Subaru Rumors..... Coming True...

[AKLGT]

^^ ah I see what you are saying. however the OP, I do know personally and I know who his sources are. For the most part, they haven't been wrong yet, however I only talk to them once in a great while. I'm sure he would know more than I, especially as of late with my much busier schedule. Until then, I'll just wait and see what 2010 will hold, it's a few years off and well.... I usually swap out cars every 2 yrs. The LGT is going on 3 yrs old in April and will be the longest I've ever owned a vehicle with my name on the title.

[Jerboa113]

I have to agree with the skepticism. I tend to have a rather.. apolcalyptic view of subaru's future with their recent decision to corollafy the wrx/sti. With the ridiuclous onset of cafe requirements any new engine is going to be short lived. The AWD puts a huge drain on these cars mpg wise.

 

I'll believe it when I see it, and check it out if I do, but if I had to take a guess at how to meet cafe with technical mpg requirements, the h6 could work with that "selective displacement" stuff that most domestics use, or a standard boxer 4 like we have now coupled with some sort of hybrid to get a technical mpg. You know in real testing it wont get it but it will give them the numbers they need to meet the standards.

[AKLGT]

I have to agree with the skepticism. I tend to have a rather.. apolcalyptic view of subaru's future with their recent decision to corollafy the wrx/sti. With the ridiuclous onset of cafe requirements any new engine is going to be short lived. The AWD puts a huge drain on these cars mpg wise.

 

I'll believe it when I see it, and check it out if I do, but if I had to take a guess at how to meet cafe with technical mpg requirements, the h6 could work with that "selective displacement" stuff that most domestics use, or a standard boxer 4 like we have now coupled with some sort of hybrid to get a technical mpg. You know in real testing it wont get it but it will give them the numbers they need to meet the standards.

I agree. afterall, I believe the craptacular stock mapping ("I" mode) was necessary in order for the car to meet the EPA requirements now. That's only going to get stricter. Also, I do not foresee SOA being able to continue only AWD vehicles in their line up. We had the last model year legacy wagon in 94?? that was FWD before they went to only AWD models. It SUCKED! I hated that car and up until my 05 LGT, I hated all subies because of how much I detested that wagon!

[SBT]

Subaru lost a lot of owner loyalty (some estimate as much as 2/3 of its base) when they switched over to FWD (not 4WD) only solutions. In typical FHI fashion, it took them nearly 10 years to finally break that mold and get back to only AWD, but when they did, they regained a lot of its loyalists back.

SBT

[goneskiian]

Not much. IIRC, the 3.0 is only about 60 lbs heavier than the 2.5. I believe Jeff removed some things, like the A/C compressor, to shed a little weight.

 

I'd have to read through those threads again to see if he gives specific weight gain, but I don't think it was much.

Found one post where he talks about it. #383

 

 

I like my wagon. I hope they bring the wagon back in the future. I'd buy another one.... Turbo diesel or H6, either would be great.

[Richard B.]

a 3.6 liter turbo eh?

 

just what would it's competition be? How much more will it cost?

 

 

the camrys and accords are not gonna jump 5-10 more k in price at the same time suby will attempt to...according to you all anyways subaru will...the competitors just slapped in a 3.5 liter 6. in 2 years they will not drop v8's.

 

it almost seems that subaru is (according to you guys/gals now) going to attempt to fill a void where there isn't one. ANYWHERE close to 40k and the 335i will easily outsell. hell, the tsx is supposed to get awd and turbo next year. so you have a 35k$ (acura) and then a 40-+k$ car (BMW). i say 35k for the acura cause it's already cracking close or is 30k before turbo and awd. i also look at the rdx for comparisons. let's not forget the lexus awd variants. infiniti's variants.

 

where exactly is subaru supposed to fit? in my eyes they will have some tough "shoes to fit" if they really want to "compete". please...let me remind you that the last gen legacy was far far far from a gt even though it was labeled as such. the current gt could the it for the next 10 years while everyone else drops 400hp 3.5 liter 6's..........blah blah blah. i bet in 10 years there will be 3.5 liter 400hp 6's.........just going on history here. i also believe subaru doesn't care that much about it's customer base. hid for example. a mazda 3 of all things have them. even a kia. i'm sorry, but apexcone is a decent product but oem iteration would be better. i do run apexcone ddm on my gt.

 

 

what's my take?

 

engine...either up the boost to 300+ and quit giving us water and drop a 3.0 turbo. dual will cost waaay to much. too many nonsense parts for what a even a decent quality single can do. you guys already argue the current gt vs 2.7tt audi engine power output. single turbo will work fine. soo much easier to simply use a 3.0 turbo.

