Guest Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Yet still, too many drivers are too distracted to drive a manual. They shouldn't even be on the road in the first place, but thats life. They don't need any more distraction, they cause enough accidents as it is. I think here you are wrong (except the part that some should not be on the road at all). When you drive MT you simply know you cannot do shit because it's too inconvenient / unsafe. It is the AT that encourages people to do stupid things behind the wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G35C_WRX_MX5_MR2 Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 From what I've heard the decision to drop manual transmission cars for all manufactures is due to costs. Our government requires that all model cars be crashed tested and DOT certified and that each engine/transmission combination be separately crash tested and certified. The cost to do this amounts to between 1million - 2.4 millon dollars per car /engine/transmission combination! A friend who manages a local VW dealer told me this was the only reason the new R32 comes with only the DSG transmission. VW told him the crash testing /DOT costs would have been 2.3 million to get this car certified for the 6-sp manual and due to the low number of these cars being imported the extra cost per car would have added thousands of dollars to the cost of each car sold. Other countries do not have these stupid laws. It comes down to numbers and since lazy americans don't like manuals most will be phasesd out. The new Audi A4 with the V6 will not be available with the manuals because few have been sold in recent years. The car is available in most other countries with the 6-sp manual. I have 4 cars and they're all manuals- I hate autos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 I heard about it, too. If true, the crash tests laws are ridiculous and contribute greatly to the death of MT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartg Posted January 10, 2008 Author Share Posted January 10, 2008 GM is promising cars that can drive themselves by 2018. See how lazy and unskilled that makes drivers. But yeah unclemat, I think you are right, the drivers are distracted because auto encourages it, but I still see manual drivers trying to read the paper, put on makeup, or play with their kids in the back seat. Who has the signature "Make something idiot proof, and someone will make a bigger idiot"? It's the same thing going on here, the roads are too slow and people will find anything to distract them or preoccupy them while on the road. Getting rid of shifting just gives them one more way to not pay attention to what it going on around them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chenc544 Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 It's very hypothetical. Don't see if anything like DSG could be made non-sequential. Even if it, the answer is still no. I have no need or desire for auto mode at all. Why would I want added cost, weight and complexity. Acutally the idea is that the cost will be reduced because there will no longer be a need for automatic transmission. All cars will have same transmission so economy of scale will help reduce the cost to even lower than current MT option. Let's assume the increase in weight will be min, like 5 lbs for a single actuator. Complexity will also be min because it's just an actuator and rest is implemented via software in the TCU. So you are paying less for something that's only slightly heavier and most of the complexity is in the software. Is the answer still no? If so why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Personally, I think that an automated clutch gearbox should replace most of the hydraulic automatic transmissions in even slightly performance-biased cars. "DSG" is not the new manual, it is the new automatic. Manual is still manual. Automating a manual is an automatic by definition, just not necessarily hydraulically controlled. A car with even slight potential for performance should get a manual standard (on all trim lines, if I have my druthers) and an optional automated clutch (single or dual) transmission in leu of a hydraulic automatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edkwon Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 That's something I find hard to believe. If one has IQ above 70, two hands and two legs he/she can drive manual. Maybe not perfectly, but decently enough and would improve over time. I think, because there is easy way out (autos) people like your wife do not really want to learn. No disrespect meant, but how otherwise explain that everyone who needs to drive in Europe somehow can master the skill? agreed, it doesnt take that much intelligence or physical coordination to learn to drive stick adequately. most ppl who say its too hard are making excuses and just dont want to try or take the time to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigInALegacy Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 I agree most people just avoid the stick if they can, because they do have an option. Personally, I can drive a stick fine... I chose the 5EAT because I hit traffic on my hour-long commute to and from work, and honestly I didn't feel like rowing gears for an hour at 7:00 every morning. Other than that, I would have gladly gotten the 5MT... or SPEC-B!