Looking to buy a high mileage 2009 Subaru Legacy 3.0R Limited

[RS4Drew]

Not a Subaru Legacy.

[CapnJack]

SO....

 

1) I understand and have really been tongue and cheek with my subtle troll responses. My toyota has 257k on it and had to replace original wear parts and major items along the way over the last 4 years and 60,000 miles of ownership

 

I get it

 

No worries.

 

At the end of the day, under $5K out the door for that car is a screaming deal. The question is, is it worth it to you?

IMHO, you will be hard pressed to find a more capable AWD car (with snowtires), with the hp/torque, and all the features (heated seats/mirrors/wipers, auto climate control, and navigation) at that price. Will the car run another 100K? There is a good chance it will. Will it require maintenance along the way? Absolutely, but I don't think any of us can tell you what and when and how much. The 3.0 is arguably one of the most reliable engines Subaru built. The 4th gen platform is one of the nicest to work on IMHO but some of the components wear out faster than they should. Even after driving several brand new cars, my car still makes me smile when I get in and press down on the go-pedal.

[RS4Drew]

No worries.

 

At the end of the day, under $5K out the door for that car is a screaming deal. The question is, is it worth it to you?

IMHO, you will be hard pressed to find a more capable AWD car (with snowtires), with the hp/torque, and all the features (heated seats/mirrors/wipers, auto climate control, and navigation) at that price. Will the car run another 100K? There is a good chance it will. Will it require maintenance along the way? Absolutely, but I don't think any of us can tell you what and when and how much. The 3.0 is arguably one of the most reliable engines Subaru built. The 4th gen platform is one of the nicest to work on IMHO but some of the components wear out faster than they should. Even after driving several brand new cars, my car still makes me smile when I get in and press down on the go-pedal.

 

Thank Jack, but with tires and PA inspection it brings the car to $5,300-$5,400, but the tires or Cat is not a deal breaker, it is the $500 for documentation fees, why?

 

That's what made me walk away not the car itself or the mileage or the repairs....

 

P.S.

 

It would have been $4,166 out the door and I could worry about PA TTL later and then inspection, etc....just adds up, and where is that $500 going, whose pocket????

 

I never paid a doc fee at any dealership before and will not start now...A screaming deal, sure, but not gonna fork over $500 for some bogus expense the dealer cannot explain to me or is unwilling to.....

[sunny5280]

Sunny:

 

2) You are correct: it is really $4,100 for the car, not including the TTL I have to pay for PA being $228 taxes and $125 fees to the state and plates....

 

I asked about the doc fee last night on my way to the dealership and they were like that's what we always charge for a car transaction.

 

I bought my last 3 cars with no doc fee packed into the purchase price, taxes or state fees....$500 for what, I told them I was not buying the car if you could not tell me where and why by line item I am being charged the $500 doc fee

If it isn't obvious from my comments these kinds of fees are a pet peeve of mine. They have the effect of "hiding" the true price of a vehicle. On a $50K vehicle it's not a significant amount (1% or negotiated price). However on a vehicle that has a price of $3,600 it raises the cost of the vehicle by 14%. That's a significant amount.

 

So the 196K car with bad tires and a bad cat is available for purchase

I kind of feel like Charlie Brown and the football...lol! Does this mean you have scrapped all plans to buy it?

[sunny5280]

Thank Jack, but with tires and PA inspection it brings the car to $5,300-$5,400, but the tires or Cat is not a deal breaker, it is the $500 for documentation fees, why?

 

That's what made me walk away not the car itself or the mileage or the repairs....

 

P.S.

 

It would have been $4,166 out the door and I could worry about PA TTL later and then inspection, etc....just adds up, and where is that $500 going, whose pocket????

 

I never paid a doc fee at any dealership before and will not start now...A screaming deal, sure, but not gonna fork over $500 for some bogus expense the dealer cannot explain to me or is unwilling to.....

Even though I'm really anti fee I would not cut off my nose to spite my face. If you feel $4,166 (the true cost of the car) is a smoking deal for it then buy it.

[sunny5280]

No worries.

 

At the end of the day, under $5K out the door for that car is a screaming deal. The question is, is it worth it to you?

IMHO, you will be hard pressed to find a more capable AWD car (with snowtires), with the hp/torque, and all the features (heated seats/mirrors/wipers, auto climate control, and navigation) at that price. Will the car run another 100K? There is a good chance it will. Will it require maintenance along the way? Absolutely, but I don't think any of us can tell you what and when and how much. The 3.0 is arguably one of the most reliable engines Subaru built. The 4th gen platform is one of the nicest to work on IMHO but some of the components wear out faster than they should. Even after driving several brand new cars, my car still makes me smile when I get in and press down on the go-pedal.

