Subaru H6 Twin Turbo MY06/07

[rfd425]

I really think SOA is loosing money and territory not building an even more powerful Legacy GT, STi call it whatever, to compete with more $$$ sport cars, and on top of it, the Subie reliability, which Benz, Audi, Volvo don't have it...

 

+1

[ChruiSSer]

From what I've gathered, you won't see the H6 turbo'd in the Legacy, or in the Impreza. It doesn't make sense. Especially since Impreza's and Foresters come FROM Japan and the Legacy's, Outback's and Tribeca's are made in the U.S. It doesn't make sense. The EJ257 fits in the engine bay pretty snug as is. The 3.0L would be a nightmare turbo'd in there.

 

I think you'll see the legacy stay the same, maybe some sort of Spec B with increased power in a year or two. The STi might get an increase. Your GOING to see a turbo'd Tribeca model. Probably not for 2 years, but you will see one.... Also, the H6 will be in the new sedan they are developing. It probably won't be on sale till 2009 or even 2010. It will probably have the Turbo'd H6 that the Tribeca will get. I think you'll see at least 325+hp on that motor. It'll be a torque monster!

[ChruiSSer]

The H6 is available in the "Legacy" as either the Outback Sedan or L.L.Bean Sedan, or the 3.0R or VDC or L.L.Bean Wagon. It will fit in the Legacy's.

[Tommyh]

The H6 is available in the "Legacy" as either the Outback Sedan or L.L.Bean Sedan, or the 3.0R or VDC or L.L.Bean Wagon. It will fit in the Legacy's.

 

I'm guessing that he ment the actual Legacy, like you and I drive. Most other parts of the world the Spec B is powered by the N/A H6 IIRC.

[BigT]

Not to discredit you guys, but didn't SOA just lay out a bunch of money and effort in revamping the legacy, and the WRX. They also updated all of their models, and introduced a brand new model. I suspect that in terms of time frame for a more powerfully packed Legacy we are talking about more than two or three years. The fact is that although we love our Subarus, and their sales have increased they still don't have a large hold on the car market in the US. I think that they should, however the import market is swamped with overpriced maximas and camrys. From a business point of view Subaru would have to see a steady increase in sales over at least a 4 year period before they would even think about bringing a Legacy Sti over. Remember if they brought one over how many of us would have taken out an extra loan and got that one instead of our current cars, thereby decreasing the market for our cars. They want to be able to sustain both cars in the current market, and right now they can't. So it looks like we're gonna have to grow up with this car and maybe get a Legacy Sti in the next generation. (2010-2015)

[fzanetti]

Very wise comments BigT, but I still believe that there is still market for a 400-450hp sedan/wagon in the US, even if we were talking 200-500/year sales... Look at M3's, Audi RS4's, Mercedes AMG models, they sell (and not a few only), why? Because of their names, labels, yeah right labels, ppl who buy those cars, look primarily at their brand, then at the car they are buying (specs, features etc), that's why a lot of those customers, buy brand new cars, use them for a few years and go back to the dealership and trade in for a brand new one...

 

Anyways, let's keep our fingers crossed and hope for the next couple of years, they do bring some new and more powerful and modern machines here to the States....

 

Flavio Zanetti

Boston, MA

[rfd425]

I agree with Flavio. The Legacy STI (or whatever) doesn't even have to necessarily be profitable on its own, because it could have a valuable marketing effect for the whole Subaru brand. Let the car mags test one and rave about it, and suddenly the LGT becomes the little brother of a supercar. Even people with 2.5i's could get a body kit and wheels, and feel like their car is related to the great Legacy STI. It would also be a showcase for Subaru's performance engineering prowess. It would recast Subaru in the public eye as a true performance brand to be reckoned with, instead of a maker of solid, utilitarian people-movers.

[fzanetti]

I agree with Flavio. The Legacy STI (or whatever) doesn't even have to necessarily be profitable on its own, because it could have a valuable marketing effect for the whole Subaru brand. Let the car mags test one and rave about it, and suddenly the LGT becomes the little brother of a supercar. Even people with 2.5i's could get a body kit and wheels, and feel like their car is related to the great Legacy STI. It would also be a showcase for Subaru's performance engineering prowess. It would recast Subaru in the public eye as a true performance brand to be reckoned with, instead of a maker of solid, utilitarian people-movers.

 

Exactly,

 

This is how Audi established itself as a performance oriented brand, bringing the S and RS line to the public, where those cars were initially designed to win Le Mans, Rally competitions, etc and all....

 

And it did work, look at Audi today!!! We all have seen that commercial (at least the ones 28+ years old hehehe), where a guy is driving and he sees the 4 rings, and immidiately he moves to the right lane to let the Audi pass him, therefore a symbol of speed and sportiveness...

