I passed on the Legacy...

[Th3Franz]

Moved to the proper forum.

 

How much did it cost?? I see a red one parked on the street around here all the time.. and it's always spotless. I think the owner pays some immigrants to wash it daily or something.

[Mono]

I am not trying to flame here, so don't take this the wrong way...

 

I am just curious as to how you get "Jetta GLI" from what you say you were looking for... Sport and Luxury... (I'll leave appearance to your taste, although I will say I don' think the new Golf/Jetta is as good looking as a Legacy, especially a Legacy with the chrome grille deleted.)

 

It has less power, and FWD. Immediate points against "sporty". DSG maybe makes up for half a point there.

 

Luxury? It isn't a Passat, Pheaton, nor even an A4 in terms of luxury... What significant luxuries does it offer over a Legacy GT limited, besides perhaps hids, and key activation of the windows?

 

I'll admit that Audi interiors, and perhaps VW by association are very nice looking, albiet Jetta and A4 are both smaller than the Legacy inside, especially in the rear seat (then why not go Golf for two doors...)

 

It occurs to me how often you use the word "believe." You believe that VW is trying to turn their reliability reputation around. You believe that most problems happen up-front... Most quality issues related to initial construction or design shortcomings do show up quickly, but some issues are longevity related, and some things just wear out, perhaps sooner than they should, but not right away. I'm just saying that initial quality isn't everything. But if it isn't intended to last that long, and you'll be buying another car, it may not be a big concern.

 

How many cars have major problems AFTER the warranty expires? How do you think the warranty term (length of time) is determined? Probably a statistical estimation of when most significant expense-related problems start occuring, and rounded down to an even number of years, or months, and perhaps with some consideration of market competition with other mfgr's warrantys, as a selling point.

 

It is kind of amazing that getting a new ad agency and putting some admitedly good ads on TV will get people thinking that everything has made a turn for the better. I hope it has, I genuinely do. But an Ad isn't going to convince me of that, no matter how funny and attractive.

 

As was said quality > marketing, and I would want an established trend and reputation for quality, or at least a genuine market indication of improvement.

 

I haven't purchased yet, and I have looked long and hard at the Audi A4, which is another VAG product. I have passed it by and planning on a Legacy GT. I am glad you got the car you want, that is what free market is all about, but I can't quite see your reasons as something persuasive toward the Jetta or away from the LGT. That is just me.

 

On the Jetta, itself, I am not so fond of the trailing edge of the rear side windows, nor the headlight/grille treatment, or the overall convex line of the car, (beltline down the side seems to have an arch that is high in the middle, and low at the front and back ends. I like coke-bottle curves, or wedge lines, myself... again a matter of taste.)

I do like the look of the BBS rims, and BFG tires over the red calipers. The tail lights on that car are cool, too.

 

All commentary aside, I hope you like it, and it serves you well. I don't wish ill on anyone over a simple dissagreement on product choice. Diff'rnt strokes for diff'rnt folks, and all...

 

 

I'll address the facts first because the rest is opinion.

 

From edmunds.com:

Legacy rear leg room - 33.9"

GLI - 35.9"

Legacy rear should room - 52.6"

GLI - 53.1

Legacy cargo space - 11.4 cu. ft

GLI - 16 cu. ft (not even including folding down the rear seats)

 

The A4 is smaller than the new Jetta. So is the BMW 330i which I highly considered. Check edmunds.com for yourself.

 

Other facts about the GLI you may not be aware of:

 

- bi-xexon headlights (not available on Jetta or GTI)

- sport seats (not available on Jetta)

- larger front brake rotors (not available on Jetta)

- sport suspension (not available on Jetta)

- dual climate control

- five stage heated from seats

- aluminum petals and foot rest (not available on Jetta)

- aluminum interior trim (not available on Jetta)

- revised dashboard gauges (not available on Jetta)

- blue tinted glass (not available on Jetta)

 

You need to spend more time in the new GLI. Audi and VW work closely together. I've already found many parts on the car with the "Audi/VW" logo. The DSG tranny, FWD drivetrain, and 2.0FSI motor are all shared in the Passat, A4, and A3.

 

As for performance, the Legacy GT wins with AWD, but power, for just $500, I can have 250 hp/ 300tq. which is Legacy GT territory. The stock dyno results on 2.0FSI motor are already indicating Audi/VW underrated the power. People are getting 200whp/215wtq SAE corrected.

