f85stealth Posted February 1, 2008 Posted February 1, 2008 Well I finally gave in. After times where i would have my car stereo on low no subwoofers and 30 minutes in the battery dies, or the other day when I was working and had some people sitting in my car with the same scenario.....dead, I HAVE HAD IT!. I am tired of the stock battery unable to hold a charge to do anything of enjoyment with the car off. I use to have a piece of crap Wal-Mart battery in my other vehicle and I could have the stereo full blast with my subwoofers cranked half the day before I showed signs of weakening. Its a fact the stock batteries in out vehicle are horrible. So what can you do you might ask?! Well like others I went out and bought a Optima Yellow top deep cycle battery....the cream of the crop.....and it should be for the 200 bones needed to lay down to purchase one. So you might think well throw it in and problem solved right?! WRONG!! I am a curious kind of guy and I liek to go by the facts. So I compared the stock Subaru battery with the Optima Yellow Top before I even made the purchse. Unfortunately finding any sort of technical data on the Subaru brand battery was near impossible. But here is what i did find. Subaru battery: 60 month warranty......550 CCA (cold cranking amps) Optima Yellow Top: 12 month warranty.....650 CCA....deep cycle.....no spill I wondered well performance wise the Optima on paper is clearly superior what do i have to lose?! So I went out and made my purchase. Now heres the test I performed to see who was the real winner. Subaru battery: voltage checked with battery cold sitting with car off for approximately 2 hours. 12V. voltage checked with a short drive aroudn the block and car in the off position. 12.2V. voltage with car at idle 14V. voltage drop test. Car off stereo to max track 81 on the CD player voltage from 12-11.8V in a matter of 3 minutes. The last check I did was the most important one to me. At 11.8V this is getting dangerously low to start a vehicle. Optima Yellow Top: voltage checked with battery cold right off the shelf vehicle never started with in the car off possition. 12.2V. voltage checked with a short drive around the block (same distance) and car in the off position. 12.6V. voltage with car at idle 14.2V. voltage drop test. Car off stereo to max track 81 on the CD player voltage from 12.6-11.8V in a matter of 3-4 minutes. So my conclusion.......200 bones lost. But you make the call. I will be contacting Optima directly to get feedback from them. I will update when I hear back. Hope this helps guys.
jvento Posted February 1, 2008 Posted February 1, 2008 Optima yellow top works for me and I have a jl1000/1amp and a 450/4 with 2 caps on both. Might want to go with thicker gauge wire. And put a cap on your sub amp. It all depends on how many watts your putting out.
fweasel Posted February 1, 2008 Posted February 1, 2008 A deep cycle battery will help with your playback while the car isn't running issue, but no "Real" system should be played w/o the car running for extended periods of time anyway. Its the alternators job to power the stereo, not the battery. A deep cycle battery is designed to recover better from repeated discharges where as a conventional battery is not. With that said, the yellow tops also do not take well to complete discharges, for example in a winter storage scenario. They won't make it through one winter like that. I know. Twice. You need two things, IMO: #1, a bigger alternator and B, stop rocking out for 30 minutes with the engine shut off. ignore him, he'll go away.
fweasel Posted February 1, 2008 Posted February 1, 2008 Optima yellow top works for me and I have a jl1000/1amp and a 450/4 with 2 caps on both. Might want to go with thicker gauge wire. And put a cap on your sub amp. It all depends on how many watts your putting out. Caps will do nothing for his situation. They will not stop the amplifiers from consuming the amount of power the volume knob asks them to. They do not create power, they store it. Caps help with large momentary current demand spikes (.i.e. subwoofer hits) and can also help buffer the electrical draw against the complicated electrical systems of todays cars. Also, larger power wire, if anything, will allow his amplifiers to draw more power (good for an audio system) which would only exacerbate the issue he's experiencing. ignore him, he'll go away.
rao Posted February 1, 2008 Posted February 1, 2008 If the car's rocking, don't bother knocking Weasel is right; the battery isn't a problem. Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT
msmith Posted February 1, 2008 Posted February 1, 2008 Interstate Megatron for me... never let me down... ever. http://www.interstatebatteries.com/estore/search.asp?details=1&mscssid=V3DULR8THEF38J8URA520UARM0HP31H8&Ntt=MTP%2D35&N=0&Dx=mode+matchboolean&part_number=MTP%2D35&Nty=0&D=MTP%2D35&Nu=Part+Number&Ntx=mode+matchboolean&part_desc=Mega%2DTron+Plus+%2D+85+Months+%2D+640+CCA&Ns=product+Type%7C0%7C%7CRank%7C1&Ntk=SearchGroup&js=1 http://www.interstatebatteries.com/estore/zoom_image_pop_up.asp?Image_Name=ibs_MTP-35.jpg Manville Smith JL Audio, Inc.