 

suspension...either put something good or just give us decent we can upgrade. half of you all can't even drive right to begin with with a stock setup let alone an aftermarket one. aftermarket is fairly inexpensive anyways. imo, the spec b is not enough. no comprimises is what i want. not this .86 with body roll severe enough to scrape the mirror on asphalt.

 

brake...they don't even do the work now. they source it to brembo. use the same fricken parts from the impreza sti.

 

tires, wheels...see brake

 

interior...i'm actually fine the way it is now. i look at the road when i drive not at my hvac control. i'm sure you all can nit pick etc...my only gripe is the poor fitment on the sunroof trim. it sticks out at the seam where it comes together. oooh. i prefer all red gauges. not this crap we have now. but i can leave with the grips so no deal killer. as long as they don't go reverse i'll be fine.

 

tranny...some kind of sequential I would really love. either way it will have to have an auto if not. i'm fine with my current 5 eat. i hear the 2nd gen is better. for you manual guys...see brake.

 

exterior...i'm fine having a compact. it's getting heavy though as my 5eat hits 3485lbs now. going bigger will only yield a heavier car. then it will NEED the power to get it going. need bigger brakes to stop...etc...you all know where i am going with this.

 

exterior 2...DON'T MAKE IT ASS UGLY!!! we are close enough to camrys and ford fusions and b5 audi's. for the love of religious belief, give us a good front/rear bumper setup. Subaru did a good job in japan and the last get sti. no fricken reason why they can't do a proper job here. bumper beam my buttocks to anyone who trys to argue this.

 

general...car is good. i don't need nonsense techno gadgets i will never use. like vw commercials airing the ability to roll down the windows from the door lock wile holding the key. one word...retarded. a wise one would have done it through the ability of the key chain alarm like infinit did on the I30.

 

safety...subaru is one of the best imo, keep improving i say. doing a good job. maybe, just up the pace a little so they aren't soo far behind the germans. esp was on an audi back in 2001. subaru just recently added it.

 

what i wouldn't mind...

i wouldn't mind having remote access for the moon roof to vent the car though. auto close if they are gonna add rain sensing wipers like a mazda 3 has. xenons, MAYBE a rear wiper. how about windows that roll all the way down? my old mazda protege 5 had 1inch left. mazda 3 i think is all the way down. some of you want auto windows up and down. that's a meh for me. can live with or without...btw, i was interested in the mazda 3. it is a hell of a lot of car for the money.

 

 

i'm gonna stop now. i'm sure there is much more you all would like to add, agree on and disagree about. imo, of course.

[SubieDriver]

Found one post where he talks about it. #383

 

 

I like my wagon. I hope they bring the wagon back in the future. I'd buy another one.... Turbo diesel or H6, either would be great.

 

 

Thanks for wading through to find it. 50 lbs isn't much, especially considering that it includes the roll cage.

[BigT]

Dude, I'm not trying to break your ball$, but I tried to read this and I can't understand a lot of what you're saying. Can you clean it up a bit? It sounds like you have some very good points, but many of them aren't coming across clearly.

 

a 3.6 liter turbo eh?

 

just what would it's competition be? How much more will it cost?

 

 

the camrys and accords are not gonna jump 5-10 more k in price at the same time suby will attempt to...according to you all anyways subaru will...the competitors just slapped in a 3.5 liter 6. in 2 years they will not drop v8's.

 

it almost seems that subaru is (according to you guys/gals now) going to attempt to fill a void where there isn't one. ANYWHERE close to 40k and the 335i will easily outsell. hell, the tsx is supposed to get awd and turbo next year. so you have a 35k$ (acura) and then a 40-+k$ car (BMW). i say 35k for the acura cause it's already cracking close or is 30k before turbo and awd. i also look at the rdx for comparisons. let's not forget the lexus awd variants. infiniti's variants.

 

where exactly is subaru supposed to fit? in my eyes they will have some tough "shoes to fit" if they really want to "compete". please...let me remind you that the last gen legacy was far far far from a gt even though it was labeled as such. the current gt could the it for the next 10 years while everyone else drops 400hp 3.5 liter 6's..........blah blah blah. i bet in 10 years there will be 3.5 liter 400hp 6's.........just going on history here. i also believe subaru doesn't care that much about it's customer base. hid for example. a mazda 3 of all things have them. even a kia. i'm sorry, but apexcone is a decent product but oem iteration would be better. i do run apexcone ddm on my gt.

 

 

what's my take?

 

engine...either up the boost to 300+ and quit giving us water and drop a 3.0 turbo. dual will cost waaay to much. too many nonsense parts for what a even a decent quality single can do. you guys already argue the current gt vs 2.7tt audi engine power output. single turbo will work fine. soo much easier to simply use a 3.0 turbo.