 

Other things worth commenting on: smoothness, the car is very smooth off the line, and power builds nicely, turbo lag does not exist and DSG tranny is incredible.

 

And lastly, I already admitted I'm holding off on modifications right now because I like to wait at least a year for problems to show up. I guess we can agree to disagree. With all my cars, I've always noticed problems showing up in the first year or two. After that period of time, my cars have been solid. I never waste money on extended warranties.

 

I wasn't expecting "love" by posting in this forum. However, I just figured since most of you are car people, you would give props where necessary.

 

The Legacy GT is a fine car and just because I didn't purchase one, I have no problem admitting that.

[Max Rebo]

I considered the 4motion Passat too, but it's 100% FWD biased and very expensive. Plus, like you said, no cool DSG tranny. No torque converter on the DSG tranny so power to the wheels is equal to manual tranny.

 

Here's some more on the DSG tranny: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/dual-c...ansmission.htm

 

Here's some info on the 2.0 FSI motor. Ward's 10 Best: http://wardsauto.com/reports/2006/te...o_audi_ag_fsi/

-----Original Message-----

 

The FWD-biased AWD system (Haldex) that VW/Audi uses is actually very good at what it does. People who haven't driven, say, an R32 (which also has Haldex AWD) tend to believe that such an AWD system sucks. But... those cars can do donuts with the rest of 'em when it snows! It got plenty of use the past couple of winters when I had my R32. It's operation is transparent and makes the car very easy to drive fast.

[BOXRPWR]

so you passed on the Legacy......well, I'm sure quite a few Legacies will be passing you too:lol:

[godwhomismike]

Goodluck with it - I think it looks sharp

[emlevins]

^^+1 - and drive it safely and in good health.

[Jedi Pimp]

GET SOME SPRINGS NOWWWWW!!!! I don't care much for the exterior styling but I gotta give props to the 2.0FSI engine and DSG. If I had to drive in rush hour traffic every day, the DSG would be the tits.

[RockyMtnGT]

Hey man congrats on the car! I had a 1.8T Jetta and 1.8T Passat before I got the LGT. I loved the VDubs, but the cost of ownership sky rockets as they get older (and the warranty runs out).

 

I know a few guys that have the new GLI, GTI and the new Passat (I am still active in a local VW/Audi car club, despite the fact that I drive a Subie now...They actually made me and my car Member of the Month this month, which I thought was very cool...)

 

The guy with the Passat has an APR chip and it puts down MAD power... The car flat out pulls, like no 2.0T motor should. On the highway, he and I are a pretty even match (My engine is stock). Off the line his car has NO turbo lag at all, which is pretty amazing. The only drawback is that he keeps breaking one of the motor mounts from all the power he makes...I think he is on ehis 3rd one! hehe. Unfortunately, there are no reinforced motor mounts available for his car yet. As far as the interior, there is no doubt the VW wins there. The quality of materials, design, seats, and stereo all kick ass! So I think you made a good choice overall, as long as you are prepared to pay more for repairs down the road.

 

For me the LGT was the best choice. Comfort, speed, looks, safety, AWD, reliability, value, it has it all IMO! And with a few $$$ spent in mods, the car is pretty much a monster...

 

I was sick of the games with my Vdubs...I was in the service shop all the time, getting raped over and over. And most of the stuff that broke was stuff that was known to be faulty or just poorly engineered. Yet VW would gladly play dumb and bend me over each time. (Window regulators, coil packs, ECMs, tie rod ends, seat heaters, the list goes on and on...and nothing was cheap!) I could almost set my watch by what was going to break next. I am happy to say that my LGT after almost a year hasn't needed ONE thing fixed on it.

 

I would definitely put springs on the car first, then chip it for sure! I'm sure you will get many smiles out of it....congrats again.

 

Here are some cool shots of their cars...properly lowered by the way!...and yes the guy with the GLI sold his wheels to the Passat guy.

 

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/5663/dscf00424ch.jpg

 

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/1681/dscf00460vo.jpg

 

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8566/img45996nq.jpg

 

http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/88/img3570small9mk.jpg

 

http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/4717/img3560small1xz.jpg

[LotusSeven]

You need to spend more time in the new GLI. Audi and VW work closely together. I've already found many parts on the car with the "Audi/VW" logo. The DSG tranny, FWD drivetrain, and 2.0FSI motor are all shared in the Passat, A4, and A3.

