Scubaboo Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 OK, I think all of the adjustable ones sold on Rock Auto are SPC, I'll order a pair of them. Now I need to find a decent bushing removal/installation kit. Bushing removal/install kit, for the SPC arm? They are pre-assembled and bolt on. Since the rear hub does not pivot like the fronts, everything adjustable there affects the other adjustments. Even if you go to a tie rod-style link. I believe those are meant for extreme lowering with lots of camber, where the standard cam bolt style link may run out of travel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plastixx Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 Bushing removal/install kit, for the SPC arm? They are pre-assembled and bolt on. The SPC link come with a toe offset bushing for the front link. Also, apologies for the ebay link I posted earlier. I had it saved from when I purchased a pair and didn't see that they're sold out now. Glad I managed to pick up a pair for $40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coco26 Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 Is the only way to decouple them to get the adjustable rear and front lateral links? Right. For a 'true GT' car, your tire wear will be more important than cornering grip, so it's more important for your toe to be set properly than camber. That being said, if your toe is set right, your camber should be reasonable enough that it won't prematurely wear your tires on either side. You'll only run in to problems there when you start lowering more than an inch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scubaboo Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 The SPC link come with a toe offset bushing for the front link. Also, apologies for the ebay link I posted earlier. I had it saved from when I purchased a pair and didn't see that they're sold out now. Glad I managed to pick up a pair for $40. Oh yeah, now I remember, thanks! Those bushings are to get more range from the toe arm in extreme situations. In my experience there is no need to bother with those, especially on stock height. In my case after going down around 1-1/2" - 2" on coilovers I had mismatched camber but was able to set toe with the stock toe arms. Ran like that for a bit then got Whiteline SPC-style camber arms, had camber set to 1 degree, and tech was able to get toe to 0 with the stock toe arm. Wow, $40 is a great price! The Whitelines are 5x that lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plastixx Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 (edited) Those bushings are to get more range from the toe arm in extreme situations. In my experience there is no need to bother with those, especially on stock height. Yeah, the offset bushing kind of confused me on its intended application. They didn't come with any instructions. I plan on getting a set of those cheap adjustable front arms I linked to, so I guess I really don't need the bushings. A competent tech should be able to get everything dialed in exactly where I want it, the problem is finding one. Every single alignment I've ever had done has been a complete nightmare from techs not knowing what they're doing and arguing "eh, it's good enough". I had Firestone tell me that front camber adjustment wasn't possible at all on my '09 Outback. When I told them every single Subaru in existence has factory front camber bolts, they just gave me a dumb look. This dual adjustable link setup will require someone willing to go back and forth between the front and rear arms to get toe/camber where I want it since adjusting camber with the rear arm will also adjust toe, and then tuning toe with the front arm will affect camber. It's very possible to do right, it's just a balancing act that takes patience on the techs part. I'll be installing 1" drop Eibach springs and poly bushings all around. This is my daily driver, so I'll be going for a mild alignment of zero toe front/back and around -1.0 camber front, -0.6 to -0.8 rear. Edited November 8, 2020 by Plastixx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motorbreath Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 Right. For a 'true GT' car, your tire wear will be more important than cornering grip, so it's more important for your toe to be set properly than camber. That being said, if your toe is set right, your camber should be reasonable enough that it won't prematurely wear your tires on either side. You'll only run in to problems there when you start lowering more than an inch. Thanks for all of the information! Once I get the adjustable rear end links installed and find a good technician, I should be in decent shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scubaboo Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 Yeah, the offset bushing kind of confused me on its intended application. They didn't come with any instructions. I plan on getting a set of those cheap adjustable front arms I linked to, so I guess I really don't need the bushings. A competent tech should be able to get everything dialed in exactly where I want it, the problem is finding one. Every single alignment I've ever had done has been a complete nightmare from techs not knowing what they're doing and arguing "eh, it's good enough". I had Firestone tell me that front camber adjustment wasn't possible at all on my '09 Outback. When I told them every single Subaru in existence has factory front camber bolts, they just gave me a dumb look. This dual adjustable link setup will require someone willing to go back and forth between the front and rear arms to get toe/camber where I want it since adjusting camber with the rear arm will also adjust toe, and then tuning toe with the front arm will affect camber. It's very possible to do right, it's just a balancing act that takes patience on the techs part. I'll be installing 1" drop Eibach springs and poly bushings all around. This is my daily driver, so I'll be going for a mild alignment of zero toe front/back and around -1.0 camber front, -0.6 to -0.8 rear. A good alignment shop is gold! I'm lucky to have 2 I can go to who are willing to work with me. And I've learned lots from them, too! I'm always under the car with the guys when they are doing my car lol! For our cars, I dont understand why you and another poster are looking to get the tierod-style toe arm when the OE arm is adjustable for toe from the factory via the its own cam bolt, separately from camber? For the rear, camber is set first via the cam bolt at the hub side of the SPC arm. The usual goal is to get positive camber so the hub is cammed inward to pull bottom of the hub in and so get the hub assembly more