 

This ignores the fact there could be an expensive repair which would negate that "screaming" out of the deal.

 

Let's say he pays $4,100 for it and then has to put another $2,500 into it. His total cost is now $6,600. Is it still a smoking deal?

[RS4Drew]

Even though I'm really anti fee I would not cut off my nose to spite my face. If you feel $4,166 (the true cost of the car) is a smoking deal for it then buy it.

 

Well this might be the swan song of this story....$4,166 good price, but the doc fee is not something I have paid previously, so yes the true price of the car is $4,166

[CapnJack]

This ignores the fact there could be an expensive repair which would negate that "screaming" out of the deal.

 

Let's say he pays $4,100 for it and then has to put another $2,500 into it. His total cost is now $6,600. Is it still a smoking deal?

 

It becomes a fair price for the car from a dealer. In that case, I've got one with less miles on it, that needs nothing, with a bunch of extra goodies I would sell for $6500.

 

EDIT: My doc fee is much less than $500 too. (like close to zero)

[sunny5280]

Well this might be the swan song of this story....$4,166 good price, but the doc fee is not something I have paid previously, so yes the true price of the car is $4,166

If you feel it's a good price then I wouldn't let the doc fee scuttle a deal.

[sunny5280]

It becomes a fair price for the car from a dealer. In that case, I've got one with less miles on it, that needs nothing, with a bunch of extra goodies I would sell for $6500.

 

EDIT: My doc fee is much less than $500 too. (like close to zero)

 

Exactly. It's no longer a smoking deal but rather the price you would pay from a dealer for one which doesn't have an unknown. Further he could purchase it from a private party for considerably less.

[RS4Drew]

Exactly. It's no longer a smoking deal but rather the price you would pay from a dealer for one which doesn't have an unknown. Further he could purchase it from a private party for considerably less.

 

So if I buy the car. Get a state inspection and emissions done and put new tires on it and drive it for 9-12 months and it has 200,000 miles on it and needs nothing, but I have not replaced the Cat, if that is what the issue is, can I get $4,500-$5,000 through a private sale?

[sunny5280]

So if I buy the car. Get a state inspection and emissions done and put new tires on it and drive it for 9-12 months and it has 200,000 miles on it and needs nothing, but I have not replaced the Cat, if that is what the issue is, can I get $4,500-$5,000 through a private sale?

 

I checked KBB for private sale values in very good condition and came up with approximately $4,500. A check of the local CL shows only one 3.0R with an asking price of $8,500 (though it has considerably lower miles at 136K):

 

https://denver.craigslist.org/ctd/d/subaru-legacy-brown/6198923869.html

[Dispatch20]

I checked KBB for private sale values in very good condition and came up with approximately $4,500. A check of the local CL shows only one 3.0R with an asking price of $8,500 (though it has considerably lower miles at 136K):

 

https://denver.craigslist.org/ctd/d/subaru-legacy-brown/6198923869.html

 

You can see 23 3.0R listings nationwide right now at cargurus. I'm not sure if this link will work right: https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/inventorylisting/viewDetailsFilterViewInventoryListing.action?sourceContext=carGurusHomePage_false_0&formSourceTag=112&newSearchFromOverviewPage=true&inventorySearchWidgetType=AUTO&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity=d378&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity2=&zip=07097&distance=50000&searchChanged=true&trimNames=3.0+R&trimNames=3.0+R+Limited&modelChanged=false&filtersModified=true

[sunny5280]

You can see 23 3.0R listings nationwide right now at cargurus. I'm not sure if this link will work right: https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/inventorylisting/viewDetailsFilterViewInventoryListing.action?sourceContext=carGurusHomePage_false_0&formSourceTag=112&newSearchFromOverviewPage=true&inventorySearchWidgetType=AUTO&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity=d378&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity2=&zip=07097&distance=50000&searchChanged=true&trimNames=3.0+R&trimNames=3.0+R+Limited&modelChanged=false&filtersModified=true

 

The link does work. Looks as if the OP is willing to do a little driving / shipping he can buy one with 130K miles for slightly more than the $6,600 in my example. I see the vehicle the OP is considering is listed.

[laz]

Thank Jack, but with tires and PA inspection it brings the car to $5,300-$5,400, but the tires or Cat is not a deal breaker, it is the $500 for documentation fees, why?