 

 

Your statement is true, in fact VW quality is nearly AUDI quality and for long term reliability, unfortunately, this is not a good thing.

 

Latest Consumer Reports 5-year reliability survey (2001-2005) results:

 

Problems per 100 vehicles over a 5-year span:

 

Lexus 23

Toyota 31

Honda 40

Subaru 44

Ford 70

Saturn 72 (average of all brands)

Hyundai 79

Audi 79

Chrysler 83

Pontiac 100

Volkswagen 103

Cadillac 109

 

Considering that all Subarus are AWD (with all of the extra hardware that this implies) and thet most VWs are only FWD, the difference is especially sad.

 

As someone who traded an A4 for a LGT, you have my sincere condolences.

Hope you can get rid of it before the warrantee expires.

[IwannaSportSedan]

I'll address the facts first because the rest is opinion.

 

From edmunds.com:

Legacy rear leg room - 33.9"

GLI - 35.9"

Legacy rear should room - 52.6"

GLI - 53.1

Legacy cargo space - 11.4 cu. ft

GLI - 16 cu. ft (not even including folding down the rear seats)

 

The A4 is smaller than the new Jetta. So is the BMW 330i which I highly considered. Check edmunds.com for yourself.

 

Ok, I'll believe you. No flame suit needed... Maybe not such a small car after all, looks can be decieving, and I thought it was a bit compact when I saw one the other day.

 

I am going to add my comments in here... I am looking at this as you advocating the Jetta in the market place, and me looking for a new car, and being partial so far to the Legacy GT Limited

 

Other facts about the GLI you may not be aware of:

- bi-xexon headlights (not available on Jetta or GTI)

* nor LGT, but hopefully for 07. HID lows at least. Jetta props here.

 

- sport seats (not available on Jetta)

*LGT seats are nice, and more sport oriented than 2.5i... subjective to fit, regardless.

 

- larger front brake rotors (not available on Jetta)

*LGT has bigger brakes than the rest of the Legacy/OB line, too.

 

- sport suspension (not available on Jetta)

*Spec B has Bilsteins, LGT should have option, but doesn't... mixed bag.

 

- dual climate control

*LGT has dual climate control.

 

- five stage heated from seats

*LGT has variable heated seats, as well. I think 4-stage...

 

- aluminum petals and foot rest (not available on Jetta)

*LGT has accessory pedals, not footrest, but WRX part fits.

 

- aluminum interior trim (not available on Jetta)

*LGT should have real aluminum, but the plastic is painted to look like Aluminum... Give point to Jetta, but just barely, and it is a very minor point.

 

- revised dashboard gauges (not available on Jetta)

*LGT has electroluminescent guages. Coolest I have seen in a while.

 

- blue tinted glass (not available on Jetta)

Not sure if this is a big deal to me, as I tint all my cars darker anyway, regardless.

 

So, Score is:

Jetta GLI: +4 for more rear seat space, HIDs, real Alu trim *it is real metal, right?*, and sport suspension package.

Subaru Legacy GT: +4 for more standard horsepower, Better AWD system, Better reliability ratings, and better looks (ok, that last one is my opinion, but I am the one still shopping, you've already made your choice, Mono...)

Draw: 7 points.

 

Legacy has bigger plusses in it's column than the Jetta, in my humble opinion. but that is just it, it is only my opinion.

 

You need to spend more time in the new GLI. Audi and VW work closely together. I've already found many parts on the car with the "Audi/VW" logo. The DSG tranny, FWD drivetrain, and 2.0FSI motor are all shared in the Passat, A4, and A3.

 

BTW... The A4 and Passat use a longitudinal drivetrain more like the Legacy. The TT, Beetle, Golf, Jetta, and A3 use the transverse drivetrain, although the 2.0FSI motor is mostly common between them.

 

As for performance, the Legacy GT wins with AWD, but power, for just $500, I can have 250 hp/ 300tq. which is Legacy GT territory. The stock dyno results on 2.0FSI motor are already indicating Audi/VW underrated the power. People are getting 200whp/215wtq SAE corrected.

