Koni dampers for Legacy

[vel0mac]

... snip ... Because the stock front struts for both the Legacy and the Outback are sealed units, the installation of a strut insert requires a system like Koni's cut-a-strut system. Here is a link to a general instruction sheet outlining the process: http://www.koni-na.com/pdf/boltstrut.pdf We have used this system for many many years on lots of cars from the BMW M3 and Porsche 996 down to the Chevy Cavalier. Our popular WRX application is a four corner cut-a-strut system. ... snip ... Until Koni has access to all the tooling and stampings required to make the specific lower mounts, spring perches and any additional bracketry (don't hold your breath as this is a huge investment), it will be a cut-a-strut for the front of these cars.

Lee,

Thanks for the info and prompt reply! This is exactly what I was thinking as a reasonable and (relatively) low cost solution for the Outback. I can easily imagine that the specific tooling for stampings is a big deal, and since the cut-a-strut is a proven solution, replicating stampings would not be necessary or cost effective.

 

Above, you mention that it will be a cut-a-strut solutuon for the FRONT of the cars. What about a solution for the REAR, which is where the big problem resides in (at least) the Outback?

 

Can a cut-a-strut be used on the rear of these cars as well?

 

Thank you very much in advance for all your interest and work!

[rexster]

hope the design them to work with stiffer/lower springs' date=' not just stock springs.[/quote']

most definitely...

 

from OB Lee's first post:

 

Since Rem870 has Ion springs in addition to his stock ones, we will test the Koni dampers both with stock and the Ions as a sample of an aftermarket lowering spring. The dampers will work for cars from stock ride height to lowered about 1.5-2.0 inches but that will all be finalized in developmental testing.

[OB Lee]

Lee,

Above, you mention that it will be a cut-a-strut solutuon for the FRONT of the cars. What about a solution for the REAR, which is where the big problem resides in (at least) the Outback?

 

Can a cut-a-strut be used on the rear of these cars as well?

 

Since the rear suspension on these cars is a pretty traditional, spring perch equipped shock absorber instead of a MacPherson strut, the rear damper will be a normal shock absorber and we will make every effort to make it externally rebound adjustable on the car (although you may need to peel back some interior trim panels to access the adjuster. Because it uses a pretty basic lower eye style mount and a spring perch that is similar to other ones that we use, the rear will be a pretty common looking shcok in general. The front strut with its stamping issues and the inherent side loading of a MacPherson strut make it the cut-a-strut candidate.

[OB Lee]

Who knows I may/probably will end up with a set of Sport dampers. I would just preffer the FSDs for a normally street driven car that sometimes sees the auto-x coarse and the track.

This sounds exactly like a Sport application would fit the bill for you. Good street ride quality and handling for daily use with the ability to adjust up to tune for the occaisional autocross or track event. All to often, people tend to hear the name Sport and think it is going to be really aggressive for the street or more for racing. This is not true, every Sport application is made to give a target "sporty" but very palletable street ride and andling at the full soft setting baseline and then give you the 100% firmer range of adjustment up from that point. Most vehicles that we do testing in, we actually improve some negative ride harshness issues (getting very common on some of today's sportier cars) while improving he handling and adding the big adjustment range.

 

We absolutely realize that there are a lot more daily driven cars out in nthe world that can use an upgrade over stock but aren't willing to compromise with a harsh ride to get it.

[vel0mac]

So, can I place an order for an Outback set, say, yesterday?? Ha! Seriously, as I have said before, if Koni can make this work for the Outback -- especially given the approximate price point goal you are targeting, I'll buy a set in a heartbeat!

[Tommyh]

This sounds exactly like a Sport application would fit the bill for you. Good street ride quality and handling for daily use with the ability to adjust up to tune for the occaisional autocross or track event. All to often, people tend to hear the name Sport and think it is going to be really aggressive for the street or more for racing. This is not true, every Sport application is made to give a target "sporty" but very palletable street ride and andling at the full soft setting baseline and then give you the 100% firmer range of adjustment up from that point. Most vehicles that we do testing in, we actually improve some negative ride harshness issues (getting very common on some of today's sportier cars) while improving he handling and adding the big adjustment range.