CzarDestructo Posted February 1, 2008 Posted February 1, 2008 Wait? You just checked the voltage at seemingly random periods and thats how you determined if the battery was worth it or not? " At 11.8V this is getting dangerously low to start a vehicle." OK, voltage, unless it's extremely low and unreasonable, shouldn't matter. Anything above 11 volts should be just dandy. What your starting motor wants is AMPERAGE, lots of it! That is why cold cranking amps is so important to a lot of owners who use their cars in cold climates. This is where your Optima has a 100 amp advantage (probably more considering the CCA of your stock battery has degraded with time). But honestly, you're from Florida! CCA should be the least of your concern. Now for the crux of your issues, your battery went dead with a little bit of stereo usage. If this was your main gripe with the battery then you should be looking at the batteries capacity, which is rated in Ampere-hour(Ah). This is how many amps the battery can pump out sustained over a one hour period. Go double check the aH of you two batteries and compare, and there you'll have your real comparison.
CzarDestructo Posted February 1, 2008 Posted February 1, 2008 Optima yellow top works for me and I have a jl1000/1amp and a 450/4 with 2 caps on both. Might want to go with thicker gauge wire. And put a cap on your sub amp. It all depends on how many watts your putting out. Wire gauge won't effect the draw the amp has on the battery unless you're taking into account the resistivity of the wire itself. Also, the capacitor is a load until it is fully charged, so this would actually have a negative effect in some cases. Also if you're system is too powerful for the cap and its constantly struggling to recharge then it actually acts as a drain on the system instead. Also, larger power wire, if anything, will allow his amplifiers to draw more power (good for an audio system) which would only exacerbate the issue he's experiencing. Cable size won't allow it to draw more power, changing the fuse will however. The load doesn't care how it's connected to the power source, whatever it wants it will take, weather this means it heats up the cable so much that the insulation melts or that it pops the fuse is up to how the person does the installation
Prime Power Posted February 1, 2008 Posted February 1, 2008 I have had an optima yellow top since jan 2001 is several vehicles all with nice big stereos and I still have the same battery in my avalanche going strong. That being said, optima was bought out in 2002 and is no longer what it used to be. So much so I will no longer purchase an optima even though before that was all I used to buy.
f85stealth Posted February 5, 2008 Author Posted February 5, 2008 in my original post i gave scenarious how other batteries have out performed this one and those other batteries did not cost 220 smackers......yes CCA's is needed to start the car but without the voltage behind it , it does you no good. other points brought up is cable size and farad caps which are all non relevant to what my test has proved.......but i am using 2 awg and a 40 farad cap my goal was to play my stereo at only a moderate level for an hour or so while washing the car or doing other odds and ends.......i performed this test at an extreme only to prove which battery was superior without the wait of an hour long test....
CzarDestructo Posted February 5, 2008 Posted February 5, 2008 Please refer to my first post, I'm telling you as an engineer your testing proved absolutely nothing at all (which is actually what you WANT to be hearing, you didn't waste you money!). If there is anything unclear just ask, I'd be more than willing to better explain anything as I have a tendency of falling short in conveying material.
