Legacy STI? Definite maybe.

[DukeTrout]

Do you all really think that Subaru didn't try to sell the manual transmission cars? They said they built them and that nobody wanted them. I'm sure they didn't enjoy having to give huge incentives at the end of 2005 to get rid of them and they don't want to do that again.

 

Do you all think that the readers of this forum represent an average legacy buyer? I think its a group of enthusiasts who are going to be different (maybe by a lot) then the average buyers.

 

Not everyone loves shifting gears. Many of us have tough commutes, or live in cities, or are simply just fed up with shifting gears. I see the VW dual clutch DSG transmissions as being the end of manual transmissions for the future. All the benefits of an automatic and all the benefits of a manual in one transmission.... I hope Subaru has a transmission like that soon!

 

BTW - to the Hawk GT guy - I have one now (red 1990) and I had one from 89-95 (gray 88).

 

Yes, I am pretty darn sure Subaru, or more specifically, a key executive at Subaru, did their darn best not to sell MT wagons. The Northwest represents ~20% of Subaru's North American market. Subies are all over the place here in Portland. There are 9 Subaru dealerships in the Portland metro area. When I was looking for our Outback (I was also looking at LGT wagons) there wasn't a single wagon 5MT in any of these dealerships for 3 months.

 

I'm getting a 07 spec.B in a couple of weeks, and part of the reason I'm getting a spec.B is that there isn't a single OBP or DGM MT LGT sedan in all of Oregon, Washington, or Idaho. I can't get one. Randomly search 10 Subaru dealerships' inventory right now. 2/3 do not have a MT LGT sedan of any color.

 

Is SoA creating their own problem when it comes to selling MT LGTs? Damn skippy.

[LegGTLT]

Nice! Getting the spec.B huh? Funny you mentioned the problems with the current MT search. I had just done a search on all of the W. WA dealers and there still were NO MT in OBP or DGM. Crazy... just crazy.

[The B4]

 

Is SoA creating their own problem when it comes to selling MT LGTs? Damn skippy.

 

The problem isn't SOA. The problem is the dealers. The Dealers don't order them because they have a hard time selling them. If SOA can't sell them to the dealers... the dealers can't sell them to us.

[PGT]

twin turbo is more marketing than performance reality. Subaru has BTDT and a twinscroll is a better solution unless you are dealing with large displacement motors. Heck, I'd be happy with a 2.5L twinscroll with DCCD and Brembo's and a BMW 'sport' level suspension (vs. an STI Limited type).

[FUBAR]

The problem isn't SOA. The problem is the dealers. The Dealers don't order them because they have a hard time selling them. If SOA can't sell them to the dealers... the dealers can't sell them to us.

 

Maybe the dealers have a hard time selling them because SOA doesn't advertise them well enough. I've never ever seen a TV ad for an LGT sedan/wagon (not including OB) never! And I can't remember the last time I saw a mag ad for one if I ever have. I guess we could go round and round on this couldn't we?

[The B4]

Maybe the dealers have a hard time selling them because SOA doesn't advertise them well enough. I've never ever seen a TV ad for an LGT sedan/wagon (not including OB) never! And I can't remember the last time I saw a mag ad for one if I ever have. I guess we could go round and round on this couldn't we?

 

The dealers also have their own money they advertise with. When dealers advertise they only advertise Outback and Forester. In fact... this year... I know that SOA gave the dealers most of the advertising money and told them to run with it. I still see only Outback and Forester ads on the TV.

[KayGT]

Maybe the dealers have a hard time selling them because SOA doesn't advertise them well enough. I've never ever seen a TV ad for an LGT sedan/wagon (not including OB) never! And I can't remember the last time I saw a mag ad for one if I ever have. I guess we could go round and round on this couldn't we?

 

Theres been a few legacy TV commericals and quite a few magazines have legacy ads.....But they are going about it in all the wrong ways....They should advertise DURING SUPERBOWL! (bankruptcy)

[tintinet]

I see a lot of general Subaru "End of Year Clearance" TV commercials here in Maine. They usually at least show the Legacy.

[DukeTrout]

The problem isn't SOA. The problem is the dealers. The Dealers don't order them because they have a hard time selling them. If SOA can't sell them to the dealers... the dealers can't sell them to us.

 

The dealers I've been talking to say they don't remotely have that level of control over what specific cars they receive. Maybe they get a Spec.B or maybe not. If they think they're getting one, they don't know when. If they already had one and sold it, they're pretty sure they can't even get another even if they order it. And just try and find a DGM LGT anywhere in the country. The dealers I've spoken to say people love the color, and they want more on the lot, but when it comes to LGTs, they pretty much find out what colors (or even if they get GTs at all) when the truck shows up at the dealership. I strongly suspect that SOA is holding back LGTs in DGM in order to push the Spec.B. I found a DGM 5MT LGT in Northern California, and the dealer wanted $1000 more than the other colors for it, because he didn't know if he could get another in that "highly popular" color.