 

For $600, an AccessPort stage one map does nearly the same for the also under-rated Legacy GT. for nearly the same mod money, LGT is still ahead in that game. With a well chosen up and down pipe and stage two map on the AP, it jumps again. I doubt stage two mods to the VAG cars are as inexpensive, especially with FSI, although more cars are elligible for tuning, with so many sharing the same engine.

 

Other things worth commenting on: smoothness, the car is very smooth off the line, and power builds nicely, turbo lag does not exist and DSG tranny is incredible.

And lastly, I already admitted I'm holding off on modifications right now because I like to wait at least a year for problems to show up. I guess we can agree to disagree. With all my cars, I've always noticed problems showing up in the first year or two. After that period of time, my cars have been solid. I never waste money on extended warranties.

 

How long do you drive cars? Solid until what mileage, and what cars were they? VAG cars have a really pervasive reputation for being expensive mistresses when out of their warranties. Yours may not be the case, and I hope it isn't... but people talk about VW/Audi horror stories, and the stats bear it out.

 

As I said before, I am not trying to flame. Mostly I am just engaging in a little bit of "bench shopping" with other cars in the market place. I want to make sure that the LGT is for me.

 

I know it probably is, but I want my decision to be iron-clad when it is time to pay the money. and I like comparing cars to either bring my opinions out of the clouds if they are too glowing, or solidify my opinions if they are accurate.

 

Testing my opinions about the Legacy against yours about your Jetta GLI is a good way for me to do that, rhetorically. Comparing it to Mazdaspeed 6, G35, A4, IS, TSX, and others is much the same excercise. Just making sure I am not getting out of touch, not trying to debase your decision. I couldn't really do that if I wanted to, and I don't want to.

 

Plus I have to have something to talk about when my mind is mulling around after 2am local time. I need to get to sleep... Damn insomnia.

 

I do wish you well with your Jetta. I hope it is everything you want it to be, and expect it to be.

[phoenix96]

Ok, I'll believe you. No flame suit needed... Maybe not such a small car after all, looks can be decieving, and I thought it was a bit compact when I saw one the other day.

 

I am going to add my comments in here... I am looking at this as you advocating the Jetta in the market place, and me looking for a new car, and being partial so far to the Legacy GT Limited

 

 

 

So, Score is:

Jetta GLI: +4 for more rear seat space, HIDs, real Alu trim *it is real metal, right?*, and sport suspension package.

Subaru Legacy GT: +4 for more standard horsepower, Better AWD system, Better reliability ratings, and better looks (ok, that last one is my opinion, but I am the one still shopping, you've already made your choice, Mono...)

Draw: 7 points.

 

Legacy has bigger plusses in it's column than the Jetta, in my humble opinion. but that is just it, it is only my opinion.

 

Another plus that should be put in the LGT's column is better safety. According to the IIHS, the Jetta scored only an Acceptable rating for rear crash safety while the Legacy got Good scores all the way around (the only "midsize moderately priced" car to do so).

[GBY]

I like it, VW people are a lot like Subie people in their devotion. Also, VW claims they've improved the reliability after conceeding it wasn't up to scratch on previous models. I would have gone with the GTI though ('87 GTi 16V owner here - the last "proper" Gti before the MKV)

[Mono]

Another plus that should be put in the LGT's column is better safety. According to the IIHS, the Jetta scored only an Acceptable rating for rear crash safety while the Legacy got Good scores all the way around (the only "midsize moderately priced" car to do so).

 

Rear crash safety, that's only part of the story. Why didn't you tell everyone that Jetta still made the top 10 safest car list?

 

http://autos.msn.com/advice/article.aspx?contentid=4023649

 

I'm pretty comfortable my car may the list. Let me save you some time. Yes, I know the Legacy got the gold rating and the Jetta got the silver.

[Mono]

How long do you drive cars? Solid until what mileage, and what cars were they? VAG cars have a really pervasive reputation for being expensive mistresses when out of their warranties. Yours may not be the case, and I hope it isn't... but people talk about VW/Audi horror stories, and the stats bear it out.

 

Yes, real aluminum trim in the GLI.