 

;-)

 

IMHO this should be a path SOA would be profitting a lot from....

 

My 2 cents heehhehe

 

Flavio Zanetti

Boston, MA

[wukindada]

After owning an Audi now I know why the guy moves over in the commercial...so his wallet doesn't get swiped by the guy in the Audi blowing past him...on the way to the Service Dept:eek:

AudiS4 Very fun car....until the warranty run's out!

[fzanetti]

After owning an Audi now I know why the guy moves over in the commercial...so his wallet doesn't get swiped by the guy in the Audi blowing past him...on the way to the Service Dept:eek:

AudiS4 Very fun car....until the warranty run's out!

 

Hahhaahhahaah

 

I know your feelings man, I have owned a couple of Audi models, (A4, TT, S4) and currently still own an A6 2.8 Quattro with 79K miles - howeve I am still coverred by Audi Assured Warranty until 100K miles... hehehehehehehe

 

Flavio Zanetti

Boston, MA

[BigT]

FZANETTI: Does that mean that your gonna start taking our wallets in 21K miles?

[rfd425]

Count me in as a member of Audi Anonymous!

[fzanetti]

FZANETTI: Does that mean that your gonna start taking our wallets in 21K miles?

 

The car is for sale by the way!!! heheheeheh Awesome vehicle, perfect for cruising, traveling, etc heheeheheh

 

Flavio Zanetti

Boston, MA

[turboliberty]

IMO, Subaru should offer a fully loaded 5 passenger 370hp H6-TT B9 Tribeca with 19 inch polished BBS wheels, a sport tuned suspension, DVD and Navi, and mesh grilles in place of those chrome horizontal bars. Put it up against the X5 4.8is and the Benz ML500 and price it in the 45k range. Subaru may/will not do it, but it would certainly put them on the premium brand map.

 

As for the Legacy line I would suspect that maybe we'll see that new TPH (Turbo Parallel Hybrid) powerplant in a GT or Outback before we see a Legacy H6-TT.

[SUBE555]

http://homepage.mac.com/futureofx/.Pictures/HOST/SubaruMovement.jpg

[SUBE555]

I think that little diagram I made a couple months ago says it all for Subaru. And the Spec B is not the Legacy STI as we all know and have noted.

 

I also believe there is such a market for a car like a Legacy STI. The American market however basically requires the 6-cylinder, and to get the desired 120hp/L or more power levels, forced induction is basically a requirement unless they rewrite their formula on the engine systems (which I think needs to be done sooner than later with direct injection and camless valvetrains as large diesel trucks and even some cars will have around the 2007 calendar timeframe.) As others have noted, other manufacturers are producing prestegeous amounts of power and can harness it, but in general there is serious compromises. Either it's comfort, performance, price, whatever, nobody has a winning package that's reasonable, comfortable, quick, and agile all at the same time. I think a Legacy STI has the right platform to start from and is much lighter than the much higher esteemed models as well. If weight figures of around 3400 lbs or slightly more could be achieved, I believe there is a good start. Much of the performance goodies to help it perform and stick to the road are already available including the Brembo stoppers, good lightweight suspension links/bars/springs and Bilstein dampers, the transmission solution and engine are the only real questions. To me the only way I'd take it is with a DSG-type of transmission or manual H-pattern tranny with 3 good diffs, and I could omit the drivers controlled center diff too. A turbocharged, 3.0L direct injection H6 would be premium if you ask me. Direct injection helps in several ways. Forget tumble generator valves, increase compression possible, better efficiency, better emissions, better economy- it all helps in various ways.

 

We've all see how much goodies come on the new Mazdaspeed 6, why can't these things like HID be options at least? It's becoming somewhat commonplace. I'd take HID's and leave NAV as an option that I'd not elect to get.

 

Seriously though, there is a formula to making this work and whomever noted how Audi did it, Subaru can do it too. How many of us remember the days of the old Audi 5000 and such, man I didn't look at them much better than any other car, now look at Audi some 15-20 years later, what a difference. While I don't think Subaru will rise to quite that level nor do I think they should as they serve best in the current segments and perhaps also moving into just slightly higher positions as well as market allows, I can see many similarities in quality changes, etc.

 

Just my opinions. ...And if I ever finish up that letter to SoA, I've only been working on it for months and months, I just never find an itteration I like, lol. I'm too much of a detail oriented individual.

[fzanetti]

I think that little diagram I made a couple months ago says it all for Subaru. And the Spec B is not the Legacy STI as we all know and have noted.