 

That's one of the reasons they aren't letting go of Spec.Bs and STI Limiteds for even MSRP. They have no idea when (or if) they'll ever get another one. So they're waiting for someone willing to part with $x000 over MSRP for one (even $10k over on the STI Limited) to sell it to. That way they're making the same as a half-dozen LGT sales in one sale.

[The B4]

The dealers I've been talking to say they don't remotely have that level of control over what specific cars they receive. Maybe they get a Spec.B or maybe not. If they think they're getting one, they don't know when. If they already had one and sold it, they're pretty sure they can't even get another even if they order it. And just try and find a DGM LGT anywhere in the country. The dealers I've spoken to say people love the color, and they want more on the lot, but when it comes to LGTs, they pretty much find out what colors (or even if they get GTs at all) when the truck shows up at the dealership. I strongly suspect that SOA is holding back LGTs in DGM in order to push the Spec.B. I found a DGM 5MT LGT in Northern California, and the dealer wanted $1000 more than the other colors for it, because he didn't know if he could get another in that "highly popular" color.

 

That's one of the reasons they aren't letting go of Spec.Bs and STI Limiteds for even MSRP. They have no idea when (or if) they'll ever get another one. So they're waiting for someone willing to part with $x000 over MSRP for one (even $10k over on the STI Limited) to sell it to. That way they're making the same as a half-dozen LGT sales in one sale.

 

That sounds like salesperson speak. My parent's neighbor works for the SOA office here. He says with the exception of STI limiteds... a dealer can get whatever car they want. The Dealers can request whatever they want and turn down whatever they don't want.

[tantal]

This is why I never trust people at dealerships. Generally speaking they are going to say whatever they need to say to get you to buy a car off the lot TODAY and **** what you want or trying to help you figure out what you want.

 

Its really hard to respect car dealerships because almost all of them act this way, which is why when I go car shopping I am shooting for the lowest possible price

[LegGTLT]

This is why I never trust people at dealerships. Generally speaking they are going to say whatever they need to say to get you to buy a car off the lot TODAY and **** what you want or trying to help you figure out what you want.

 

Its really hard to respect car dealerships because almost all of them act this way, which is why when I go car shopping I am shooting for the lowest possible price

^1000

 

Internet buying FTW. No hassle, lowest price in most cases, and no stepping foot on the lot till the deal is DONE.

[DukeTrout]

That sounds like salesperson speak. My parent's neighbor works for the SOA office here. He says with the exception of STI limiteds... a dealer can get whatever car they want. The Dealers can request whatever they want and turn down whatever they don't want.

 

Exactly. They can request whatever they want, and turn down whatever they want. However, they don't necessarily get what they request, and, to my understanding, if they turn down a vehicle they do not get a replacement vehicle for that month.

 

And check the inventories online. Try to find a LGT sedan in DGM. Other than the one in N Cali, there isn't one to be had west of the Rockies. I've checked.

[DukeTrout]

^1000

 

Internet buying FTW. No hassle, lowest price in most cases, and no stepping foot on the lot till the deal is DONE.

 

That's what I've been doing. I've requested internet quotes all over the west coast. Most of the time, I know their inventories better than they do, at least at first contact, thanks to the availability of online inventory access on the standardized Subaru dealership web pages.

 

Getting $500 or more under invoice is pretty easy for Outbacks or even OBXTs. Try that for an LGT, especially a manual. Not one quote for less than $500 over invoice. They lost sales (to me) because they not only didn't have the configuration I wanted, but they couldn't commit to getting it for me at any time in the future. It's not like I was calling their bluff. They really felt they couldn't get the car.

[SWP-LegacyGT]

The problem isn't SOA. The problem is the dealers. The Dealers don't order them because they have a hard time selling them. If SOA can't sell them to the dealers... the dealers can't sell them to us.

 

Actually the problem itself is not Subaru selling manuals, it's the fact that America doesn't (for the most part) driving Sticks anymore. Look at 95% of outbacks sold through SOA and they will be 4EAT no question.

 

The fact that Subaru is ignoring a large portion of their market by not adapting to it is what is costing them revenue.

 

You bring out a 6 speed Manual and a 6 Speed Auto and the LegacySTI will sell probably more in Auto than it would manual. There's only the handful of people on this board that are diehard manual owners/lovers that would protest such a move but in Subaru's best interest.... THIS is what they need to do in order to move more product.... specially one as so admired as the LegacySTI.

[SUBE555]

Well SWP, you're on the mark there. Enough people aren't interested in manuals anymore. I have one hell of a hard time trying to convince people to even trying to learn drive stick, everyone thinks it'll be too hard to try, which of course isn't true. But the people I am able to get to learn to drive them wouldn't want it any other way. Sort of like my family, parents and sister all love driving manuals, sort of one of those things unless someone can truly show us a more fun way of driving, you'll have to pry it from our cold dead fingers.