upright. As the bottom of the hub gets pulled in, the front of the hub is stopped/held in place by the toe arm, so the front of the hub toes outward as the bottom of the hub goes in. Now the tech adjusts the cam bolt on the toe arm to cam inward, to pull the front of the hub in. Now this will affect camber a bit, but camber movement has a bigger effect on toe, so camber is always set first. A little back to back is dial it in is normal. With very extreme lowering will come extreme negative camber. If the bottom of the hub needs to be pulled inward by a big amount to reach the desired camber, the front of the hub may be pushed outward by a such a correspondingly large amount that the factory toe arm cam bolt no longer has enough range to pull the front of the hub in to get the desired toe. This is when the SPC offset toe arm bushing, or the tierod-style toe arms, are needed. In my experience for stock height or the mild to moderate lowering I've done with coilovers, the factory toe arm cambolt has enough range to get toe to 0. Which is why I recommend doing camber arms first before putting in offset toe arm bushings or buying tierod-style toe arms. Hopefully you save money and/or labor if it turns out the toe arm mods are not needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plastixx Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 For our cars, I dont understand why you and another poster are looking to get the tierod-style toe arm when the OE arm is adjustable for toe from the factory via the its own cam bolt, separately from camber? Everything on rear of my car is rusted to sh**, so I would like to replace as much of it as I can. After doing some work on the rear today and having a good look at the subframe, I was shocked at how bad it is. It's way worse than my '09 Outback with 190k. I think replacing the whole thing might not be a bad idea, though I really don't want to even think about the work involved. Anyway, I was thinking of going with the aftermarket adjustable toe arms over OEM because they have spherical (rigid) bushings and they will be arguably easier for a tech to adjust. Plus, I'm cheap and they're only $62 for a pair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexmed2002 Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 Plus, I'm cheap and they're only $62 for a pair. You don't want to go cheap on parts that can be life/death in certain situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgoodhue Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 Everything on rear of my car is rusted to sh**, so I would like to replace as much of it as I can. After doing some work on the rear today and having a good look at the subframe, I was shocked at how bad it is. It's way worse than my '09 Outback with 190k. I think replacing the whole thing might not be a bad idea, though I really don't want to even think about the work involved. Anyway, I was thinking of going with the aftermarket adjustable toe arms over OEM because they have spherical (rigid) bushings and they will be arguably easier for a tech to adjust. Plus, I'm cheap and they're only $62 for a pair. Is it surface rust or structural rust? The '11 GT I bought last year to fix wasn't that bad at all in-terms of rust for northeast car. I have a 140K mile 2009 outback it is worse but still not bad, nothing worries my structurally. I have SPC rear toe arms, the alignment shop couldn't get my GT into spec. It turned out that the 1st owner had installed offset upper control bushings to correct the rear camber. (Instead of adjustable rear LCA). The rear suspension seem like a lot of work, I started disabling my GT, but after realizing my offset upper control bushings did use the factory bolts, I just reassembled it because I didn't have another car to drive. Subaru changed the rear suspension in the 5th Gen quite a bit compared to prior gen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scubaboo Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 Everything on rear of my car is rusted to sh**, so I would like to replace as much of it as I can. After doing some work on the rear today and having a good look at the subframe, I was shocked at how bad it is. It's way worse than my '09 Outback with 190k. I think replacing the whole thing might not be a bad idea, though I really don't want to even think about the work involved. Anyway, I was thinking of going with the aftermarket adjustable toe arms over OEM because they have spherical (rigid) bushings and they will be arguably easier for a tech to adjust. Plus, I'm cheap and they're only $62 for a pair. I see! Yeah, definitely would be considering all options if that were the case, including those upgraded parts. Yeah the upper arms are pretty hard from what I've heard, you may be better off dropping the subframe to do all that. For my needs I decided against spherical joints in my suspension. From my research they add precision but at the expense of compliance and (arguably) durability. Which is why I chose the Whiteline camber arm that use a solid but relatively low durometer poly bushing, vs the SPC that uses a type of spherical joint. For ease of adjustment, here's what I gleaned from the techs who do my alignments...they dont mind cam bolts for toe adjusters, but they really dont like threaded adjusters for camber arms. Seems counter intuitive, but they say they have a harder time with those. Just sharing how I got to my current set up, good luck with yours! Should make a big diff with the sways and poly stuff you added! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plastixx Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 For my needs I decided against spherical joints in my suspension. From my research they add precision but at the expense of compliance and (arguably) durability. The rear of my Outback has 8 poly bushings, not including the RSB, and 6 spherical bushing. I did all of that about 2.5 years ago and 35k miles. The sphericals are still in good shape as far as I know... they don't make noise at least. NVH didn't increase much over stock even with all of that, though I'm not particularly sensitive those things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motorbreath Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 (edited) For our cars, I dont understand why you and another poster are looking to get the tierod-style toe arm when the OE arm is adjustable for toe from the factory via the its own cam bolt, separately from camber? Before I had posted to the thread the alignment technician had told me that he could not get the rear toe into spec and, separately, that the right rear link was slightly bent. I learned from a few others on this thread