Subaru Rumors..... Coming True...

[Beanboy]

CARB is insane, especially now since they are ranting about C02.

 

If CARB really wanted cleaner emissions, they would have gone after trucks first and stepped up with roadside/toll emissions checking years ago. A test that a well-tuned, warmed turbo uncatted vehicle can pass just fine. The poor and illegals would be hit the hardest though, and that would cause an even bigger uproar.

 

One crappy oil smoking taxi/old diesel truck is equal to thousands of new cars in terms of emissions.

[oddseth]

Well, I just think that their rulings are often way too harsh and instead of applying them gradually to help ease the cost of developing new technologies, they are much more strict. In the end, we are the ones who will wind up incurring the greater cost.

[oddseth]

CARB is insane, especially now since they are ranting about C02.

 

If CARB really wanted cleaner emissions, they would have gone after trucks first and stepped up with roadside/toll emissions checking years ago. A test that a well-tuned, warmed turbo uncatted vehicle can pass just fine. The poor and illegals would be hit the hardest though, and that would cause an even bigger uproar.

 

One crappy oil smoking taxi/old diesel truck is equal to thousands of new cars in terms of emissions.

 

+1 on the poor and immigrants being hit the hardest. But, when you drive down the road and see a car blowing blue or black smoke out the tail pipe, it is usually a POS being driven by someone who cannot afford to have the car tuned to improve emissions. These cars pollute at a much higher rate than even newer performance cars. It is unfortunate, but driving is a privilege, not a right.

 

The main problem, at least where I live in DC, is that there are way too many people driving around with expired emissions testing certificates or they are granted temporary approval from the testing station pending that they take their car to have it fixed (which rarely happens). Also, in places like Va, you can slip your buddy at the gas station $20 to look the other way when your car doesn't pass emissions and get your approval sticker.

[oddseth]

At any rate, emissions and fuel economy discussions aside, I hope that what cwmiller says is true. Maybe Subaru has been holding back any big advancements on it's other line of cars to give us a true high performance sports sedan. Let's just hope they can tap some of their creative energy (and perhaps from Toyota as well) to create a high-po car that is more efficient and easy on the environment.

[BigInALegacy]

[SLegacy99]

I heard that there is a quad turbo H8 coming.

[IwannaSportSedan]

I'll believe it when I see it. We were rumored to be getting a surprise at Sema, too, and nothing, and nothing at the major US auto shows, either.

 

And if it does arrive, it had better not be short-changed like the Legacy is now. And a Wagon had better be available. I want a sedan, but a wagon would be fair.

[Guest]

I really do hope that the rumors that next gen Outback will be based off Exiga are true. That would open the way to bring Legacy wagon back.

 

I'd say it pretty obvious that Exiga is not a replacement for Legacy wagon in Japan/Europe, rather a competition for compact vans such as Mazda MPV, Honda Odyssey, Opel Zafira.

[Guest]

The new Outback better not look anything like that Exiga!

 

Why not? When they strip it of the concept-car elements it will be okay looking space wagon. If they don't go crazy with plastic cladding it may actually look decent in Outback incarnation.

[Beanboy]

Forget the high powered offerings. Subaru already missed the boat with the diesels and hybrids. I bet somebody buys them off FHI within the decade.

 

Just think how well 05+ Outback would have sold with diesel in Europe/Down Under

 

Even new Tribeca if introduced with diesel, or hell, even the new Forester.

 

Another year before CVTs/direct injection/diesel becomes available? No hybrid?

 

Subaru won't survive.

 

Subaru should have offered the Justy with at least a mild hybrid already in European markets. Maybe offered it hybrid-only in the US with the recent redesign.

 

Subaru already should have released DI on turbo models in the US.

 

Too little too late Subaru.

[Renesis8]

Frankly - I suspect that the idea of a FI 3.6L (without major mods to the block, i.e., larger overall), is wishful thinking. Upgrading this block from 3.0L to 3.6L created some significant engineering challenges, just to cool this NA engine, while keeping it dimensionally the same as the 3.0L. I can't imagine that enough additional cooling could be found to "cool" the 3.6L engine under FI. Supercharing being a possible exception and even then, I still think the margins are too narrow to risk it. Would be one BAMOFO if it were to happen. Just look at what Jeff's Perrin and Sponagle are doing with the FI 3.0 H6s, even with very mild tuning.

 

I am wondering though, how much bigger the Leggy is going to get in 2010, now that the Impreza is built on the 4th Gen, Leggy chassis? If it gets dimensionally longer/wider, there might be room for an increased block 3.6 or even a 4.4 H8? Now you're talking!

SBT

 

 

If Porsche can do it, Subaru should!