 

That's what made me walk away not the car itself or the mileage or the repairs....

 

P.S.

 

It would have been $4,166 out the door and I could worry about PA TTL later and then inspection, etc....just adds up, and where is that $500 going, whose pocket????

 

 

The dealership makes maybe a little profit. Do you think it's free to keep a business going? I believe you are more afraid of the car not being perfect. If it didn't have a CEL you would have paid the doc fee.

[sunny5280]

The dealership as maybe a little profit. Do you think it's free to keep a business going? I believe you are more afraid of the car not being perfect. If it didn't have a CEL you would have paid the doc fee.

 

The dealer is more than capable of making a profit without adding fees. My local grocery store is profitable and they don't charge me a fee to stock the shelves. The local hardware store remains profitable and doesn't charge me any fees. In fact there are a few dealers in the area who remain profitable and do not charge any fees. How are all these places able to remain profitable without charging fees?

 

Fact is the dealer makes profit on every sale they make despite the fee (and their claims they're losing money on every sale they make). In this case the dealer may lose money but not because he doesn't want to pay the fee but rather they took it in on trade under the assumption it was in good operational condition and, subsequent to that, they discovered it has a problem.

 

Fees are just BS dealers like to throw in to pad their pockets.

[laz]

The dealer is more than capable of making a profit without adding fees. My local grocery store is profitable and they don't charge me a fee to stock the shelves. The local hardware store remains profitable and doesn't charge me any fees. In fact there are a few dealers in the area who remain profitable and do not charge any fees. How are all these places able to remain profitable without charging fees?

 

Please let's compare apples to apples. You can't compare the overhead of a grocery store selling dry goods to a dealership selling automobiles.

 

If you think you are not getting charged fees by all dealerships then you are dreaming. They all do it, they just do it in different ways. Be it through financing, padding, or any other means, there is always a charge when you buy from a dealership. Also if you think they are making a huge profit on a $3800 sale then you are mistaken as well. That dealership has been pretty flexible and for the OP to walk out on a sale for $500 does not make sense.

 

Fact is the dealer makes profit on every sale they make despite the fee (and their claims they're losing money on every sale they make). In this case the dealer may lose money but not because he doesn't want to pay the fee but rather they took it in on trade under the assumption it was in good operational condition and, subsequent to that, they discovered it has a problem.

 

Fees are just BS dealers like to throw in to pad their pockets.

 

Once again when dealerships operate at high volume then they tend to make more profit. I am not sure how this Honda dealership works, but if it is their policy to charge doc fees, and they do for every sale, then what makes the OP so special that he does not have to pay it? Believe me they can sell that car at auction as-is, some other dealership will buy it, fix it on the cheap, and sell it for a profit. The OP can also buy it, fix it on the cheap, enjoy it, and then sell it and he can come out even or maybe even make a little profit.

 

He does not have to buy new parts. You can purchase used cat's and make the car 100%. It just baffles my mind that the OP made all the legwork, researched the car's history, likes what he sees, knows from the getgo that there is a dealer doc fee, and at the end the fee is the deciding factor why he is not buying it.

 

I stand by my statement that if the car did not have the CEL he would pay the doc's fee no questions asked.

[The 2Fiver]

Also if you think they are making a huge profit on a $3800 sale then you are mistaken as well.

 

They shot for a huge profit at the $5500 asking price and could'nt have paid much for the car to go and settle on a $1700 lower price. Buying heavily used from a dealership is always sketchy. Coulda, woulda, shoulda but walked in the end. Sometimes better safe than sorry.

[laz]

They shot for a huge profit at the $5500 asking price and could'nt have paid much for the car to go and settle on a $1700 lower price. Buying heavily used from a dealership is always sketchy. Coulda, woulda, shoulda but walked in the end. Sometimes better safe than sorry.

 

Yes they did, but that type of car goes for that price in that region of the US. If it was grossly overpriced then this thread would not exist.

 

I think it is time for a mod to just close this thread. There is no more sense is discussing the what ifs.

[sunny5280]

Please let's compare apples to apples. You can't compare the overhead of a grocery store selling dry goods to a dealership selling automobiles.

Why do you not consider it a fair comparison? Fact is all of the businesses have overhead and I see a car dealership's overhead no more out of line than that for the businesses I mentioned.