f85stealth Posted February 5, 2008 Author Posted February 5, 2008 Wait? You just checked the voltage at seemingly random periods and thats how you determined if the battery was worth it or not? " At 11.8V this is getting dangerously low to start a vehicle." OK, voltage, unless it's extremely low and unreasonable, shouldn't matter. Anything above 11 volts should be just dandy. What your starting motor wants is AMPERAGE, lots of it! That is why cold cranking amps is so important to a lot of owners who use their cars in cold climates. This is where your Optima has a 100 amp advantage (probably more considering the CCA of your stock battery has degraded with time). But honestly, you're from Florida! CCA should be the least of your concern. Now for the crux of your issues, your battery went dead with a little bit of stereo usage. If this was your main gripe with the battery then you should be looking at the batteries capacity, which is rated in Ampere-hour(Ah). This is how many amps the battery can pump out sustained over a one hour period. Go double check the aH of you two batteries and compare, and there you'll have your real comparison. Well just for your knowledge I have received an email from Optima today in regards to this and he had no complaints of my testing procedure at all. But to appease you yes your are correct in stating CCA's is a big part of turning over the vehicle and yes the Optima battery almost has a 100Amp advantage. But I am not seeing your point. The battery still did not out perform the stock oem. Again yes aH is important to look at when deciding on a battery but my test has proved the sotck battery performed just as well as the optima. So the rating at that point doesn't matter. Who is to say a companies rating isn't different then anothers? Ever look at the ratings of car amplifier wattage:lol:
f85stealth Posted February 5, 2008 Author Posted February 5, 2008 I have asked for the privlage to start posting Optimas responses as this is sorted out. I will keep everyone updated.
f85stealth Posted February 5, 2008 Author Posted February 5, 2008 If anyone has any better testing methods please post them and I will forward them on to Optima for approval. Again, Optima has contacted me and has not pointed out my testing methods are at fault.
CzarDestructo Posted February 5, 2008 Posted February 5, 2008 Well just for your knowledge I have received an email from Optima today in regards to this and he had no complaints of my testing procedure at all. But to appease you yes your are correct in stating CCA's is a big part of turning over the vehicle and yes the Optima battery almost has a 100Amp advantage. But I am not seeing your point. The battery still did not out perform the stock oem. Again yes aH is important to look at when deciding on a battery but my test has proved the sotck battery performed just as well as the optima. So the rating at that point doesn't matter. Who is to say a companies rating isn't different then anothers? Ever look at the ratings of car amplifier wattage:lol: They have no complaints because you are the customer, and the customer is always right. Furthermore you'll dealing with a customer service rep who probably doesn't know anything about the batteries. Why are you so confident that the battery didn't outperform the stock. Where is your evidence aside from a bunch of random voltages? The batteries power is a ratio between Voltage and Amperage (wattage = volts X amps), so measuring just the voltage proves absolutely nothing. Also, the whole point of you replacing the battery was CAPACITY, which has absolutely nothing to do with the voltage. It has everything to do with the sustained amperage capabilities of the battery over time, which you failed to measure. Please don't compare battery ratings to amplifiers, batteries are very simplistic and testing them is extremely basic with no margin for fudging numbers. If you really want to test the two batteries for capacity(which is what you bought it for) in the simplest form possible, charge them both up and hook up a constant load and measure how long each lasts. Even still, the stock battery will fall slightly short now that it's been used for several years in relation to a brand new one. It's not my intention to be a douche here, but I'm trying to point out your mistakes so that some random forum-dweller doesn't come across this thread and read it as fact when it is in fact not.
f85stealth Posted February 5, 2008 Author Posted February 5, 2008 They have no complaints because you are the customer, and the customer is always right. Furthermore you'll dealing with a customer service rep who probably doesn't know anything about the batteries. Why are you so confident that the battery didn't outperform the stock. Where is your evidence aside from a bunch of random voltages? The batteries power is a ratio between Voltage and Amperage (wattage = volts X amps), so measuring just the voltage proves absolutely nothing. Also, the whole point of you replacing the battery was CAPACITY, which has absolutely nothing to do with the voltage. It has everything to do with the sustained amperage capabilities of the battery over time, which you failed to measure. Please don't compare battery ratings to amplifiers, batteries are very simplistic and testing them is extremely basic with no margin for fudging numbers. If you really want to test the two batteries for capacity(which is what you bought it for) in the simplest form possible, charge them both up and hook up a constant load and measure how long each lasts. Even still, the stock battery will fall slightly short now that it's been used for several years in relation to a brand new one. It's not my intention to be a douche here, but I'm trying to point out your mistakes so that some random forum-dweller doesn't come across this thread and read it as fact when it is in fact not. well for your info I am not speakiong with a cutomer service rep. The customer can not be always right in this instance because that would prove there batteries are worthless which is exactly what they don't want to prove. I know the formula. Again formulas do not always work in a real world scenario not knowing proper testing procedures of the manufacturers. I can compare battery ratings to amplifiers becuase it works on the same principle which has nothign to do with electronics what so ever. Its called marketing! Thats why i performed this test to prove what battery was superior. and your method of properly testing is exactly what I have performed:lol: A constant load was added to both and i measured voltage and put a timer on it to see which dissipated the fastest. I can't believe u have any arguements to what I have performed when you clearly stated the proper method is exactly what I have done.