 

I also believe there is such a market for a car like a Legacy STI. The American market however basically requires the 6-cylinder, and to get the desired 120hp/L or more power levels, forced induction is basically a requirement unless they rewrite their formula on the engine systems (which I think needs to be done sooner than later with direct injection and camless valvetrains as large diesel trucks and even some cars will have around the 2007 calendar timeframe.) As others have noted, other manufacturers are producing prestegeous amounts of power and can harness it, but in general there is serious compromises. Either it's comfort, performance, price, whatever, nobody has a winning package that's reasonable, comfortable, quick, and agile all at the same time. I think a Legacy STI has the right platform to start from and is much lighter than the much higher esteemed models as well. If weight figures of around 3400 lbs or slightly more could be achieved, I believe there is a good start. Much of the performance goodies to help it perform and stick to the road are already available including the Brembo stoppers, good lightweight suspension links/bars/springs and Bilstein dampers, the transmission solution and engine are the only real questions. To me the only way I'd take it is with a DSG-type of transmission or manual H-pattern tranny with 3 good diffs, and I could omit the drivers controlled center diff too. A turbocharged, 3.0L direct injection H6 would be premium if you ask me. Direct injection helps in several ways. Forget tumble generator valves, increase compression possible, better efficiency, better emissions, better economy- it all helps in various ways.

 

We've all see how much goodies come on the new Mazdaspeed 6, why can't these things like HID be options at least? It's becoming somewhat commonplace. I'd take HID's and leave NAV as an option that I'd not elect to get.

 

Seriously though, there is a formula to making this work and whomever noted how Audi did it, Subaru can do it too. How many of us remember the days of the old Audi 5000 and such, man I didn't look at them much better than any other car, now look at Audi some 15-20 years later, what a difference. While I don't think Subaru will rise to quite that level nor do I think they should as they serve best in the current segments and perhaps also moving into just slightly higher positions as well as market allows, I can see many similarities in quality changes, etc.

 

Just my opinions. ...And if I ever finish up that letter to SoA, I've only been working on it for months and months, I just never find an itteration I like, lol. I'm too much of a detail oriented individual.

 

Very well written man......

 

Please finish up that letter!!!!

 

Hehehehe

 

Flavio Zanetti

Boston, MA

[agctr]

Yeah damn....... FINISH IT.....................

 

Flavio, that letter has been in the making for months. When Seth finally does get it finished, it will be a well polished piece that should hopefully make, not only SoA sit up and take notice, but the rest of the entire Subaru company globally.

 

Again Flavio, you have some really well thought about comments in this thread, pleasure to read.

Ada///M.

[red beast]

update

 

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-10/423426/SubaruMovement1.jpg

[andrew.anderson]

I would buy a 350hp-450hp Twin Turbo H6 Subaru even if it had an auto. Obviouslly a manual would be prefered but a TT H6 Subaru is cool no matter what transmission you have.

[JonFo]

I think all this TT H6 is nice talk, but we will never see it. Here’s why:

 

Subaru needs to reinforce its image as a technology innovator and be seen as slightly ‘different’. One more large displacement boosted gas burner is not how to do that. They want to impress with brains, not brawn.

 

Don’t mean they won’t deliver something that can go fast. But remember, Gas has been/will be >$3Gal in the US, so a 17MPG TT H6 Subaru is a non-starter, not matter what.

 

Therefore, I predict our next 300 to 400hp Subaru will be a hybrid drive train system, more than likely coupling a Turbo 2.5 (current GT motor) powering the front wheels along with an electric rear wheel drive, eliminating the center diff and driveshaft for some weight savings and efficiency gains.

 

The current Subaru TPH is nice for the econobox mileage wars, but alone will not deliver the kind of power Subaru will need to compete with something like a Honda DualNote (look it up, that’s a 400hp hybrid concept).

 

Still the dream Legacy STI/h (for hybrid) would have a TPH drive on the front, electric rear, some great super capacitors and a very slick hybrid ECU/power controller.

Ship that in Wagon form, and I’m all over it.

[Jon in CT]

Subaru has a two-pronged strategy for its models, which is illustrated in this slide from May, 2004.

http://tinypic.com/fc8h37.jpg

 

At that point in time, Subaru had not yet named the B9 Tribeca. The initial Tribeca is intended to compete against the base versions of the BMW X5, Volvo XC90. Prior to the introduction of the Tribeca, every Subaru model line had a high performance version (even the Baja). I believe Subaru intends to add a high performance version of the Tribeca, too, so that it can compete against all versions of the BMW X5, Volvo XC90 and even the Audi Q7. The only powerplant that I can envision which could be available in the immediate future for such a role is the twin-turbo EZ30.

[SUBE555]

For schizzle me nizzle, Jon has migrated. Nice seeing you around Jon.