 

SWP, I think you're also right on with the point of not adapting, or moreso adapting far too slowly. When new technologies such as DSG-type of wet-clutch transmissions, media player integration, xenon headlamp adaptation, things like that start to become commonplace, I believe to be viewed as embracing the technology you have to be in the first 40-50% of manufacturers to adopt. Subaru has missed out far behind the curve with media player integration and HID lighting, but still could have a chance with improvements in their transmissions if they start to adopt the DSG transmissions over the next 1 to 2 years, after that, they're just a tag-along. By actually embracing technology you're not one of those companys that just adds it because now it's cheap to add and thus by then granola boring and has a reduced or limited time span on the technology compared to early adopters. By adopting technologies that way Subaru will stay in the 'cheap and built to stay that way' mantra.

 

As for the topic of Legacy STI, I once again wrote Subaru of America and here is what I had to say to them...

John,

 

I would like to once again put in a request for a Legacy STI. I know Subaru has offered the Spec B for two years now, however, it just is not enough for me and I know other buyers who have money like myself but just aren't willing to put it down for a car full of compromises. I have owned 3 manual gearbox Subaru's over the past 6 years, two of them 2005 models. My 2005 GT Wagon was an excellent car for content, style, comfort, everything short of the performance and handling I was looking for. Since these aspects seemed more important at the time, after roughly 2 years I sold my GT Wagon in pursuit of a fine 2005 Impreza STI example as you can see both in one of the attached images. I found out I wasn't willing to give up the comforts and style of the Legacy to gain the performance of the Impreza, but seriously desire both traits. Since I know pictures speak a thousand words, I have attached a second image noting what those interested in Subaru performance models think of the line-up. Once you've owned both a Legacy GT and Impreza STI, we have nothing left to aspire to and both have huge compromises. Why can't we have one car that compromises very little as a thoroughbred example that owners of both lines can to aspire to? I am 25 years old, successful in the engineering field already, financially stable, and very ready and willing to purchase a real Legacy STI model. I have the money for such a vehicle right now, I am not offering lip service.

 

The Spec B up front is quite a nice car, but to make it very attractive to the performance crowd of which it would be marketed to, the technical details are what must be paid close attention to, that is differentials, suspension components, and key powerplant parts. For instance, the things I believe that make a Legacy STI a Legacy STI would be:

 

-Keep Spec B gearbox ratios but replace the front and center differentials with the same units as used in the Impreza STI less the DCCD controller (automatic mode only)

-Use the Brembo brake system with Super Sport ABS from the Impreza STI including the wider spaced 5x114.3mm hubs. Utilizing the wider 7.5 or 8" width 18" diameter wheels would aid users in not only a better traction footprint up front, it would also provide users a better variety of replacement tire options down the road; something owners of a car like this rarely will replace with the same OE tires.

-Pay close attention to suspension settings. Spec B owners have frequently noted the setup is just pretty good with the Bilsteins and stock springs, but with the addition of STI's own tuned springs has gone to phenomenal. I can attest to the near perfection of this setup and how good it is. It makes me forget about how good BMW handling is and how smooth it is.

-For smooth engine operation, a twin-scroll turbocharged 2.5 would likely prove worthy even though 6-cylinders tend to dominate the requisite price class. A twin-scroll unit, particularly ball-bearing if possible provides adequate low-end torque, response, and smooth operation throughout the rev range. I know users have asked in the past why we don't have twin-scroll turbos like the EVO of which cost was the response, I have done research and for an OEM, the price difference is not worthy of the benefits that can be had.

-Please allow buyers the option of not having Navigation. I much prefer my Rand McNally paper maps over a $2,000 feature.

-HIDs while seeming not that important to some are an important option for others of us and I would definitely add this option. With daytime running lamps eating up bulbs every 12-18,000 miles HIDs are a worthy solution to this headache and the light output is phenomenal. Utilizing projectors with HIDs also helps other drivers out with less blinding and a better field of vision.

 

John, I know the enthusiasts have asked for some time to bring turbos to the U.S. domestic market, it happened in 2002, the requests for other models has not gone unnoticed like a turbo Legacy with the introduction of the BL/BP generation. I do however feel it is time for us to see a proper halo Legacy model, particularly for those of us who are ready and willing to give Subaru our hard earned money. Being that I do work in an engineering R&D group for large defense vehicles, I do understand the types of timetables it takes to develop products (my speciality is in the powertrain and vehicle systems) and I also have an idea about pricing differentials for options such as turbocharger flavors. This is a type of product where if bean counters feel a few dollars here and there can be sacrificed with the big things like technical features, it will turn individuals like myself and others who know what they are buying totally off. For a couple hundred dollars difference for better differentials, better suspension components, and the such, it is so very worth the extra money up front. Please give me a reason to desire to stay with the Subaru brand and a Legacy STI is the only way to keep me in the family.

