SubieDoobieDoo Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 "Frogg" asked: "who is daniel stern and why do care what he says?" ====== Good question! Who, indeed, is “Daniel Stern” … (Other than that goofy actor from “City Slickers”!) and why should anyone give a shit about what he says? Some surprising “research” reveals that there might very well be *two* “goofy actors” with the same name. Turns out, MY nephew (by marriage) recently – and quite successfully – defended his Doctorial dissertation for his PhD in Mechanical Engineering (in the Department of Automotive Engineering) at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. You know … Michigan? … where the major U.S. auto manufacturers are headquartered? I was talking with him about other automotive-related matters (the upcoming changes in Formula 1 engines, new aerodynamics regulations and the 2012 return of a United States Grand Prix) and how his paperwork defense went as he prepared to accept his post-doctorial studies position at an esteemed German university in Darmstadt – one constantly used by the German TUV (Technischer Überwachungsverein – see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technischer_Überwachungsverein) - for all sorts of their automotive research. Know who developed the “European code” headlighting systems? THIS well-known German university - in conjunction with the latest TUV guidelines! First practical application of HID lighting? Approved studies by the German TUV – and high-tech German educational research facilities and their massive test equipment and computer analysis! MILLIONS of dollars spent!!! And since he’s now well-established at his new German university and still has valuable contacts at the University of Michigan, Purdue University in West Lafayette, IN and Michigan Tech in Houghton, MI - which are **THE** primary U.S.-based “think tanks” for all sorts of “cutting edge” automotive research – as well as having friends, contacts and research associates at General Motors, Ford, Fiat-Chrysler, Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Toyota, Honda, Nissan and just about every other auto manufacturer on Earth - I thought he might have some interesting contacts to do some “brain-picking”. He does. A couple of e-mails and the chase was on! And when it comes to the educational and research side of automotive technology – especially lighting - it is a very, VERY small community of dedicated professionals!!! You can bet your last penny that all such research, studies and grants for research are VERY well known to other universities – as are the people and staff involved. And who the manufacturers or inventors are and their automotive-industry contacts are. That is, no one does anything without almost everyone in the same area-of-interest knowing about it. Period. And no one – not the U.S.D.O.T or the N.H.T.S.A. - pays for “opinions” and word-of-mouth testimony from “independent consultants” when they can get the truth, TONS of fact-based research from cutting-edge, automotive-dedicated university research labs!!! Someone like Daniel Stern advising an official agency on automotive lighting would be like the F.B.I. asking Deputy Barney Fife how to load and shoot a gun … I simply expressed my amusement and concern about a couple of Internet forums I peek into from time-to-time and asked him – a few weeks before U.S. Thanksgiving 2010; to give him and his contacts some time to “snoop” – just who in the H#ll this “Daniel Stern” guy is and why he’s so valued and trusted by the N.H.T.S.A. (National Highway Transportation Safety Administration) and U.S.D.O.T. (United Stated Department of Transportation) for his (legendary) knowledge about automotive lighting! Short answer: All sources drew a blank. Going back some 25-30 years to the present day … NO ONE my nephew could find in research and development circles and research archives - at any university level - all the way down to research, development and studies conducted by, for and on behalf of the major lighting players – GM, Ford, Fiat-Chrysler, Sylvania, Bosch, North American Phillps, Cibie, Marschal – anyone who is anyone and who has ever been involved – IN THE SLIGHTEST MANNER! – about studies, research, related work or developed / manufactured a single lighting fixture or bulb in the Western Hemisphere … has ever even heard of him. Not even so much as a whisper. No one with the name “Daniel Stern” has any sort of educational background, theoretical or applied research history, applied knowledge, authority, credentials (or credibility) or any other technical connection - whatsoever - to anything related to automotive lighting. Not even as much as a period at the end of this sentence. Zero. “Daniel Stern” is – at best – a savvy, Internet light-bulb-selling huckster. A blow-hard. He’s the equivalent of an old-time circus fast-talker selling snake oil … His “knowledge” and credibility in the science and technology of automotive lighting is totally invisible. As an “expert” and “consultant” to anyone – private or governmental - in this extremely important field of automotive research, his opinions and “esteemed” knowledge would come right after, say, a koala bear. And a stuffed toy version at that! In other words, put on your best and tallest hip-boots to wade thru all of the Daniel Stern bullsh*t about lighting and light bulbs. You can get similar answers and INCREDIBLY