 

Other cars I have owned or still own:

 

1997 Honda Prelude – owned 7 years for 98K miles

2000 Ford Mustang GT – 6.5 years and 60K miles

2003 Nissan Pathfinder LE – 3 years and still going at 47K miles

 

I keep cars for around 6-7 years. The mileage varies, but the duration of ownership is consistent. My Mustang GT was heavily modified and driven very hard. I made over 60 passes at the track with it and the car had zero problems. If there was ever a car that should have broken down, it should have been the Mustang GT because of how hard it was driven. My Prelude showed transmission problems around 15K miles and Honda put a new one in for me. The car was flawless after that. My Pathfinder had an emissions problem early on around 7K miles, but Nissan fixed it. Again, no extended warranties purchased on any cars.

 

You sound a lot like me when shopping for a car. I analyze everything like crazy before making a purchase because I don’t flip cars every other year like some folks. I spent months on VW discussion boards searching for problems on the new Jetta. Keep in mind, the new Jetta has been out for over a year already. You need to remember that while these discussion forums represent a small percentage of car owners, they also represent people that are passionate about their ownership. Because of this characteristic, I actually think people complain more about their car’s problems than the average person. With that, I really couldn’t find any major complaints from the 2006 VW Jetta owners.

 

The true reason I went with VW over others cars was because it’s a German car. For whatever reason, I wanted to try a German car this time around. I was dead set on the 2006 BMW 330i for months. I test drove it three times and then I came across an article about the new VW GLI/GTI. I started my research and realized it was larger than the 330i, just as quick, just as fuel efficient, and while debatable, just as nice quality. Overall, the 330i is a better looking car and with RWD and 50/50 weight balance, it’s a better driving car too. However, is it $10K better? I didn’t think so. That’s the price difference between a stripped down 330i and a loaded GLI. I just couldn’t justify the extra $10K for the bimmer.

 

I drove the 2006 Audi A4 3.2 Quattro and I just was not impressed for $40K. I felt like I could have had the same driving experience from a $27K Honda Accord. The trunk and rear seat space in the A4 was also too small for me as I have two children.

 

Something else to consider if you go with Audi or VW, the warranty is 4yr/50K miles and the power train warranty is even longer.

[robinlsb]

I have always loved VWs. In fact I leaned how to go fast(race?) in a 62 bug on old logging roads in NH! (13) Gad! that was almost a half century ago. I had a couple of GTIs which were great cars, until they got miles on them. Then the problems and expense got overwhelming. Have fun, sell it B4 it gets over 50k miles.

[Garandman]

Funny you say that because I bought the car despite all the reliability issues/rumors I read about. This is my first VW and I truly believe they are trying to change their image.

Yes, still true. It was true when I bought my 1979 Scirocco.....

[Faudi]

Two words,

 

 

Extended Warrenty

[joeb-z]

Two words,

 

 

Extended Warrenty

 

Absolutely. This is the only way to buy a low reliability European car and not kid yourself about the downstream costs. Otherwise, lease within the warranty period.

 

The overall trend of European car reliability is, if anything, down and I don't see how mere promises are going to change that. They all have the same electronics suppliers etc.

 

You still aren't covered for the downtime no matter what.

[wunderkind]

reading your first post and opening the link I was expecting at least an A3. But a Jetta?

[DuraMax]

Absolutely. This is the only way to buy a low reliability European car and not kid yourself about the downstream costs. Otherwise, lease within the warranty period.

 

The overall trend of European car reliability is, if anything, down and I don't see how mere promises are going to change that. They all have the same electronics suppliers etc.

 

You still aren't covered for the downtime no matter what.

 

Here are a couple of first hand VW horror stories

 

-my friends daughter's 1.8 GTI seized at 20K miles because of inadequate oil flow- (still under warranty-come to find out this is a common problem) . Since he had done all his own maintenance he couldn't prove that he had changed the oil according to the VW service schedule (which he did). Anyway, the dealer denied his warrenty claim and basically treated him like a lepper. In the end it cost him $12K for a replacement short block and install. Dealer was absolutely no help saying that because he bought the car with 5,000 miles from a honda dealer he wasn't their problem.

 

-Another freinds 1.8 Passat broke a timing belt 500 miles after his warrenty expired. Do you think they would cut him any slack - nope - why? because he bought from an out of state dealer. "Take it back to him" they said. Right.

 

-VW is stocking no internal parts for the W8 engine in the US - if anything goes wrong with the engine you need to order a short block from Germany. The price for a W8 short block is around $22K plus install. What are the chances that a VW engine will have something internal go wrong when it goes over 100K - pretty good I'm told.

