IwannaSportSedan Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 que? 87 octane? Anyway, the rumor is Subaru has had H6 turbo for a long time, but did not have strong enough transmission for it. STI 6spd is plenty strong so I don't know how credible it is... Wasn't one of the big things about the 3.6 in the Tribeca that it uses unleaded instead of the 3.0R, which requires premium, and makes the same or a bit more power simultaneously. Maybe I am misremembering... But the thing is, with an up-tuned ~3.2 liter light-pressure turbo H6, you are probably not going to get better mileage than a NA 3.0R, and you are probably not going to be able to use 87 octane and get the power from a turbo motor that a larger displacement NA would provide. More than likely, any turbo H6 would be thirstier, and drink high-test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubieDriver Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 You are correct, sir! The 3.6 has a smidge more hp, a healthy dollop of more torque, and runs on 87-octane, and gets slightly better mpg than the 3.0. I think designing it for 87 sets the stage for a healthy turbo 3.6 (which would require 91, of course). With the 3.0 already requiring 91 (or at least strongly recommending 91), it's hard to get much more power out of it without requiring 93-octane. The 3.6 gives more headroom for turbocharging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigT Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Wasn't one of the big things about the 3.6 in the Tribeca that it uses unleaded instead of the 3.0R, which requires premium, and makes the same or a bit more power simultaneously. Maybe I am misremembering... You are correct sir! Seems ironic that a lot of other car manufacturers are going to be facing the same, or similar problems. The new 335i (twin turbo 6 cylinder) must be facing a similar issue. Subaru's core competency is engineering. They must be able to get this done, but the question is; Will it cost too much money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 The 3.6 gives more headroom for turbocharging. due to the compromises of stuffing 3.6 liters of swept volume in the same block dimensions of the 3.0R, I am not sure that the 3.6 is well suited, as is, for turbocharging. I went through that in post 41, above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubieDriver Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 I meant that the 3.6 was better suited than the 3.0. I was thinking mainly of compression ratios and fuel requirements. I agree that your previous points do give pause for thought. Hopefully the Subie engineers can work things out. With the Tribeca being a bigger vehicle than the Legacy, does it have more space between the frame rails? With the Legacy moving to the Tribeca chassis, it should also gain more space, setting the stage for a better-designed engine - maybe a 2nd-gen 3.6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKLGT Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Well it was at our dealerships party, dont think the rep had to much to drink when I talked to him (close to the beginning of the party ). AKLGT (Hope), it is taking about 6-7 weeks for these to show. We have two on the way suppose to be here in 3 weeks or so. I would order yours 1st/mid march if you want it 1st of may. I ask the rep about diesel every time I see him, and this is the first time he has given me a year for it. He said the 3.6L is running and a monster, but the up coming emissions might be to much cost to meet them. His words were "might have to scrap it." U know SOA, if they cant see it in all 50 states, they wont make it. Sorry guys no pics... I will see what I can do. no, I don't care about diesel. I want a true DSG box, like the Evo X has... dual clutch, no loss of power or torque in changing gears. oh well... nm, i'll keep watching NASIOC. Alrighty, I'll tt the guys this afternoon. gots to pick up a few items for my biz acct. I know about the 3 on the way, just not what I want or colors. Wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle yeah!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 I meant that the 3.6 was better suited than the 3.0. I was thinking mainly of compression ratios and fuel requirements. I agree that your previous points do give pause for thought. Hopefully the Subie engineers can work things out. With the Tribeca being a bigger vehicle than the Legacy, does it have more space between the frame rails? With the Legacy moving to the Tribeca chassis, it should also gain more space, setting the stage for a better-designed engine - maybe a 2nd-gen 3.6. Maybe in the future, it will have wider rails (which means wider track, and wider car) But the Tribeca's frame rails are adapted from the Outback (and thus the whole legacy/outback line), and since the Impreza, and resulting Forester is also derived from Legacy, some things are fairly similar across the entire line. I don't think the tribeca's front frame rails are any wider than Legacy's are. Most of the modifications to the chassis was for the passenger cabin size increase, and the new rear suspension for rear load floor, and third row seat compatibility. I think the front end of the chassis remained mostly the same, under the skin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axis008 Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Any word on what the '09 Legacy might have that's different? Haha. I figure it's minor things. -ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddseth Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 I meant that the 3.6 was better suited than the 3.0. I was thinking mainly of compression ratios and fuel requirements. I agree that your previous points do give pause for thought. Hopefully the Subie engineers can work things out. With the Tribeca being a bigger vehicle than the Legacy, does it have more space between the frame rails? With the Legacy moving to the Tribeca chassis, it should also gain more space, setting the stage for a better-designed engine - maybe a 2nd-gen 3.6. Not necessarily true, you can take the 3.0 and decrease the stroke (stroker kit!) by a few millimeters and decrease the compression ratio and maintaining the same distance between your cylinders. On a second note, I would love to hear the exhaust note from an H-6 Subie Turbo! The tt I-6 motor in the 335 sounds great, but I would think that a tt H-6 would be much stronger and more intimidating! Think Porsche Turbo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubieDriver Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Well, if they follow through on the S-Concept, maybe we'll get an S402 for '09. Then again, if it happens, it's likely to be JDM-only, since the S401 was (though that would be disappointing). I think all the S20x models were also JDM-only, though I could be mistaken. I'm still hoping they'll bring out something for Subaru's 40th year in the US. They don't have much time left, as the 360 came here in 1968. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubieDriver Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 ... On a second note, I would love to hear the exhaust note from an H-6 Subie Turbo! The tt I-6 motor in the 335 sounds great, but I would think that a tt H-6 would be much stronger and more intimidating! Think Porsche Turbo! There's a lot of info on Nasioc regarding Jeff Perrin's and Jeff Sponaugle's STIs. They both took Tribeca 3.0s and stuffed them into the Impreza. I believe Perrin's was pushing 500hp. Not sure about Sponaugle's. Anyway, there was a video made by Jeff P that had some good drive-by shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubieDriver Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 A good place to start: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=959768 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddseth Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 I remember reading about that in my Auto Week or another magazine. That must be a scary fast ride! I wonder how much weight it adds to the WRX's nose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubieDriver Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Not much. IIRC, the 3.0 is only about 60 lbs heavier than the 2.5. I believe Jeff removed some things, like the A/C compressor, to shed a little weight. I'd have to read through those threads again to see if he gives specific weight gain, but I don't think it was much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Wasn't one of the big things about the 3.6 in the Tribeca that it uses unleaded instead of the 3.0R, which requires premium, and makes the same or a bit more power simultaneously. Maybe I am misremembering... It's true that 3.6 is tuned to run on 87. It does not mean 3.6 FI would. It could but it would a poor idea for an FI application. Likewise I believe 3.6 NA could be retuned for 91+ octane and get some more powah. FWIW, I am not an expert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubieDriver Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 In the Tribeca, I think Subaru felt they needed to provide an 87-octane engine to sell well in the SUV segment. In the Legacy, the 3.0R is one of their top-of-the-line models, and high-end models are expected to take premium, so they could easily make the 3.6 also burn 91-octane, and have it be a higher-performance engine than that in the Tribeca. So, with higher compression and direct injection, it could easily be a 300+ hp engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBT Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 due to the compromises of stuffing 3.6 liters of swept volume in the same block dimensions of the 3.0R, I am not sure that the 3.6 is well suited, as is, for turbocharging. I went through that in post 41, above. I agree - that's the point I was making in post 19. above. If you look at all the Subaru promotional engineering reviews, videos and other Subaru-based comments, the 3.6L was totally reengineered to run cooler AND take advantage of being able to run on 87 octane with some margin for towing/capacity loaded situtations in the Tribeca. But - FI will, IMHO, stretch the 3.6L's cooling capacity under boosted conditions to the point that the towing/capacity loading in a Beca (or Legacy) would be too marginal. Just my $.02 thoughts. SBT - Pro amore Dei et patriam et populum - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubieDriver Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Regarding towing: That's all the more reason to offer a high-compression or boosted 3.6 in the Legacy. People don't tow large boats/trailers with a family sedan. Leave the Tribeca a lower-compression engine, and offer the higher-power engine in the Legacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigT Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Regarding towing: That's all the more reason to offer a high-compression or boosted 3.6 in the Legacy. People don't tow large boats/trailers with a family sedan. Leave the Tribeca a lower-compression engine, and offer the higher-power engine in the Legacy. A lot of people use their legacys to tow things. For Subaru to say, no towing, just simply wouldn't work. More people would be pissed about that, than would be happy about the increased performance. I think what most people in this thread are saying is that currently, the 3.6L H6 in the Tribeca is not strong enough and or doesn't have the cooling capabilities neccesary for it to be turned into a forced induction, or FI engine. The questions remain: 1. Can Subaru overcome these issues? 