CzarDestructo Posted February 5, 2008 Posted February 5, 2008 You've obviously made up your mind and I'm wasting my time. Enjoy living in misinformation.
f85stealth Posted February 5, 2008 Author Posted February 5, 2008 Anyone else have another method of testing they would like me to perform? I am more then willing to try anything else if suggested.
Prime Power Posted February 5, 2008 Posted February 5, 2008 Like was said, don't measure voltage. Run both until the battery is dead. Then you will know.
f85stealth Posted February 6, 2008 Author Posted February 6, 2008 Like was said, don't measure voltage. Run both until the battery is dead. Then you will know. This proves the same thing I have done in my test. With out the proper voltage it doesnt matter how many aH or CCA's the battery has left. The car will not turn over. I have heard back from Optima again and once again did not go against my testing procedure. I will post his responses shortyl As he has given me permission to do so.
biz77 Posted February 9, 2008 Posted February 9, 2008 f85, you seem to be on the right path, but just not quite getting there. Your method proves very little as any battery presented with heavy load will likely drop below it's float voltage very quickly. Your 3-4 minutes worth of testing proves nothing. If you want to see how they fare against each other you will need a known static load, which your stereo system IS NOT and a way to measure voltage and time. You charge each battery and load it with the static load and see how long it takes each to drop below 10.5 volts, which is dead for a car battery - not 11.8. The manufacturers perform this testing at 80* with a 25 amp load. with a 25 amp load I'm guessing the Optima will run just about 4 hours and the OEM battery a little more than half that long, if it is in good condition. Battery load testers can be purchased at auto parts stores. This is the same method CzarDestructo eluded to earlier when he mentioned checking the Ah rating of the battery.
f85stealth Posted February 19, 2008 Author Posted February 19, 2008 f85, you seem to be on the right path, but just not quite getting there. Your method proves very little as any battery presented with heavy load will likely drop below it's float voltage very quickly. Your 3-4 minutes worth of testing proves nothing. If you want to see how they fare against each other you will need a known static load, which your stereo system IS NOT and a way to measure voltage and time. You charge each battery and load it with the static load and see how long it takes each to drop below 10.5 volts, which is dead for a car battery - not 11.8. The manufacturers perform this testing at 80* with a 25 amp load. with a 25 amp load I'm guessing the Optima will run just about 4 hours and the OEM battery a little more than half that long, if it is in good condition. Battery load testers can be purchased at auto parts stores. This is the same method CzarDestructo eluded to earlier when he mentioned checking the Ah rating of the battery. Haha 80 amp load for 4 hours....not even close....I just concluded my most recent final test write up to follow
Underdog Posted February 19, 2008 Posted February 19, 2008 You've obviously made up your mind and I'm wasting my time. Enjoy living in misinformation. Nick, this is f85stealth you're dealing with. f85, CzarDestructo is an electrical engineer. He knows what he is talking about. The Crimson Dynamo
biz77 Posted February 20, 2008 Posted February 20, 2008 Haha 80 amp load for 4 hours....not even close....I just concluded my most recent final test write up to follow I hate quoting myself, but since reading comprehension pwns you: The manufacturers perform this testing at 80* with a 25 amp load. with a 25 amp load I'm guessing the Optima will run just about 4 hours and the OEM battery a little more than half that long, if it is in good condition.
f85stealth Posted February 20, 2008 Author Posted February 20, 2008 Talk to Optima they would laugh at you. No battery could run with an 80 amp load for 4 hours with no charging source.........I am not even going to bother anymore.....I try and help and everyone just rags on me **** that good luck all
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