biased opinions from anyone selling THEIR favorite products – like the zit-faced yokel at the sales counter at Auto Zone – or by doing some “google” research on the Internet. Daniel Stern's world is "I'm always right and you're always wrong!. Or ... "if I don't sell it, it's trash!" Just avoid anything to do with the “expert opinions” of Daniel Stern and you’ll be fine. Or … ask that goofy actor guy with the same name; in 5 minutes looking at sales literature published by the major light bulb manufacturers, he’d no doubt spit out about the same sort of information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Interesting! However, even if he truly is a nobody in the field, his articles are backed by research conducted by USDOT or NHTSA, with links directly to the articles. This, at least, as far as HID kits in halogen housings are concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 There is ongoing debate currently about HID kits in a halogen housing in another thread http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/brightest-yellow-fog-light-bulbsi-153043.html Here is what I think the source of the debate that comes up every time this swap is brought up "Work quite well" is completely different from saying "there are no issues" or "everything is perfect". If that were the case, then Subaru would not have a reason to manufacture a different projector housing for HIDs. "Work quite well" is a subjective assessment. What "works quite well" for you may be inadequate for someone else. Case in point, me. And it looks like opie has this very concern, hence his reluctance to switch to HIDs. In other words, what we are arguing is not the science behind it, which you yourself accept as true and accurate by acknowledging a HID kit only "works quite well". What we are arguing is the subjective application. You have no leg to stand on, similarly to how you would have nothing to stand on in an argument of which color is the best. I got flashed 3 times in a week when I had my HID kit. The aim was identical to the halogens. The cutoff markings matched the HID kit to the halogen. I had taken measurements before and after the install and I also double-checked my work by following the headlight aiming procedure outlined by Subaru. I got flashed 3 times in the time I owned my oem-HID Altima, which was 3 years. And like I already said, that Altima had reflectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frogg Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 i havent seen anyone claim HIDs are perfect, but they are better (imo, producing whiter light and brighter light), than any aftermarket bulb that I have found and definatley than stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 "Better" is a gray area and subjective, also dependent on driving conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSiWRX Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) ^ Exactly - "better" is, without quantification, completely subjective. Remember, Frogg, "whiter" and "brighter" may not necessarily equate with "better." The tactical-flashlight/low-light-combatives theater was among the first to realize that there can be "too much light," which can actually degrade operator performance - and similarly, light can be "too white," that in many cases, best visual performance may come from light that's "firelight/straw" colored. There are situations where "whiter and brighter" will typically work better than "dimmer and yellower," but that's something that cannot be easily measured, as it also incorporates the twin variables of the driver's unique preferences, as well as what brother fishbone mentioned above - that of specific driving conditions. Currently, what can be said about the "plug and play" kits is simply that it sometimes works out well - sometimes less so: and this, to a degree, extends to even complete retrofits, which are "backyard engineered." This is an area where automakers spend untold sums of money to try to improve - both as an "aesthetic signature" as well as to truly try to improve performance, in an quantitative manner, of both the lighting devices as well as its interaction with the human side of the equation. What's not debatable about the HID kits is that they allow us to throw much more light, for a very reasonable price and with relatively good reliability/durability. Everything else, though, is hard to stand by, in a quantitative manner. There are better, but there are definitely also worse. ---- Interesting! However, even if he truly is a nobody in the field, his articles are backed by research conducted by USDOT or NHTSA, with links directly to the articles. This, at least, as far as HID kits in halogen housings are concerned. :lol: So strange that there's citations for Mr. Stern's work (including one of his presentation to the NHTSA)....but are there actual citations for SubieDoobieDoo's word-of-mouth story? ---- Would love to see a thread about all your improved optics front and rear TSi. with pics! Nah, I'm just an amateur. Nothing special...that, combined with the fact that my photography skills are non-existent (thereby making night-time photography even more difficult), makes it nearly impossible for me to share anything really all that good with y'all. What outahere did with the '05 fog-lamp wiring beef-up, he'd documented well. As for the rear fog, there's a couple of threads on that, too, with