 

suspension...either put something good or just give us decent we can upgrade. half of you all can't even drive right to begin with with a stock setup let alone an aftermarket one. aftermarket is fairly inexpensive anyways. imo, the spec b is not enough. no comprimises is what i want. not this .86 with body roll severe enough to scrape the mirror on asphalt.

 

brake...they don't even do the work now. they source it to brembo. use the same fricken parts from the impreza sti.

 

tires, wheels...see brake

 

interior...i'm actually fine the way it is now. i look at the road when i drive not at my hvac control. i'm sure you all can nit pick etc...my only gripe is the poor fitment on the sunroof trim. it sticks out at the seam where it comes together. oooh. i prefer all red gauges. not this crap we have now. but i can leave with the grips so no deal killer. as long as they don't go reverse i'll be fine.

 

tranny...some kind of sequential I would really love. either way it will have to have an auto if not. i'm fine with my current 5 eat. i hear the 2nd gen is better. for you manual guys...see brake.

 

exterior...i'm fine having a compact. it's getting heavy though as my 5eat hits 3485lbs now. going bigger will only yield a heavier car. then it will NEED the power to get it going. need bigger brakes to stop...etc...you all know where i am going with this.

 

exterior 2...DON'T MAKE IT ASS UGLY!!! we are close enough to camrys and ford fusions and b5 audi's. for the love of religious belief, give us a good front/rear bumper setup. Subaru did a good job in japan and the last get sti. no fricken reason why they can't do a proper job here. bumper beam my buttocks to anyone who trys to argue this.

 

general...car is good. i don't need nonsense techno gadgets i will never use. like vw commercials airing the ability to roll down the windows from the door lock wile holding the key. one word...retarded. a wise one would have done it through the ability of the key chain alarm like infinit did on the I30.

 

safety...subaru is one of the best imo, keep improving i say. doing a good job. maybe, just up the pace a little so they aren't soo far behind the germans. esp was on an audi back in 2001. subaru just recently added it.

 

what i wouldn't mind...

i wouldn't mind having remote access for the moon roof to vent the car though. auto close if they are gonna add rain sensing wipers like a mazda 3 has. xenons, MAYBE a rear wiper. how about windows that roll all the way down? my old mazda protege 5 had 1inch left. mazda 3 i think is all the way down. some of you want auto windows up and down. that's a meh for me. can live with or without...btw, i was interested in the mazda 3. it is a hell of a lot of car for the money.

 

 

i'm gonna stop now. i'm sure there is much more you all would like to add, agree on and disagree about. imo, of course.

[SLegacy99]

Im sorry folks, given that Subaru already doesnt meet the current CAFE standards I dont see them turbocharging an H6 anytime soon.

[Richard B.]

Dude, I'm not trying to break your ball$, but I tried to read this and I can't understand a lot of what you're saying. Can you clean it up a bit? It sounds like you have some very good points, but many of them aren't coming across clearly.

 

i'm not sure what subaru will do. will they price themselves out so we can find better alternatives? dunno.

 

are they gonna corrola everything? dunno.

 

1 thing is for certain...we will NOT get a leg sti for anything less than 35k. closer to 40 if you ask me. at 40k...i'm thinking 335. or simply go fp green on my current gt. i'll deal with the cafe standards in the future.

[Richard B.]

Im sorry folks, given that Subaru already doesnt meet the current CAFE standards I dont see them turbocharging an H6 anytime soon.

 

fwiw...it is average fuel economy not absolute minimum. hell, they can have a 4mpg super car if they have a 100mpg hybrid.

 

 

 

greatest question for the night...

 

 

WTF IS THE LEGACY NOT IN THE NEWEST 4 DOOR SEDAN TESTS RUNNING 4 CYLINDERS???!!!

 

they had around 7 econo cars in the 22k rang. where the hell was the legacy?

 

yeah. i just picked up the march m/t, r&t, and c&d. absolutely disgusting. the only subru being planted is the sti.

[SLegacy99]

fwiw...it is average fuel economy not absolute minimum. hell, they can have a 4mpg super car if they have a 100mpg hybrid.

 

Yes, but they don't have 100 mpg hybrid. They have to average 27.5 mpg. They're most fuel efficient cars the Legacy 2.5i and Impreza 2.5i average 23.5 mpg. That doesn't cut it especially when you have the STi that averages 19 mpg.

 

are they gonna corrola everything? dunno.