 

If you think you are not getting charged fees by all dealerships then you are dreaming. They all do it, they just do it in different ways. Be it through financing, padding, or any other means, there is always a charge when you buy from a dealership. Also if you think they are making a huge profit on a $3800 sale then you are mistaken as well. That dealership has been pretty flexible and for the OP to walk out on a sale for $500 does not make sense.

The only way they charge me fees is if they "bury" them in the price of the vehicle...as it should be.

 

As for the profit on a $3,800 sale...I don't care what their profit is. If $3,800 isn't too low to make an acceptable (to them) profit then they need to adjust the selling price accordingly. What they shouldn't be doing is listing the car for a penny and then adding $4,099 worth of fees to make the sale profitable.

 

Once again when dealerships operate at high volume then they tend to make more profit. I am not sure how this Honda dealership works, but if it is their policy to charge doc fees, and they do for every sale, then what makes the OP so special that he does not have to pay it? Believe me they can sell that car at auction as-is, some other dealership will buy it, fix it on the cheap, and sell it for a profit. The OP can also buy it, fix it on the cheap, enjoy it, and then sell it and he can come out even or maybe even make a little profit.

 

What makes him so special that he shouldn't have to pay it? Nothing. But that doesn't mean he should pay it. I've bought a lot of cars and for almost everyone of those purchases I paid the fee. Why? Because, as you said, they charge it to everyone.

 

The difference is I negotiate the fee off the price. If the negotiated price is $15,500 and the fees are $500 I tell them I'm not paying the fees. When they respond with "We have to charge it to everyone" I say "OK, then take it off the price of the vehicle". Had that happen with my X5 purchase. They said they had to charge me the $500 fee. I said fine, take it off the price of the vehicle. They said they would split the difference. To which I said no. Salesman said are you really going to lose this deal over $250? To which I responded "Are you?". Needless to say I came home with an X5.

 

He does not have to buy new parts. You can purchase used cat's and make the car 100%. It just baffles my mind that the OP made all the legwork, researched the car's history, likes what he sees, knows from the getgo that there is a dealer doc fee, and at the end the fee is the deciding factor why he is not buying it.

 

I stand by my statement that if the car did not have the CEL he would pay the doc's fee no questions asked.

 

Maybe he would because, without the CEL, he felt the car was a better value. As I said...he shouldn't cut off his nose to spite his face. But given the circumstances there is a known risk (i.e. the CEL). To summarize:

 

• Is the car worth $3,600?
  
• Is the car worth $4,100?
  

 

The former is what everyone is basing their decision on because "it's the price of the car". But the latter represents the real price of the car. At $3,600 there's less of a risk than $4,100. But the dealer, through their fee "tactics" has you talking as if the selling price is $3,600 instead of $4,100.

[RS4Drew]

The dealership makes maybe a little profit. Do you think it's free to keep a business going? I believe you are more afraid of the car not being perfect. If it didn't have a CEL you would have paid the doc fee.

 

The dealer is entitled to make money. I understand the cost of doing business and the lights on and doors open aspect of doing business, but not at the expense of $500 inflated fee.

 

The car not being perfect is not a big deal, neither is the known issue where it'll pass inspection and unless the cat falls off I have nothing to worry about.

 

I have a CEL light on my Toyota and I ain't selling that anytime soon.

[RS4Drew]

Yes they did, but that type of car goes for that price in that region of the US. If it was grossly overpriced then this thread would not exist.

 

I think it is time for a mod to just close this thread. There is no more sense is discussing the what ifs.

 

Last time I checked Iaz, I have been open, honest, and polite. My thread while long and annoying to you, has not been insulting nor offensive in language or content.

 

And the last time I checked, we do live in the United States of America, a democracy and having freedom of speech.....

[laz]

 

The difference is I negotiate the fee off the price. If the negotiated price is $15,500 and the fees are $500 I tell them I'm not paying the fees. When they respond with "We have to charge it to everyone" I say "OK, then take it off the price of the vehicle". Had that happen with my X5 purchase. They said they had to charge me the $500 fee. I said fine, take it off the price of the vehicle. They said they would split the difference. To which I said no. Salesman said are you really going to lose this deal over $250? To which I responded "Are you?". Needless to say I came home with an X5.

 

 

 

Maybe he would because, without the CEL, he felt the car was a better value. As I said...he shouldn't cut off his nose to spite his face. But given the circumstances there is a known risk (i.e. the CEL). To summarize:

 

• Is the car worth $3,600?
  
• Is the car worth $4,100?
  

 

The former is what everyone is basing their decision on because "it's the price of the car". But the latter represents the real price of the car. At $3,600 there's less of a risk than $4,100. But the dealer, through their fee "tactics" has you talking as if the selling price is $3,600 instead of $4,100.