 

They could learn an awful lot from Porsche engines, now that they're increasing their flat6s to 3.6L. TT Flat6 3.6L? Think 911 TT, theres enough cooling for that car with the engine placed in a very very bad location, I don't see how Subaru can't pull it off =)

[SLegacy99]

I don't see how Subaru can't pull it off =)

Its what makes a Subaru, a Subaru.

[GrayT]

Who cares what they're coming out with?!

 

I love how everyone's "source" have much different rumors.

[IwannaSportSedan]

If Porsche can do it, Subaru should!

 

They could learn an awful lot from Porsche engines, now that they're increasing their flat6s to 3.6L. TT Flat6 3.6L? Think 911 TT, theres enough cooling for that car with the engine placed in a very very bad location, I don't see how Subaru can't pull it off =)

 

Where do you think Fuji Heavy got the idea in the first place??? Japan and Germany shared a lot of tech during WWII, and that knowledge lasted into reconstruction under American supervision in both countries. Heck, GM even tried flat rear engine cars, with the corvair.

 

But FHI pulled some design considerations, and the general benefits of the boxer design from Ferdinand Porsche's work, and BMW motorcycles, and other horizontally opposed engines, mostly german sources.

 

But the EZ30x engine is a different development than a Porsche flat 6, though. it isn't a carbon copy.

 

The 3.0R engine is the basis for the 3.6 liter in the Tribeca. The block length and cylinder pitch are the same. Cylinder pitch is the measurement from bore center to bore center of the next cylinder, and determines lots of things. thickness of the block between the bores, which affects cooling jackets, and effecting the length of the block overall.

 

With a short cylinder pitch, there is limited cooling jacket room, which limits how much the bore size can be at it's maximum without cracking, or breaking through into the water jackets.

 

The Legacy and Tribeca chassis has a limit built in, as the frame rails are only so far apart, and the engine has to fit between them. That limits the deck height of the block, as well. The dimension of the crankshaft center to the same point at the center point of the block deck, which x2 is the width of the engine, plus x2 the height of the heads from the deck surface to the valve cover, and you have the engine's width. (generally).

 

The block deck height can't be increased much and still have the engine fit between the frame rails.

 

In order to get 3.6 liters out of an engine with the same block length, cylinder pitch, deck height, you have to come up with some compromises.

 

One, increase bore to the maximum that the block will allow. That still won't get you to 3.6 liters, though.

 

The other thing they did was increase the stroke length, without increasing deck height, and they did that by using asymmetrical connecting rods. I believe they likened the con rods to lamb chops or other curved bones, and by low-clearance pistons, where the piston rings, and the wrist pins are very close to the piston's crown. That makes the piston less robust, the rings closer together, and the piston less resistant piston slap, and rotation in the bore.

 

The increased bore plus the increased stroke does put the displacement up to ~3.6 liters. And it works, for a non-turbo engine, along with cooling enhancements to ensure that such a pushed to the dimensional limit engine doesn't overheat, and compromise what little margin for error is left in a thin-wall block.

 

But added pressure from a turbo throws a monkey wrench into things. it pushes parts harder, including thin pistons, bent-by-design con rods, and thinner-than-some bore linings. AND much more heat from a hotter burning force-induced engine, onto an already hard-working cooling system.

 

I am sure that with Subaru's engineering credentials, there is a margin of safety designed in, even with the 3.6 engine. But that doesn't mean that turbocharging will maintain Subaru's reputation for being very, very reliable.

 

I imagine that they don't want to jeopardize their reputation, or their product by shortcutting it to the point of risking failure. And throwing a turbo onto a 3.6 may just be tempting fate a bit too much.

 

The Porsche engine doesn't necessarily share the same space restrictions, probably has blocks engineered for more capacity, probably with more oversquare dimensions (bore diameter wider than stroke is long) and more margin to increase bore size.

 

Porsche also is one of the most profitable car companies in the world, and can afford to cast multiple engine block sizes, just for displacement sake, where Subaru modified the 3.0R block for more displacement.

 

The porsche 2.7 Boxster/Cayman block is probably different than the 3.2-3.4 Boxster S/Cayman S, and old 996 block, is probably different than the 3.6-3.8 996-997 block, which is definitely different than the 3.6 GT3 race block. But all are Porsche flat 6 motors.

 

Subaru doesn't have the money to manufacture different engines just for displacement. I would even think that the EZ-series are probably based loosely on their 4-cylinder models, anyway, rather than a completely clean-sheet-design engine. So some considerations for designing a 2.0 liter H4 got transferred to a 3.0 liter H6, and are still present in the 3.6.

 

I hope that subaru can build a twin-turbo H6 for a Legacy STI. I think it would be a HELL of a car, if they do it right. But there is more to the 3.6 than just bolting a turbo or two to it.

[hammerhead]

my friend owns a subaru dealership and talked about the v6 turbo lgt......... 6 years ago!