 

I think the interior of the new Corolla is pretty nice. Better than the Impreza/Forester anyway. My sister's was pretty nice too, though the steering wheel got blotchy, but I think that had something to do with the lotion she wore.

[Richard B.]

Yes, but they don't have 100 mpg hybrid. They have to average 27.5 mpg. They're most fuel efficient cars the Legacy 2.5i and Impreza 2.5i average 23.5 mpg. That doesn't cut it especially when you have the STi that averages 19 mpg.

 

 

 

I think the interior of the new Corolla is pretty nice. Better than the Impreza/Forester anyway. My sister's was pretty nice too, though the steering wheel got blotchy, but I think that had something to do with the lotion she wore.

 

 

was just trying to throw an analogy out there to make a point...

 

 

i meant the exterior design. i'm not big on interiors. never have been. i would have bought the gt if it had the wrx interior. glad it didn't though. to me there is an expectation of certain things on a car at it's given price range. that means i always assume it's decent for whatever price bracket it is in. anything more...good...less...not favorable but can be lived with.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Well,

 

If Subaru goes weak, and makes all of their cars meet the average, chances are the lineup is going to get much blander, lose mandatory AWD, and lose power, especially if they plan to keep a rally car replica, and two SUVs, and a soft-road wagon in their lineup. They don't exactly have a city-car or ultra-compact in their lineup.

 

Keep in mind, the CAFE mandates aren't instantaneous, and could be changed. They have started, but there are a few years to make this happen, if they can...

 

Theoretically, FHI could be completely bought out by Toyota, and run as a subsidiary, if it doesn't look like they can meet those kind of requirements, which I am sure would be wonderfull... Not.

 

This is why government over-regulation tends to have negative effects on companies, and consumers. Companies can't build what consumers want, and still meet the government mandates, and lose out on both fronts.

 

Companies as small as Subaru MUST be allowed to compete in the niches of the market, but they can't if they are regulated into oblivion, and their management doesn't seem to have the time or inclination to listen to the consumers.

[SubieDriver]

i'm not sure what subaru will do. will they price themselves out so we can find better alternatives? dunno.

 

are they gonna corrola everything? dunno.

 

1 thing is for certain...we will NOT get a leg sti for anything less than 35k. closer to 40 if you ask me. at 40k...i'm thinking 335. or simply go fp green on my current gt. i'll deal with the cafe standards in the future.

 

 

The Legacy GT is the counterpart the 335, while a Legacy STI would compare with the M3. Both Subies are substantially cheaper than their BMW counterpart.

 

If you're comparing a Legacy STI to the 335 at $40K, the LSTI will easily outperform it. It may even outperform (or perform comparably to) the M3, which costs $55k-$60K. The Subies still have the advantage based on price.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Wrong. You may be somewhat right that the lines stack up internally to each model in that way, but those cars don't compete directly between Subaru and BMW at all. Not even considering the price being lower for the subaru.

 

Subaru won't compete directly with the 335i or 335xi, even with a Legacy STI. Propose that on any BMW board that you choose, and see what your response is...

 

Better yet, pose a comparison between a turbo H4 for 40k with 300+hp, vs a V8 BMW M car with 400+hp...

 

Not happening, either way. Most people paying 40k or more for a sporting sedan are not going to consider a Subaru on par with much of anything from Germany at $40k or higher.

 

There is not much coming out of England for that segment (XF-R maybe someday), and Italy doesn't import Alfas to the US yet.

 

Legacy competes with other japanese cars, and somewhat the A4 or Turbo VWs. G35, TSX, IS250/350. That is where Subaru needs to focus, and to beat them, it pretty much HAS to undercut them on price, and that doesn't mean pushing 40k. STI BBS-pkg is already pushing WAY too close to $40k for a car with an econobox lineage.

 

Subaru doesn't mean the same thing in the marketplace as Infiniti, Acura, or Lexus. CERTAINLY isn't spoken in the same sentence as BMW by most people.

[loserpro2]

this just sucks for the american market - like totally.

they'd better not do stupid things like drop the 2 liter lineup for other countries cause i want a 2L when i have the money to buy my own legacy.

[jmswinger]

Wrong. You may be somewhat right that the lines stack up internally to each model in that way, but those cars don't compete directly between Subaru and BMW at all. Not even considering the price being lower for the subaru.

 

Subaru won't compete directly with the 335i or 335xi, even with a Legacy STI. Propose that on any BMW board that you choose, and see what your response is...

 

Better yet, pose a comparison between a turbo H4 for 40k with 300+hp, vs a V8 BMW M car with 400+hp...

 

Not happening, either way. Most people paying 40k or more for a sporting sedan are not going to consider a Subaru on par with much of anything from Germany at $40k or higher.