my input - then on my second set of USDM '05 tails - already documented (with a few really bad photos, too ). The 55W H7 capsule, with squirrel-finder filling and updating to HIR1 for the high-beams are both something that's been well-covered here by others. I don't want to bore you all. Edited January 13, 2011 by TSi+WRX <-- I love Winky, my "periwinkle" (ABP) LGT! - Allen / Usual Suspect "DumboRAT" / One of the Three Stooges '16 Outback, '16 WRX, 7th Subaru Family Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frogg Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I know better is subjective, hence the IMO (in my opinion) I think some of you look too much into this. Can you see more of the road? YES...problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSiWRX Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I know better is subjective, hence the IMO (in my opinion) I think some of you look too much into this. Can you see more of the road? YES...problem solved. ^ Yes and no. Yes in that "can you see more of the road" is an easy answer. But it's much trickier than that: The problem is that sometimes our brain/eyes deceives us - for example, that long-held belief that selective-yellow somehow really helps "cut through the fog?" Actually, most of that perceived effect is subjective in nature: and that as it turns out, the driver performs, on an objective scale with quantifiable performance tasks, no better than one using "white" light of the same intensity. What's more, that perceived comfort from the "selective yellow" then tends to make the driver over-confident, and over-drive the vehicle's capabilities for-conditions. The intense foreground flooding of most "improper" plug-and-play HIDs is a perfect example: it typically immediately makes the driver feel better - every pebble and crack in front of the car is immediately apparent, so one must be "seeing better," right? <-- I love Winky, my "periwinkle" (ABP) LGT! - Allen / Usual Suspect "DumboRAT" / One of the Three Stooges '16 Outback, '16 WRX, 7th Subaru Family Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frogg Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I'd love to not use HIDs. I hate how they have to warm up (yeah its only a few seconds but annoying, especially for the high beams). I suggest posting pics of comprable bulbs(if possible) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSiWRX Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) ^ Unfortunately, there's nothing really comparable - the biggest draw (i.e. in attracting people to) HIDs, aside from aesthetics, is their sheer output. "Even" a 35W kit puts out a tremendous amount of light, and as long as one stays within the 4300K to 5000K range, will seem very "white." Standard halogen incandescents can come close to matching that coloration, but it'll be at the expense of light produced: i.e. the overlying layer of color filtering will require that the capsule itself "burn hotter" (which typically will degrade bulb-life as well as output-over-life) to, in-essence, "make up for" that "lost light" through the filter. HIRs and going overwattage can help overcome such issues, but whether if the light housing/lens structure - and even wiring - can withstand such demands of heat and current are a question that will have to be addressed. But on the other hand, the CRI - even with "whiter" bulbs - is typically better with halogen incandescents, and with a plug-and-play, more common than not, the different optical properties of the HID element versus incandescent often causes artifacts in the "thrown" light: anything and everything from excessively "hot/cold" spots to a narrowed spread can be a concern, and again have to be addressed on an individual basis (remember that a big part of the equation is not only how much light you throw, but how you throw it - look at a standard household 60W incandescent bulb: screwed into a naked receptacle as a backyard porch light, it very nicely lights up your deck, but how far does the beam penetrate into the surrounding bushes? now compare that to how far your average Wal-Mart 3D MagLite can throw the light into the bushes...but it's near impossible to read with that light, if it's used as lighting for the deck, right? ). And like you said, the burn-in time for HIDs is still an issue. This is why for most roadgoing vehicles, you won't see HID in the high-beam (unless it's a "shuttered" system: the lamp is burning, but an optical shield restricts its output until the high-beam function is engaged) and auxiliary lighting applications - a type of "constant-on" is needed to ensure that the extra light output is there, as soon as you flip that switch. Currently, overwattage or HIR incandescents are still favored for such applications - but you'll see an influx of LEDs, too, albeit at much higher prices and still currently much restricted applications. Edited January 13, 2011 by TSi+WRX <-- I love Winky, my "periwinkle" (ABP) LGT! - Allen / Usual Suspect "DumboRAT" / One of the Three Stooges '16 Outback, '16 WRX, 7th Subaru Family Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I suggest posting pics of comprable bulbs(if possible) I know enough about photography to tell you that is a pretty tall order. Additionally, I do not see the need. If you want to know how bulbs rate, all you have to do is look at their lumen rating (assuming all things considered equal, IE halogen bulb in halogen lamp). Lumen rating is there for a reason, it tells you how much light the bulb gives out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