 

Goodbye VW - Hello Subaru!!

[phoenix96]

Rear crash safety, that's only part of the story. Why didn't you tell everyone that Jetta still made the top 10 safest car list?

 

http://autos.msn.com/advice/article.aspx?contentid=4023649

 

I'm pretty comfortable my car may the list. Let me save you some time. Yes, I know the Legacy got the gold rating and the Jetta got the silver.

 

From my perspective, safety is perhaps the single most important factor in a car - the Jetta definitely isn't bad, but the Legacy is better. I was just pointing out that if I were making the same decision, the Legacy being the safest car the IIHS tested would be a huge point in its favor.

[Mono]

Here are a couple of first hand VW horror stories

 

-my friends daughter's 1.8 GTI seized at 20K miles because of inadequate oil flow- (still under warranty-come to find out this is a common problem) . Since he had done all his own maintenance he couldn't prove that he had changed the oil according to the VW service schedule (which he did). Anyway, the dealer denied his warrenty claim and basically treated him like a lepper. In the end it cost him $12K for a replacement short block and install. Dealer was absolutely no help saying that because he bought the car with 5,000 miles from a honda dealer he wasn't their problem.

 

-Another freinds 1.8 Passat broke a timing belt 500 miles after his warrenty expired. Do you think they would cut him any slack - nope - why? because he bought from an out of state dealer. "Take it back to him" they said. Right.

 

-VW is stocking no internal parts for the W8 engine in the US - if anything goes wrong with the engine you need to order a short block from Germany. The price for a W8 short block is around $22K plus install. What are the chances that a VW engine will have something internal go wrong when it goes over 100K - pretty good I'm told.

 

Goodbye VW - Hello Subaru!!

 

As you and many others have singled out, the 1.8T engine had problems. Clearly, VW makes other engines. Now allow me use some creative selective writing.

 

Who knew that the first-ever Porsche V6 came from Volkswagen? Yep, it’s used in the Cayenne. In fact, the VW Touareg and Porsche Cayenne share many significant mechanical parts. Porsche must have been out of their mind to partner up with such a lousy company.

 

Some of you guys crack me up with your selective thinking. I’m sure Subaru never had any poor designs. Must be why the Legacy sold like hot cakes.

[Faudi]

Some of you guys crack me up with your selective thinking. I’m sure Subaru never had any poor designs. Must be why the Legacy sold like hot cakes.

 

The Subaru 2.5 Phase 1 engine had major issues with head gaskets, but that is the only instance I can think of. VW on the other hand has had major problems with most of their power plants.

[joeb-z]

As you and many others have singled out, the 1.8T engine had problems. Clearly, VW makes other engines. Now allow me use some creative selective writing.

 

Who knew that the first-ever Porsche V6 came from Volkswagen? Yep, it’s used in the Cayenne. In fact, the VW Touareg and Porsche Cayenne share many significant mechanical parts. Porsche must have been out of their mind to partner up with such a lousy company.

 

Some of you guys crack me up with your selective thinking. I’m sure Subaru never had any poor designs. Must be why the Legacy sold like hot cakes.

 

Check out Cayenne reliability ratings! Do you really figure throwing the Porsche name in strengthens a reliability argument?

 

Volkswagen has consistently produced among the lowest reliability cars in the US market for years. In the bush league of Daewoos, Daihatsus, Izusus, early Hyundais etc.

 

Hyundai is an an example, by the way, of a company actually addressing their problems rather than making empty promises. How did they do it? Offer a great warranty and then figure out how to build the cars right so they didn't go broke under the warranty.

 

I also have to say that VW dealers are so hardened to problems that you endlessly hear stories of valid warranty customers getting screwed. VW must fight with the dealers or not pay enough because otherwise the dealers would see warranty work as a moneymaker.

 

Sure Subaru has had problems. My 2.2L Legacy motor from way back had both the front and rear seals go around 100K miles. An expensive annoyance. I guess the Justy wasn't the greatest thing. On the other hand you see these tired old Loyales trucking around that must have 300K miles on them.

[The B4]

 

...On the other hand you see these tired old Loyales trucking around that must have 300K miles on them.

 

I got cut off by a Brat yesterday... pissed me off something awful!!!