 

We absolutely realize that there are a lot more daily driven cars out in nthe world that can use an upgrade over stock but aren't willing to compromise with a harsh ride to get it.

 

So, when do they come out, and where will I be able to buy them? Oh, and would there be any difference between sedan and wagon aplications?

[lhsa]

maybe i'm the minority here, but $750 for a set of strut inserts which need to be installed into existing stock struts seems mighty expensive. am i missing something?!?!?

[G.T.Subie]

[PGT]

maybe i'm the minority here, but $750 for a set of strut inserts which need to be installed into existing stock struts seems mighty expensive. am i missing something?!?!?

 

that's MSRP, not final street price, and if you think it's too much....just buy something cheaper on the market. Oh yeah! There is nothing.

[lhsa]

i know there's no cheaper strut options, but when you factor in the work involved in adapting them, ruining stock struts and knowing you can get decent coilovers (like megan racing) for around $1000, it doesn't seem like an attractive price.

[PGT]

umm.....coilovers aren't really the same thing at all. trust me on that.

[H2OSB]

i know there's no cheaper strut options, but when you factor in the work involved in adapting them, ruining stock struts and knowing you can get decent coilovers (like megan racing) for around $1000, it doesn't seem like an attractive price.

 

I'm kinda with him on this. I'm not saying I wouldn't buy Konis, but this is a little on the spendy side. I think if we just hold out a bit something as good as Konis will be out and less expensive.

 

H2OSB

[Tommyh]

I'm kinda with him on this. I'm not saying I wouldn't buy Konis, but this is a little on the spendy side. I think if we just hold out a bit something as good as Konis will be out and less expensive.

 

H2OSB

 

...go ahead and hold your breath for that one.

[H2OSB]

...go ahead and hold your breath for that one.

 

I know I know. It kinda irritates me our cars are in their 2nd year of production and still no factory replacement aftermarket struts. What's up with that?!

 

I held my breath for a long time, but eventually turned blue and fainted. I haven't been the same since.

 

H2OSB

[ebpda9]

the going price for konis would be 30% off msrp so at 700 msrp the konis would be 500 or so on the street.

 

i've been riding on koni sports since 2002 and all i can say is wow. i can hardly wait for them to be available for the legacy.

[highwaydrifter]

http://www.thegully.com/essays/america/img_usa/ballot3_crybabies.jpg

[H2OSB]

http://www.thegully.com/essays/america/img_usa/ballot3_crybabies.jpg

 

:icon_cry: :icon_cry:

 

H2OSB

[lhsa]

:confused:

[PGT]

people complain about no options, but when a manufacturer steps up, people still complaing. Come on guys...this is the tip of the iceberg. If a company like Koni does the R&D, there's a market there.

[vel0mac]

Just a curious question about coilovers: How long do they last and what other peripheral wear and stress do they put on the car (the latter part assumes that the car is lowered since that is what it seems to happen most often with coilovers)?

 

I've read more than several posts in this forum about torn boots, leaky seals, etc, from owners of coilovers and none of these address long-term effects on other suspension parts. Of course, the peripheral wear issues are only a concern if one is planning on keeping the car for a longer time, which some folks do actually want to do.

 

Given Koni’s reputation and success with all kinds of applications tells me that they will make a high quality product that will most likely last the life of the car. And given that the Koni inserts will retain the stock position (no out of design stress on other components) or will also allow one to lower their car if they chose, it seems like that is the best of all worlds -- and is still less expensive than short-lived coilovers in both the short-term AND long-term.

 

And if one puts coilovers on, what happens to the original struts? Can they be resold for any value or do they sit out back collecting dust and/or getting rusty. If the coilovers do last the life of the car, then why does one hang on to the originals? So ultimately their removed value is...?

 

Not trying to be flippant here, just trying to understand the logic.

 

From all perspectives, the Koni proposed solution makes the most sense to me.

[NewScooby]

people complain about no options, but when a manufacturer steps up, people still complaing. Come on guys...this is the tip of the iceberg. If a company like Koni does the R&D, there's a market there.

 

To me it's just a shadetree hack job. I would pay $100 more for them come with the correct mounts welded to the strut body. And I don't think that is too much for a person to expect for $700-800.