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sactojesse Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 agreed, it doesnt take that much intelligence or physical coordination to learn to drive stick adequately. most ppl who say its too hard are making excuses and just dont want to try or take the time to learn. Agreed. The problem is that many American drivers view their cars as appliances. As long as it comfortably gets them from Point A to Point B and doesn't look bad doing it, that's all that matters. Why unnecessarily complicate the task of doing dishes or laundry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G35C_WRX_MX5_MR2 Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 I think here you are wrong (except the part that some should not be on the road at all). When you drive MT you simply know you cannot do shit because it's too inconvenient / unsafe. It is the AT that encourages people to do stupid things behind the wheel. Exactly!!! I traveled to Italy last summer and I rode in all kinds of vehicles. Small cars, large cars, large busses, minivans. Every single one was a manual. I couldn't believe it, I was in heaven. So I started looking into cars along the streets. I did not see a single automatic the entire time I was in Italy!! not a sinlge one. I also only witnessed a couple of people on cell phones and nobody eating or drinking behind the wheel. When I was leaving a real nice Mercedes minivan came to pick me up I thought OK this has to be an automatic- Nope it was manual the shifter came out from the middle of the dash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Btw, 2009 Forester XT will be 4spd auto only... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edkwon Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 Agreed. The problem is that many American drivers view their cars as appliances. As long as it comfortably gets them from Point A to Point B and doesn't look bad doing it, that's all that matters. Why unnecessarily complicate the task of doing dishes or laundry? I have a feeling many of those ppl are the attitude they only had to deal with the trauma of the 'learning curve' as a little kid (i.e. learning the ride a bike - constantly falling and scraping themselves, and learning to swim - constantly getting lungfuls of water). Note how many adults have a pretty pathetic attitude about learning to swim when they never had the chance to learn as a child. THey're no less physically capable (unless crippled or sick or course) but they feel its something they don't need to bother to learn at this point in their life. I suspect their attitude towards learning stick falls along the same line of reasoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gator GT Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 I'm very much looking forward to the survey. Although some of these cars were not on my final list, not having a manual tranny immediately took them off my list. I can afford any of these cars and chose my LGT 5mt. Maserati Quattroporte Infiniti G35X Lexus is250 AWD jack wait a second jack. no offense, but if you can afford these cars....how did you bypass the specB altogether?? That comes in nothing BUT MT. At least the last two are competitors. "If we are to guard against ignorance and remain free, it is the responsibility of every American to be informed." - T. Jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domain Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 Given US preference for AT's; for every potential specB buyer who would only consider a MT there may be 5 potential buyers who would only consider an AT. Not such a stupid idea from a sales perspective. Please, don't give them any ideals... the 6MT is one of the primary reasons (if not THE reason) to consider a spec.B in the first place. Anyway, in regards to the topic at hand, I would certainly take Subaru off my list of brands if they made the rash decision to drop the MT option. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against AT (or their drivers), but the entire MT experience is what keep me in anticipation for the next time I can get behind the wheel. For me, if you take away that interaction, driving just becomes a chore, rather then a pleasure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLegacy99 Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 Btw, 2009 Forester XT will be 4spd auto only... Give it a year or two and and it will have a CVT and we will all be happier. And if you don't like CVTs then you can cram it and like it or get a MT. Edit: Oh. I thought the only automatic was the 4 spd. Now that Ive clicked the link I understand. ...I hate this company. Im not buying a Forester thats for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vet Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Btw, 2009 Forester XT will be 4spd auto only... That's really pitiful. Doesn't every other manufacturer offer at least a 5spd AT now? I can't believe the 5EAT is so expensive they can't afford to offer it and they obviously need to given the Forester's competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gator GT Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Anyway, in regards to the topic at hand, I would certainly take Subaru off my list of brands if they made the rash decision to drop the MT option. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against AT (or their drivers), but the entire MT experience is what keep me in anticipation for the next time I can get behind the wheel. For me, if you take away that interaction, driving just becomes a chore, rather then a pleasure. Perfect. "If we are to guard against ignorance and remain free, it is the responsibility of every American to be informed." - T. Jefferson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krzyss Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 I wonder what he means by "control". Obviously you can put the transmission in manual mode and have it stay in whatever gear you want, so that can't be what he means. Not sure how often slipping or kicking the clutch would be useful on a track either, unless you are drifting. The one area where I think it would be annoying is if you need to skip a gear while down shifting. I'm not sure a DSG would allow you to directly down shift from 4th to 2nd. You probably would have to down shift to 3rd then 2nd. With DSG or any sequential manual with electronic clutch one looses clutch modulation. It is beyond driver