 

You keep on bringing up your X5 purchase. Once again it is a different product being sold. I am not sure if you bought it new or used, but it is a bigger money transaction where there is more wiggle room.

 

The problem I see is that a lot of people automatically think the dealership is always out to steal your hard earned money. So what if the car is $4100. Is that a horrible price for the product? Comparing it to other cars in the area I think not. People suggest for the OP to travel, but how much is his time worth?

 

In the end only the OP knows what he wants, but if the cat at hand is really what he wants then a doc fee should not be the deciding factor.

[laz]

The dealer is entitled to make money. I understand the cost of doing business and the lights on and doors open aspect of doing business, but not at the expense of $500 inflated fee.

 

The car not being perfect is not a big deal, neither is the known issue where it'll pass inspection and unless the cat falls off I have nothing to worry about.

 

I have a CEL light on my Toyota and I ain't selling that anytime soon.

 

Did you not know the doc fee from the getgo? If so why did you keep on going back to that dealership?

 

Last time I checked Iaz, I have been open, honest, and polite. My thread while long and annoying to you, has not been insulting nor offensive in language or content.

 

And the last time I checked, we do live in the United States of America, a democracy and having freedom of speech.....

 

Last time I checked I have not insulted you and have been polite. I'm just stating my opinion how I see it.

[RS4Drew]

Why do you not consider it a fair comparison? Fact is all of the businesses have overhead and I see a car dealership's overhead no more out of line than that for the businesses I mentioned.

 

 

The only way they charge me fees is if they "bury" them in the price of the vehicle...as it should be.

 

As for the profit on a $3,800 sale...I don't care what their profit is. If $3,800 isn't too low to make an acceptable (to them) profit then they need to adjust the selling price accordingly. What they shouldn't be doing is listing the car for a penny and then adding $4,099 worth of fees to make the sale profitable.

 

 

 

What makes him so special that he shouldn't have to pay it? Nothing. But that doesn't mean he should pay it. I've bought a lot of cars and for almost everyone of those purchases I paid the fee. Why? Because, as you said, they charge it to everyone.

 

The difference is I negotiate the fee off the price. If the negotiated price is $15,500 and the fees are $500 I tell them I'm not paying the fees. When they respond with "We have to charge it to everyone" I say "OK, then take it off the price of the vehicle". Had that happen with my X5 purchase. They said they had to charge me the $500 fee. I said fine, take it off the price of the vehicle. They said they would split the difference. To which I said no. Salesman said are you really going to lose this deal over $250? To which I responded "Are you?". Needless to say I came home with an X5.

 

 

 

Maybe he would because, without the CEL, he felt the car was a better value. As I said...he shouldn't cut off his nose to spite his face. But given the circumstances there is a known risk (i.e. the CEL). To summarize:

 

• Is the car worth $3,600?
  
• Is the car worth $4,100?
  

 

The former is what everyone is basing their decision on because "it's the price of the car". But the latter represents the real price of the car. At $3,600 there's less of a risk than $4,100. But the dealer, through their fee "tactics" has you talking as if the selling price is $3,600 instead of $4,100.

 

Sunny- Thank you for your insightful and thoughtful comments tot he above. Perhaps I did get my price and let the doc fee bother me (to which i mentioned this to the salesman numerous times before purchasing the car) more than I originally stated and I focused on the price of the car more than getting the doc fee waived.

 

My decision not to buy the car had nothing to do with the CEL, although in 1-2 months after digesting matter fully, I could re-evaluate and say honestly that played a very minor role, like 2-3% of my decision.

 

1) Attached you will find my documents on purchases of our 15 Outback in April 2017. Look closely, paid $21,200 and no doc fee other taxes and state fees and this was at a Honda dealership, like the 2009 Subaru.

 

2) Attached is the document for our 11 Outback purchase from our local Subaru dealership in Jan. 2015. Again, no doc fee charged or added to the price of the car or transaction.

 

3) Attached a finalized dealer worksheet from August 2016, where I was buying a 2007 Acura TL Type S....Here the dealership did charge a doc fee of $135, not $500

 

So, even though I did all the research and beat up the salesman and his managers to get my price, if I feel the doc fee is fishy and yes my bad for not addressing that head on and NOT the CEL as the reason I decided not to buy the car, at 14% added on that cannot be properly explained to me, why should I buy the car, just because I got my price and to save face, perhaps, but my decision i'll have to be confident in.