Koni dampers for Legacy

[NewScooby]

The proposed solution makes very good sense to me. Allow me to explain:

 

First, in the world of strength, bigger is not always stronger (or better), and you cannot tell the strength of a part (and especially the strength of an assembly) simply by visually looking at it. Having done a bit of FEA work, I have been surprised more than once by what something looks like versus its functional strength.

 

Second, retrofitting an insert to an existing strut body that is part of the overall assembly design will guarantee proper fitment of the strut to the car. How many times have we read about folks having fitment issues with other struts/coilovers? I know that I have read more than a few of these fitment accounts on this site.

 

Third, making custom stamping tooling is a VERY expensive endeavor that in order to be justifiable needs to have a high probability of an acceptable ROI. I have several years of experience with sourcing custom stamping tooling for thin gauge sheet steel parts and those tooling prices were in the order of $250k per tool (and each tool was only good for one part). Tooling prices go up notably when the material strength/size increases. Making custom struts in a fashion similar to stock struts would clearly have very high tooling costs.

 

It seems that many of the aftermarket coilovers are machined aluminum. Yes, in small-run production CNC machining is cheaper than steel stampings. But, aluminum is not as strong (specific strength) as steel (so by design the parts must be bigger to have equivalent strength -- which is why the other aftermarket struts are bigger). And unless one uses very expensive steel, thereby driving costs up even higher, machining steel to equivalent thickness as the stock stamped steel is not as strong due to material grain structure considerations. Aluminum is not as corrosion resistant as steel against snow melting agents, and it has a finite fatigue life whereas steel has an infinite fatigue life (safety considerations here).

 

So given that these are not intended as pure race accessories and that long life and safety is a consideration, aluminum is not as good of a choice as steel for a strut, and machined steel (spring perches, for example) is not a reasonable alternative.

 

Finally, if one is to add an existing, proven and highly reliable insert to a newly developed strut body (machined or stamped), the overall damper performance does not change one bit ... but its price goes up even higher and the chance for ROI goes down even lower. That would not seem like a good business decision to me, especially since they have already proven that the cut-a-strut method works very well on all kinds of cars (to quote Lee’s example: “from the BMW M3 and Porsche 996 down to the Chevy Cavalier”).

 

So that is just my $0.02 (Ok maybe $2.00 by now...) I’m only trying to explain how I see it here and I’m not trying to “talk down” to anyone -- so no pissing contests, please.

 

At least it is another possible option

 

With the popularity of the Legacy overseas, I just find it hard to believe this is the best we can get in the states. If the vendors on here are still not importing Japanese aftermarket struts/shocks before these are released I will likely buy these.

 

no pissing contest from me, maybe 10-15 years ago:icon_bigg

[OhBe1]

The solution for our LOB would be to firm up the asphalt ride & handling, while still allowing the occasional rutted gravel road (if she ever lets me...).

AX is unlikely. Ride height should be near stock, although I wouldnt complain if it dropped a bit, just to pick up a bit of camber, & get rid of the visually reverse rake.

[eVoMotion]

I have an OBXT.

 

First corner I thought I would roll it on the test drive after driving an LGT. We ended up with the OBXT for the 5MT reason.

 

First change was tires. Helped a great deal.

Next was coilovers - Ksports. Can not recommend them. Needed something, but after the hassle and cost and lack of support, I am already thinking of them as disposable. One is leaking already; all boots are cracked. Damping is not ideal and spring rate is wrong. New front springs have made a difference, but...

 

I would throw this all in the trash or at least put them in the basement next to the dustier by the day stock set up if I knew the Konis would work. I am ready to cut the tops off.

 

Add me to the list of customer requests for Sport units.

[OhBe1]

Let's keep this alive....

[vel0mac]

Yes, I'm still VERY interested in OB versions.

[Tommyh]

Where is the ajustment dial on these? Is it on the top or the sides? I'm waiting with baited-ish breath and just want to get all the detail-ducks in a row.

[PGT]

if it's like the Sports, on top with removable knobs.

[mpetty]

I am going to be putting iON springs on shortly, and I know this will shorten the life of my stock struts by a bit.

 

I would really like to have an alternative for replacing the stock struts when they wear out in a year or two, and I have had good experiences with Koni in the past.

 

Count me in, price sounds reasonable to me for Koni quality!

 

Morgan

[REM87O]

if it's like the Sports, on top with removable knobs.

 

That's what I am thinking, knobs on top. Lee could clarify for sure.

[Tommyh]

if it's like the Sports, on top with removable knobs.

 

...This could be a VERY difficult thing for us wagon people...

[OhBe1]

Nothing a hole saw and a plastic plug couldn't fix.