control. Krzys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krzyss Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 When trying to drive something fun, it's important to remember your personal priorities; Try answering the cell phone, while you input an address into your GPS, with your coffee between your legs, in stop and go traffic, with your 5 year old screaming in the back seat and you'll realize why I made the sacrifice. I think you are trying 2 to 3 things too many at once. It is time to pull over and take care of the most important one: "5 year old screaming" unless you know he or she is trowing temper tantrum. Krzys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krzyss Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 WRONG! Put that ish down! Drive the effin car! There is voicemail for a reason! get your passenger to input into GPS or pull over! and find your cupholder! He does not even have time to find it ;-) Krzys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bama16 Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 a manual will be found in more of an enthusiast's car, if you bought the car to really drive it, it's gonna be a manual. i like coming out of a corner knowing the gear i'm in and the way the car is going to respond based on where i am in the RPM range. i like coming up on the car in front of me and droppin her down a gear and passing...no guessing about when the auto decideds to shift down for me. if i wanna be pinned to the seat on a launch...i know i can feather the clutch out of the hole and hold on. a snowy abandoned road and i know i can hold that drift out and feather the gas and remain in that gear until i tell it otherwise... now if i just wanted a quick car for driving around that was awd and decent in the snow....with no real desire for performance, would have gone auto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigInALegacy Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 I dunno... my 5EAT is pretty quick. I'd say it performs pretty well! I do see what your saying though, the MT is obviously the closest to touch and feel what's happening. But I tell you, this 2008 5EAT isn't nearly as bad as all the MT lovers wanna think. (I do believe an AT doesn't lose as much boost as an MT between shifts too). If you want to give the Auto a little less control, you can shift yourself. And for me in 1hr traffic both ways to work, it's a dream. Hell, I don't think it's bad at all, I love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 ^ Typical lame excuses. I find MT easier to drive in heavy traffic that dumbing AT -> less right foot movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigInALegacy Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Not sure how your right foot moves less in an MT vs AT. I'd say they have to move equally (both have a gas and brake pedal that both operate the same), just with the MT you have to clutch too. And also not sure what's lame about what I said? All seem to be valid points to me. I'm not trying to start the AT vs MT debate, god knows this has been beat to death in here, and really it just depends what your using it for, and that's the bottom line no matter what anyone says. Whats best for one may not be best for the other. I know how to drive both, I just chose the AT. It's what I preferred for what I was using the car for. Do I regret it, no. It's a commuter car with 15,000 miles already, and I love it so no qualms from me here. The tidbit quicker it gets off the line is a non-issue to me. If I wanted a racecar, I'd have gotten an STi/Evo/Vette. And just the way one may say "well you can put money into the LGT and make it as fast as an STi..."... I would say: "you can put money into a 5EAT and make it as fast as a 5MT" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigInALegacy Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 a manual will be found in more of an enthusiast's car, if you bought the car to really drive it, it's gonna be a manual. i like coming out of a corner knowing the gear i'm in and the way the car is going to respond based on where i am in the RPM range. i like coming up on the car in front of me and droppin her down a gear and passing...no guessing about when the auto decideds to shift down for me. if i wanna be pinned to the seat on a launch...i know i can feather the clutch out of the hole and hold on. a snowy abandoned road and i know i can hold that drift out and feather the gas and remain in that gear until i tell it otherwise... now if i just wanted a quick car for driving around that was awd and decent in the snow....with no real desire for performance, would have gone auto My comments were just based on the bold type and offered as an alternative view to the poster's. In the 5EAT... you can very well know and control what gear your in, and control the RPM range. You can drop it down a gear and not let the auto shift for you. The option of Triptronic handles that well, and would work with drifting too. And to say just because it's a 5EAT it has no performance is just not true, and that to if you buy a 5EAT you have no chance at performance. Tell that to the guy pushing 514whp on his 5EAT! My stock car is plenty quick enough for me, and is quicker than most midsize sedans out there. If you think this car stock is FAST anyways, whether MT or AT than your wrong period. The car is quick, not fast. I do find it kinda funny though how alot of the MT guys will harp on the AT! It's like the Spec-B guys saying there's are better! Like I said: to each their own, what's good for the goose isn't always good for the gander! The LGT is a great car for the money no matter MT or AT, and that's why we're all here on this site. What you pick should really be based on YOU and what you need, and not what someone else tells you is good for you. And that's all I have to say about that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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