 

Thank you for listening and I hope everyone in the Subaru family has a safe and happy holidays!

 

Best regards,

Seth Van Heuklon

Neenah, WI

I also attached the following pictures for reference for them...

The first is a diagram I created and have used several times showing the likely ownership evolution path.

http://homepage.mac.com/futureofx/.Pictures/CARS/Lineup.jpg

The second shows that I've owned both of the highest levels at one time.

http://homepage.mac.com/futureofx/.Pictures/MYCARS/LGTW/FORSALE/S0961.jpg

[gt_ltd]

S401... 10K RPM!!

[showbo]

That's pretty funny when i hear all of you talk about, how subaru doesn't advertise for the Legacy GT. Come to think of it, when i had my WRX, i didn't even know legacys exsited, let alone a Turbo Legacy. An older couple in my town, had an STI, then they traded it in for a 06 Legacy GT Spec B. First time i saw one in person. Look pretty, and i have gotten tired of my WRX. Called up my dearler, asked him about LGT's, not one manual was on the lot, good for me since i didn't want another manual, BUT their still wasn't even an option to get a manual. Went and picked up my 5EAT LGT, been happy every since.

 

 

I guess my point is, i agree, no advertising for the LGT's, like i said, i never even knew abouit it until my friends went and bought a Spec B.

 

SOA, why don't u quit being lazy.

 

 

Oscar

[j255c]

someone should just send this post to soa over and over every day... maybe they'll get the message.

[PGT]

although we'd all like another choice, most of you forget that SOA is a business. Profitability is more important than catering to the enthusiast market. Take a look at manuals and Spec B's languishing on dealer lots for a hint about Subaru's plans. I, for one, hope this isn't an indicator of the future product lineup, but one can't help but wonder why SOA would bring a full line of STI vehicles.

[Guest]

It is a business, we know. The point is - it is a badly run business. Offering a product and not advertising it at all (Legacy Wagon) is a clear example of that. Heck, Legacy sedan gets hardly advertised.

 

Website that gets updated months after the cars are on dealer's lot or products that do not get listed on the website AT ALL (2.5i manual wagon) are another examples of mismanagement at that company.

 

Sure, we are enthusisasts. But who said ethusiast market is non-profitable? Impreza WRX STI must be profitable, I guess. Even if not directly, it's a halo car for plain WRX. Legacy sales overall would benefit from a halo car as well. SpecB is not one.

[PGT]

Legacy sales overall would benefit from a halo car as well.

 

how do you know this absolutely? Do you have the marketing data for the demo? Do you have the production costs of such a vehicle? Do you know the R&D costs? Projected sales based on all these and the resulting MSRP?

 

not trying to argue with you guys about this, but unless you have that info, any argument you make is anecdotal.

[kenzo]

although we'd all like another choice, most of you forget that SOA is a business. Profitability is more important than catering to the enthusiast market. Take a look at manuals and Spec B's languishing on dealer lots for a hint about Subaru's plans. I, for one, hope this isn't an indicator of the future product lineup, but one can't help but wonder why SOA would bring a full line of STI vehicles.

 

Why? Maybe because people would be more willing to pay a premium for a Legacy that actually has premium performance.

 

To use poor Spec. B sales as a reliable indicator of poor STi sales seems foolish since they cater to two different markets.

 

I'm ready to spend my money on a Legacy STi and am not at all interested in the Spec. B.

[Guest]

how do you know this absolutely? Do you have the marketing data for the demo? Do you have the production costs of such a vehicle? Do you know the R&D costs? Projected sales based on all these and the resulting MSRP?

 

not trying to argue with you guys about this, but unless you have that info, any argument you make is anecdotal.

 

I do not know this absolutely. What I know is that people are suckers for "cool" stuff and it brings people's attention. Impreza STI is my example. Everyone knows what it is. Do you think everyone knew what Impreza was before? Sure, WRX was introduced 2 years earlier but as far as I remember it was backed wth a good marketing campaign.

 

I don't have specific numbers handly, but Subaru did market research and underestimated sales of Impreza STI.

 

Point is, you can't estimate and guess everything about how product will sell unless you try. But that needs to be an honest attempt, not halfhearted one.

 

Besides I just don't trust marketing wing of a company how changes grilles and look of their cars almost yearly and is not able to update their website promptly and completely.

[hutru01]

As far as advertising is concerned, I am glad these cars don't get advertised as much. I like having a car that not many other people have. I can tell that the reason Subaru stays in business is because of repeat buyers. Its because they make reliable cars. If Subaru were to spend more money advertising, that would make for less money spent on things like R&D and quality assurance.