05_2.5 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 A little off topic but couldn't find an answer from a search. The 05s have H3 bulbs for the fogs. I got a good deal on a set of 9006 HIDs. Can i get the 9006 kit to work if i get H3 bulbs or is there more to it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frogg Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 what makes your kit a 9006, is the bulb. order the h3 hid bulbs.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frogg Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I know enough about photography to tell you that is a pretty tall order. Additionally, I do not see the need. If you want to know how bulbs rate, all you have to do is look at their lumen rating (assuming all things considered equal, IE halogen bulb in halogen lamp). Lumen rating is there for a reason, it tells you how much light the bulb gives out. maybe there should be a sticky, listing all available bulbs, their lumens, Watts, price and color. so if someone is looking for H3 in yellow...they can go to the list and see the ones with the most lumens... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 The original post of this thread has a wealth of information in this regard. Foglight bulbs are not covered because for the most part they have the same brightness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austin42008 Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Just put hids in the car way better then normal bulbs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outahere Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 (edited) Is the 9011 HIR discontinued or not? I hate my high-beams. You may still be able to find the original Toshiba HIR1 (9011) bulb. Buy the version manufactured in Japan (better QC), not the one manufactured later in China. Or you can get the made in Germany Philips HIR1 from your local (or online) GM parts department, part #1509 4219 Edited January 29, 2011 by outahere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stanjk3 Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Got my order from Candlepower.com today: 9011 Toshiba - made in Japan H1 Narva +50 - made in Germany H3 CPI gold selective yellow- made in China All I can read on the base of the 9011 bulb is: Toshiba, Japan, and 9011 65W. Friends don't let friends drink cheap beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNVAR Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 One of my CPI Gold fogs went out a few weeks ago and I replaced it. It's a different color than the CPI Gold I had from 2 years ago! And I don't think I like the new ones. The new ones are more of a solid yellow whereas the olds one have sort of a.... hue that comes off it when viewed from an angle. I can't exactly describe it, almost like a soapy film color? Argh.... It was a neat effect. Anyway, they don't match now... sigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seiyafan Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Has anyone here with a 2010 or 2011 model legacy successfully changed low beam to Osram Rallye? I need serious help on how to get to the back cover of the lamp housing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbodog Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Just did the high/low combo as described in the first post. Very, very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soloz2 Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 I just ordered some Osram Rallye H7 bulbs for lows, HIR 9011 for highs and some Philips Xtreme Power 9007 bulbs for my 98 Outback. I can't wait! Current: 16 Crosstrek Premium w/ Eyesight & 05 Outback XT 5MT Past Subies: 14 FXT Premium, 14 WRX hatch, 06 Legacy 2.5i SE 5MT, 98 Outback wagon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackturboblack Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 The original post of this thread has a wealth of information in this regard. Foglight bulbs are not covered because for the most part they have the same brightness. I respect your knowledge on bulbs, you and Mini, as I've read this whole thread many times. I have a question I can't seem to find an answer to. My fogs are 9006s. I would like to change them to HIDs. All of the 9006s I've seen are made for hi/lo application. My question is: what are the bulbs going to do as fogs? Output as lows or highs? It's obviously a waste of time and effort if they're just going to operate as lows, especially since I replaced my driving lights with 8k HIDs. I'd like to do the fogs in 6 (white), 8(blue tinge) or 10k(blue). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNVAR Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 Maybe it's just me but your question is confusing. 9006 bulbs are single filament bulbs. HIDs will be as well. 9006 is 9006. There's no 9006 high beam compared to a 9006 low beam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackturboblack Posted September 19, 2011 Share Posted September 19, 2011 I don't think so. My DRL/highs are 9006s. If they are single filament as you say then I suppose the voltage is changed for output? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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