2. Is it cost effective for Subaru to overcome these issues? 3. Will there be increased fuel emissions laws that will hinder the design/production of this engine? 4. Will this help them sell their cars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBT Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Regarding towing: That's all the more reason to offer a high-compression or boosted 3.6 in the Legacy. People don't tow large boats/trailers with a family sedan. Leave the Tribeca a lower-compression engine, and offer the higher-power engine in the Legacy. But they do with a wagon, and I would expect there to be a wagon back in the Legacy mix, especially if the Outback goes off in another direction. SBT - Pro amore Dei et patriam et populum - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
target82 Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Who cares what they're coming out with?! I love how everyone's "source" have much different rumors. The reason for this is that the people that really know what the changes are cannot reveal them without definitely getting fired from their job. I would say by now everything has been decided for the 2009 MY and likely some testers out there on the road. The new models, probably have body and engine choices made at least 12-18 months before model launch. The cars have to be crash tested, emissions for where ever they are sold and a host of other tests, goverment regulations, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigT Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 The reason for this is that the people that really know what the changes are cannot reveal them without definitely getting fired from their job. I would say by now everything has been decided for the 2009 MY and likely some testers out there on the road. The new models, probably have body and engine choices made at least 12-18 months before model launch. The cars have to be crash tested, emissions for where ever they are sold and a host of other tests, goverment regulations, etc. I think he was just pointing out that some people's sources are obviously full of $hit! We all know that Subaru makes decisions about the car a while before they produce/sell it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viber Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Since Subaru does not do much of anything exclusively for the Fat American Domestic Market, I will wait for news from the JDM as it will probably have a lower bullshit quotient Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKLGT Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 I think he was just pointing out that some people's sources are obviously full of $hit! We all know that Subaru makes decisions about the car a while before they produce/sell it. not necessarily. Most will talk about it, but they cannot take pics or post pics. I had an idea of what the new STI would look like long before it was actually released because a certain someone actually SAW it in Japan but had to sign an agreement, no pics or posting of any kind. The actually product vs what what described and imagined in my own mind do not do the actual vehicle justice. Wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle wiggle yeah!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigT Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 not necessarily. Most will talk about it, but they cannot take pics or post pics. I had an idea of what the new STI would look like long before it was actually released because a certain someone actually SAW it in Japan but had to sign an agreement, no pics or posting of any kind. The actually product vs what what described and imagined in my own mind do not do the actual vehicle justice. I was actually referring to the people who've had sources that are saying things that directly oppose what other peoples sources are saying. Hypothetically speaking, if you say there will be a twin turbo H6 USDM Legacy Sti in 2010 and I say there will not be a USDM Legacy sti and the Legacy will be using the same powerplant that we are now, then one of us must be wrong. Some people make outlandish statements on teh internets, particularly this board. I'm not discrediting sources, or denying the complexity of their situation (ie confidentiality agreements), but there are some people who just make things up to sound cool (which is pretty lame because impressing people on the internet with your insider knowledge is pretty much the exact opposite of cool ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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