that the bent link is likely why the toe could not be brought into spec, but before that I thought more adjustment was needed and the tierod-style toe arm would do the trick. Anyway, several people have mentioned a spherical bushing versus a solid one, where exactly are these spherical bushings in the rear suspension? The ones I see all seem solid, like what the Whiteline kit has. EDIT: Google (or in my case, duckduckgo) is my friend, it seems like I should stick with the OEM style bushings in that they act as additional damping for NVH. Edited November 9, 2020 by motorbreath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scubaboo Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 ^good to know! I was apprehensive with the poly Whitelines adding NVH but my experience mirrors yours. Dunno if the majority is poly though lol! Same with the sphericals. Good you already know what to expect so shouldnt be a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motorbreath Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 The new adjustable rear lateral links arrive tomorrow, installation looks relatively simple except for the requirement in the service manual for the bushing to be tightened "in the state where the vehicle is at curb weight and the wheels are in full contact with the ground." I am not sure how to do that with the wheels on and the car not lifted, the car is too low for that. The only thing I can think of is to measure the distance from the top wheel stud to the wheel arch, then to jack up the knuckle to the same point (carefully) while I have the car lifted. Is there a better way to do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plastixx Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 The only thing I can think of is to measure the distance from the top wheel stud to the wheel arch, then to jack up the knuckle to the same point (carefully) while I have the car lifted. Is there a better way to do it? That's what I typically do. It doesn't need to be exact, just close enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cww516 Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 If you have a set of ramps, you can just leave the hardware loose enough to allow things to pivot and back on to the ramps before you do your final tightening. As to the risk involved, I'm too chicken to break stuck wheels free from the hubs by installing the lug nuts one turn shy of finger-tight and driving around the block, and I'd have no qualms about doing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motorbreath Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 So I just got the car back from the paint shop, it looks great, except for that I notice that the front-end is slightly higher than the rear. I had just done the suspension before I send it to the paint shop, used 2013/14 3.6R coils from the dealer and KYB dampers and mounts (for 2013/14 3.6R). From the tire to fender the distance is roughly 3.5" in the front and 2.5" in the rear. Any ideas? I am relatively sure I put everything together correctly, reused the rubber spring seats, made sure the conical washer was properly placed for the front struts, torqued everything properly. Any ideas about why the front-end would be higher? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scubaboo Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 ^So basically oem-spec parts? The fronts are higher than the rear from the factory. If you check you'll see most all lowering springs for our cars lower the fronts more than the rear because of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motorbreath Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 ^So basically oem-spec parts? The fronts are higher than the rear from the factory. If you check you'll see most all lowering springs for our cars lower the fronts more than the rear because of this. Yes, all OEM, just 2013/2014 parts on a 2010. I suspected this might be the case, but the difference in height seems more pronounced than what I have seen from pictures of other models. I guess I'll have to live with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plastixx Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 Guess you could shim the rear mounts if it really bothers you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scubaboo Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 Yes, all OEM, just 2013/2014 parts on a 2010. I suspected this might be the case, but the difference in height seems more pronounced than what I have seen from pictures of other models. I guess I'll have to live with it. Oh it is pretty noticeable, most people just pick the pics they post lol! I've considerd shimming the rear shocks to level it out as suggested. Primitive and a few other companies make spacers for the Outback that should work. Never tried though as I ended up with coilovers instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motorbreath Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 Guess you could shim the rear mounts if it really bothers you. I'll look into that, I'll need to check how much thread is left on the mounting studs. That being said, I do I have two new lower control arms/links with adjustable camber that I'll install first to see if they have any effect. The driver's side lower control arm is slightly bent and the alignment shop could not bring both camber and toe into spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgoodhue Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 It could also just need to settle. Drive it for a few hundred miles, before making any changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motorbreath Posted December 11, 2020 Share Posted December 11, 2020 It could also just need to settle. Drive it for a few hundred miles, before making any changes. I now have over a month on these new springs and about 200mi, so I am going to to ahead and buy a set of rear spacers from Subtle Solutions, aptly named "Saggy Butt" spacers. As I mentioned before, I have a set of adjustable rear end links/control arms to install, so installing the spacers in the rear will not be much of an inconvenience. HOWEVER, after many internet searches to figure out what is going on with this sagging issue, I have "found" new issues and am now mentally committed to 1) spacing out the rear wheels slightly to even out the front/rear wheelbase (front is slightly wider) and 2) get a set of wider+lower offset wheels/tires for the summer to fill-out the wheel wells more for aesthetics. I'll start a build thread and stop hijacking other peoples threads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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