[KartRacerBoy]

Or you just remove the shock for adjustment. Simple

[PGT]

...This could be a VERY difficult thing for us wagon people...

 

but no different than most coilovers.

[Tommyh]

but no different than most coilovers.

 

I've never had the choice of adjustable dampers before. Right now I'm riding on Tien Basics which are not adjustable. I take it this is where they normally are?

The Saturn community doesn't have anywhere near the parts support that the LGT community does.

[PGT]

yep.....most are on top. For the front it makes sense. For the rear...most cars can be accessed the same way. Us wagon owners have a tough time since the plastic is so ridgid and hard to work with.

[eVoMotion]

+1 for wagon owners - still worth the pain to get a better setup.

[suds2250]

Any updates from OB Lee?

[OB Lee]

Nothing new to report yet. Just trying to get the test car worked into the R&D schedule for testing. I had hoped to have this done by now but the R&D department is crankin' busy with a lot of new applications that honestly have a greater market potential the the Legacys (Mini, new Civics, etc. ). I have asked them to have the R&D done before mid-July. I'll post as soon as I have something new.

[rpm6500]

Just for people to remember... No matter which springs you have, Konis can be rebuilt, de-gassed, revalved... all for not a ton of money. My G-stock ride had all of that done on Konis to keep legal and still whip it fast through the cones.

Also, to remark on the price of a "shade tree hack job" on Konis... don't forget that most of what's being paid for is the NRE R&D work from some of the best shock designers in the world. Konis with a good set of aftermarket springs will be similar in price to a set of Megan racing coilovers and I'm curious how large the gap would be between the two. I'd expect Konis with a full plug-and-play product to cost much more; along the lines of Bilstein's $1400.

[Boostjunkie]

I do find it curious that Megan Racing can produce a full drop-in coilover profitably with an initial production run of only 15 units, and Koni implies that the costs to produce a drop-in strut is too high even though they will likely sell a large multiple of that number. I have Koni's on another car and they are great shocks, but it would certainly give me pause to cut up my stock struts to install Koni inserts.

[jsalicru]

I do find it curious that Megan Racing can produce a full drop-in coilover profitably with an initial production run of only 15 units, and Koni implies that the costs to produce a drop-in strut is too high even though they will likely sell a large multiple of that number. I have Koni's on another car and they are great shocks, but it would certainly give me pause to cut up my stock struts to install Koni inserts.

 

 

Although I agree.. this method is used on many different application.. such as the Celica GT-S.

[PGT]

I do find it curious that Megan Racing can produce a full drop-in coilover profitably with an initial production run of only 15 units, and Koni implies that the costs to produce a drop-in strut is too high even though they will likely sell a large multiple of that number. I have Koni's on another car and they are great shocks, but it would certainly give me pause to cut up my stock struts to install Koni inserts.

 

simple really.....when you have an existing insert, all you are doing to make it fit is adding mounting tabs. Look at the Cusco coilovers....they aren't exactly a good match for the Legacy damping and spring rate wise, yet they fit.

 

The hard thing to do IMHO is the R&D on performance, not fit.

[rpm6500]

Acura RSX uses the chop-the-top build up as well.

 

The generic style Coil over (adjustable perch) shock systems are actually cheaper to build because of the COTS (Components Off The Shelf) style of design. The shocks used usually have a large range of adjustment to work with many springs, many vehicles even, and tend to be jack of all trades, masters of none. Find the right length and travel with apriximately the right spread and its "good enough" These shocks are then added to to with minimum design to fit a certain aplication. (shock tower mounts, lower mounts...) while using as many stock components as possible (Lower perchs, top hats/camber plates)

 

The fact that I have heard many good things about some of the generic styles leads me to 2 different conclusions. One, no one here knows how to drive (doubtful, <smile>) or Two, the guys building these systems are very good at selecting the seperate components used to build them up.

[chrisngrod]

So easy in a mid engine vehicle. You can see the tops on all four.

[Boostjunkie]

I believe that OB Lee has said previously that the LGT front insert are themselves adapted units from another application. If a manufacturer can save some cost through parts commonality, it would be foolish not to do so. My main point was that Koni has said that the tooling to make a bolt-on shock (bottom/top mounts) is too expensive given the expected volume. I find this difficult to believe when there are a number of inexpensive options where the manufacturer found a way to incorporate these features when their volume of sales is even lower.

 

The fact that Koni has followed a similar strategy with other application is inconsequential to me. I'm certainly not afraid to do a little cutting, but I believe that many people would be more than happy to even pay 20-30% more to have their replacement shocks come as a complete unit, rather than hacking up their stockers.