[IwannaSportSedan]

I could agree with you, there. a slightly bored and stroked, forged internals, turbocharged H6 seems like a very good engine to me.

 

They probably couldn't have done that with good fuel economy on 87 octane, though.

[Guest]

I could agree with you, there. a slightly bored and stroked, forged internals, turbocharged H6 seems like a very good engine to me.

 

They probably couldn't have done that with good fuel economy on 87 octane, though.

 

que? 87 octane?

 

Anyway, the rumor is Subaru has had H6 turbo for a long time, but did not have strong enough transmission for it. STI 6spd is plenty strong so I don't know how credible it is...

[bosco]

All the secrets are kept in AKLGT's undergarments

 

bosco

[AKLGT]

Words come directly from the district rep at subaru. AKLGT husband and I might work at the same place. And maybe the rep and I spoke for a few. And maybe the conversation never happened, maybe it did . All I can say is he is a nice guy and very enthused about what is up and coming (and maybe is a rep for suby ). He said the 3.6L turbo is being run right now, but the problem is the up and coming emissions for the next few years that the motor would have to meet. Diesel coming 2010 calender year, a year after new legacy/outback launch. The new forester slated for auto only with turbo, full STI version in the works. Ok check my source on this, new forester with the premium package wont have heated seats like current car. will be this summer when they offer heated seats with the premium package in the 09's, and then the NW will only get premium packages with heated seats once available. New forester said to be at the ports. suppose to have to dealers by end of February.

OMG! I just realized who you were! DUH! :lol:

 

ya, didn't get to talk with the rep while he was here (at the Conti party). I was a bit busy getting my drink and dance on.

now hubby has another spy on the forums.

 

DID YOU ASK IF THE 09 STI WILL HAVE DSG??????????? I'm placing my order for my STI next month or first of April. Ron says to order next month to ensure May delivery and Chris says to order in April since they are arriving quickly. when????

[cwmiller]

Well it was at our dealerships party, dont think the rep had to much to drink when I talked to him (close to the beginning of the party ). AKLGT (Hope), it is taking about 6-7 weeks for these to show. We have two on the way suppose to be here in 3 weeks or so. I would order yours 1st/mid march if you want it 1st of may. I ask the rep about diesel every time I see him, and this is the first time he has given me a year for it. He said the 3.6L is running and a monster, but the up coming emissions might be to much cost to meet them. His words were "might have to scrap it." U know SOA, if they cant see it in all 50 states, they wont make it. Sorry guys no pics... I will see what I can do.

[BigInALegacy]

Oh, FYI... new STi dyno'd higher than the new Evo... food for thought.

[Guest]

Well it was at our dealerships party, dont think the rep had to much to drink when I talked to him (close to the beginning of the party ). AKLGT (Hope), it is taking about 6-7 weeks for these to show. We have two on the way suppose to be here in 3 weeks or so. I would order yours 1st/mid march if you want it 1st of may. I ask the rep about diesel every time I see him, and this is the first time he has given me a year for it. He said the 3.6L is running and a monster, but the up coming emissions might be to much cost to meet them. His words were "might have to scrap it." U know SOA, if they cant see it in all 50 states, they wont make it. Sorry guys no pics... I will see what I can do.

 

3.6L turbo emissions or diesel emissions?

[SBT]

3.6L turbo emissions or diesel emissions?

 

^ I believe he means the T-3.6L. The diesel has had much more work done on it, for a longer period of time, and I believe will be a 50-state compliant vehicle. That is if we can Governor Swarzzenshriver to back off of his latest mandates here in Cali.

SBT

[sirsimon]

It will be interesting to see what develops for the LGT in the future. I have a hard time believing that Subaru will make the car much more expensive/powerful with sales being what they are. Some people complain about the car's fuel econ as it currently is. Also, dealers have seldom seemed to have more information about future models than anyone else. The number one dealer (based on volume) in the country is here in PDX and they never seem to know any more than anyone else surfing the web.

[SubieDriver]

my friend owns a subaru dealership and talked about the v6 turbo lgt......... 6 years ago!

 

 

That's because they had a running twin-turbo H6 3.0, putting out 400hp & 400 lb/ft of torque, in the B11S concept car in 2003 (I'm sure development started a couple years earlier). At the time, Subaru clearly stated that the reason they had a 5-spd auto tranny in the B11S was because they didn't have a manual that could handle the torque.

 

When the first pre-production models of the 2004 JDM (2005 USDM) Legacy were seen, the dual exhaust led some to believe that the TT H6 from the B11S was in it. Alas, that wasn't the case.

 

There have been persistent rumors of the possibility of a turbo H6 coming to the Legacy over the last 6 years, but emissions has usually been the excuse for it never appearing.

 

It seems that emissions is once again the issue for the new TT 3.6 rumor.