 

My concern is all aftermarket shocks and struts I have seen are bigger/stronger units that the stock pieces they replace. So how much is performance going to improve by putting an even smaller strut body into this hollowed out stocker?

 

Hell, I'll still buy a set. But this seems to be a decent alternative/ not the great one that I would expect from a brand like KONI.

[PGT]

well, they currently do the same for the WRX application....a car that owners are 10x more likely to replace the suspension on, so it's not surprising that there's not much in it for them to spend money on tooling to make it a perfect drop-in. Besides, more than one vendor will do the modification for you for a small surcharge and a core fee.

[NewScooby]

well, they currently do the same for the WRX application....a car that owners are 10x more likely to replace the suspension on, so it's not surprising that there's not much in it for them to spend money on tooling to make it a perfect drop-in. Besides, more than one vendor will do the modification for you for a small surcharge and a core fee.

 

Installing the inserts myself would be simple, its just getting rid if that "did I settle for this, should have bought XYZ" feeling that I don't want.

 

My wife always asks me, Are you doing anything to your car that makes it less safe than it was? Remember the kids ride with you!

[REM87O]

Like PGT said, Koni has been doing this for a while for other makes and models. If there were any known safety issues, I certainly wouldn't be putting them on my car.

 

I am excited, and I am sure that others are as well, that we will finally have an option other than coilovers.

[vel0mac]

To me it's just a shadetree hack job. I would pay $100 more for them come with the correct mounts welded to the strut body. And I don't think that is too much for a person to expect for $700-800.

 

My concern is all aftermarket shocks and struts I have seen are bigger/stronger units that the stock pieces they replace. So how much is performance going to improve by putting an even smaller strut body into this hollowed out stocker?

 

Hell, I'll still buy a set. But this seems to be a decent alternative/ not the great one that I would expect from a brand like KONI.

The proposed solution makes very good sense to me. Allow me to explain:

 

First, in the world of strength, bigger is not always stronger (or better), and you cannot tell the strength of a part (and especially the strength of an assembly) simply by visually looking at it. Having done a bit of FEA work, I have been surprised more than once by what something looks like versus its functional strength.

 

Second, retrofitting an insert to an existing strut body that is part of the overall assembly design will guarantee proper fitment of the strut to the car. How many times have we read about folks having fitment issues with other struts/coilovers? I know that I have read more than a few of these fitment accounts on this site.

 

Third, making custom stamping tooling is a VERY expensive endeavor that in order to be justifiable needs to have a high probability of an acceptable ROI. I have several years of experience with sourcing custom stamping tooling for thin gauge sheet steel parts and those tooling prices were in the order of $250k per tool (and each tool was only good for one part). Tooling prices go up notably when the material strength/size increases. Making custom struts in a fashion similar to stock struts would clearly have very high tooling costs.

 

It seems that many of the aftermarket coilovers are machined aluminum. Yes, in small-run production CNC machining is cheaper than steel stampings. But, aluminum is not as strong (specific strength) as steel (so by design the parts must be bigger to have equivalent strength -- which is why the other aftermarket struts are bigger). And unless one uses very expensive steel, thereby driving costs up even higher, machining steel to equivalent thickness as the stock stamped steel is not as strong due to material grain structure considerations. Aluminum is not as corrosion resistant as steel against snow melting agents, and it has a finite fatigue life whereas steel has an infinite fatigue life (safety considerations here).

 

So given that these are not intended as pure race accessories and that long life and safety is a consideration, aluminum is not as good of a choice as steel for a strut, and machined steel (spring perches, for example) is not a reasonable alternative.

 

Finally, if one is to add an existing, proven and highly reliable insert to a newly developed strut body (machined or stamped), the overall damper performance does not change one bit ... but its price goes up even higher and the chance for ROI goes down even lower. That would not seem like a good business decision to me, especially since they have already proven that the cut-a-strut method works very well on all kinds of cars (to quote Lee’s example: “from the BMW M3 and Porsche 996 down to the Chevy Cavalier”).

 

So that is just my $0.02 (Ok maybe $2.00 by now...) I’m only trying to explain how I see it here and I’m not trying to “talk down” to anyone -- so no pissing contests, please.