 

While I know a lot even the mfgs take a lot of stock in hybrid technology, I'm not on quite the same page as many of them because for one reason, they're trying to band-aid the internal combustion engines inefficiencies instead of trying to improve that part additional to hybrid. Yes, it would be venturing into new territory leaving cams, throttle bodies, and port fuel injection to collect dust, but I believe it needs to be done and sooner than later. Much of the technology is already available, it's just manufacturers still resting on their laurals, not wanting to invest in something that could potentially kick off sales if efficiencies and power outputs prove the technology useful while also being reliable. I could more than live with a naturally aspirated Legacy STI with an EZ30R if it was capable of producing 300-340hp, near 300ft-lbs and weighing in at 3400lbs or less. I think they could do it as well. Given the abilities of camless technology, which is reliable, with infinite amounts of valve lift, duration, and seating speeds, an engine can be tuned for greater reduction in emissions with increased fuel economy and at the same time produce a good bit more torque as well as more top-end power. The rotating mass that is the cams and valvetrain would be replaced by solenoid-controlled valves and a slightly larger alternator, thus taking out additonal rotating mass and mass in general. The throttle body can be removed as well due to the valves able to now control flow independantly with sophisticated programming leading to greater flow on the inlet side. Direct injection allows for much greater control over the combustion process injecting fuel in the compression cycle just prior to the combustion cycle. Compression can be increased for greater efficiency and emissions can be greatly reduced as richer conditions need not be used as heavily for the safety of the engine and lesser tendencies for detonation.

 

I believe through a combination of technologies the best of efficiency available in the current form of the internal combustion engine can be had, on one side very low emissions with a very noticeable increase in fuel economy, and at the same time more power available upon demand. Yes, the electronic tuning will be more complex, but for good reasons. The cams are the biggest crutch of the modern internal combustion engine (aside friction losses and the rotating mass constantly changing directions), however, the cams which are designed to run a certain way can be replaced in favor of a system that is quite possibly less costly to produce and has a much broader ability set with seemingly infinite amounts of tuning ability.

 

I believe it would be in Subaru's best interest for R&D funding and manufacturing costs to produce a new engine formula, containing several new technologies at the same time. They could push through their C/Ns and propogate engineering changes all at the same time once technolgies tested and proven versus compromising several times with several major redesigns, especially since much of the work would be in the cylinder heads already. It only makes the most sense and actually producing these technolgies first in a higher-performance model with a lower production run would allow Subaru to make sure the technology is proven to handle higher loads and conditions and thus is more than suitable for the mainstream vehicles.

 

Now that is just my opinion on engine technoligies, but I think that is the way things should be done and for those reasons.

 

I also believe that a Legacy STI could be a dual-personality vehicle due to this. Like BMW and their M mode, you could push a button and the center diff goes to a default performance mode, the engine sharpens up from it's economy mode to power mode (hence the best of both worlds) producing far more power and torque than is believed possible in a street car 3.0L N/A model. I wouldn't mind even seeing the suspension tighten up with an M type of mode. Like I said best of both worlds, very streetable and also very sporty, I wouldn't imagine what wouldn't be to love in this formula impressed upon an already great chassis.

 

I also sure wouldn't flinch at being a tester to this first year model. They back their product, I'm more than happy to help prove the technology works.

 

Once you can prove this technology works, I believe the next important steps are hybrid and reducing vehicle body weight as much as possible through new materials and technologies.

[agctr]

Seriously I believe for years mgfs could have tightened up their fuel economies of the engines but a very large degree. Only now have they been forced to move in this direction, hence the move to hybrid technologies. I believe that efficiencies can be found within the current engine configuration BUT will the mgfs spend the money on R&D to find them?

 

If they were to go with the way Seth has described above, I believe they would/could certainly take the market by storm. To have an engine capable of 400HP with the econmical benefit of a hybrid, I ask you, who wouldnt buy.

 

But this comes down to where the mgfs see their market, in hybrid technology or current engines with massive fuel economy. You have to ask the question, if these fuel efficiences have come onboard now, why wern't they brought online a long long time ago......? I think we all know the answer to this one... sadly.

Ada///M.

[andrew.anderson]

']Subaru has a two-pronged strategy for its models, which is illustrated in this slide from May, 2004.

 

 

At that point in time, Subaru had not yet named the B9 Tribeca. The initial Tribeca is intended to compete against the base versions of the BMW X5, Volvo XC90. Prior to the introduction of the Tribeca, every Subaru model line had a high performance version (even the Baja). I believe Subaru intends to add a high performance version of the Tribeca, too, so that it can compete against all versions of the BMW X5, Volvo XC90 and even the Audi Q7. The only powerplant that I can envision which could be available in the immediate future for such a role is the twin-turbo EZ30.

 

I agree, If you are indeed correct and SOA plans on adding a performance version of the Tribecca a TT H6 would be the only current option to up the performance.