 

There is not much coming out of England for that segment (XF-R maybe someday), and Italy doesn't import Alfas to the US yet.

 

Legacy competes with other japanese cars, and somewhat the A4 or Turbo VWs. G35, TSX, IS250/350. That is where Subaru needs to focus, and to beat them, it pretty much HAS to undercut them on price, and that doesn't mean pushing 40k. STI BBS-pkg is already pushing WAY too close to $40k for a car with an econobox lineage.

 

Subaru doesn't mean the same thing in the marketplace as Infiniti, Acura, or Lexus. CERTAINLY isn't spoken in the same sentence as BMW by most people.

 

I must agree. As much as I think we all might want to believe that the Legacy GT is a giant killer it is still not up the the BMW.

 

Now if you wanted to compare the Legacy STi to a 335x I think you would have a chance only if you talked about performance. I am not sure if you can honestly sit in a 335x and say that the material is at the level of a Subaru even with the BMW price cutting.

 

As mush as I think the BMW are abit over priced they are still a better feeling machine. I think the target for the Subaru company would have to be the Jap Luxo brands and then hope they can match up well with Lexus. They should target the Acura brand as they don't really have anything special and most of their cars are rather bland.

 

It will be some interesting times in the future to see what Subaru does. Would it not be possible to kill off the Legacy model and just bring out the Impreza to NA. They could bring out the desiel and see if that can work. I know if they did this they would not be even close to getting in to the same status as any of the luxo brands but I might get them through the next few years.

 

One idea I was thinking and is more of a long shot. If Toyota did buy out Subaru could Subaru not ask to get a IS from them. They could then put in their AWD and some Subaru engines. They could then introduce it as a new legacy..

[oddseth]

jm - your idea about the is is an interesting one as it would provide a chassis with better weight balance (front axle further forward), but Subaru would definitely have to come up with a way to change the layout on their drivetrain to meet these dimensions. Maybe, however, they can take the R&D money they would have spent on a new chassis and put it towards a new drivetrain layout. I still doubt it would happen.

[SubieDriver]

Probably the best way to make it work in the IS chassis is to make it RWD. With Subaru's AWD, the entire engine sits ahead of the front axle, because the front half-shafts come right out of the transmission. They would have to change the whole front structure to make it work in the IS.

[jmswinger]

Ya it does sound like it is alot of work. But one of the good things about Toyota buying into Subaru is the options and hope that something good might come down to Subaru.

[Jerboa113]

1 good thing in a sea of bad still makes you drown.

 

I was going to detail some of that below but.. I'll summarize my entire statement for those of you who don't want to read lengthy comments.

 

Toyota sucks, their cars suck, Lexus sucks, and they have no idea what an automotive enthusiast is.. they've never met one and if they did they wouldn't know it.

 

ah yes.. the opinion stated above is the opinion of DarkFox1 and is in noway shared by the forum, community, or sponsors of this comment.

[SLegacy99]

I dont know if you know, but there is this car coming out called the IS-F that is more powerful, faster, more fuel efficient than an STi.

[BigT]

I dont know if you know, but there is this car coming out called the IS-F that is more powerful, faster, more fuel efficient than an STi.

 

I think I might have heard that somewhere

 

In all seriousness though, I know people hate on the SI drive system, but it seems to solve the emissions issues. They can sell it with 3 settings, like they do now. Setting 1: Limp mode, you might get beat by a kid on a bike, but you'll meet the standards, and the other two can be balls to the walls mode. I don't see what the big deal is.

 

On a side note, I think that Subaru should be watching the release of the new skyline very closely. This is going to tell japanese manufacturers a lot about what they can and can't do in this market. That car is bad ass, but it is japanese. Will someone really pay $75K+ for a nissan? This should tell Subaru what to do with their cars. If that thing flops, they need to hold back on the Legacy Sti. If that thing sells, than they should stop being baby's and build a bad ass legacy pushing around 400HP that will beat an M3 price it at $45 (10 grand less than the M3).

[iyalla]

I'll tell you what is going to happen for the USA...

 

No STI Legacy (its a pipe dream, get over it, you get the Impreza STI so be happy)

No STI Forester (see above. Enjoy the XT)

No wagon Legacy of any kind (sedan is perilously close to joining it in oblivion)

No GT Legacy

No diesels (until Honda, Toyota and Nissan have it in their USA lineup)

 

The 3.6L may come but it if it does it will end up in the same place the 3.0L is now, and that is in an Outback LL Bean and Legacy Limited Sedan. Any special turbo version of this motor will never make it to this country, they canceled the GT remember?

 

See you in 2012 when I will look back at this thread and say I was right