Another Tmic vs Fmic thread...

[oODanKNesSOo]

Yes and no. With my current, more aggressive tune when putting the top mount back on it actually requires 1-2psi more to get the same power levels.

Hot air is less dense so for the same g/s seen at the MAF a good FMIC, or good intercooler in general, will show less pressure for the same power.

 

 

Never thought of it like that... but conversely the 20psi with less cool air would put down less power then an equal psi with a more efficient IC and colder air induction.

 

Ultimately a tuner tunes to other numbers then psi I imagine.. letting that be a a result not a goal.

[sigmafour]

You can make anything work. I literally have a FMIC mounted as a TMIC, so it's huge and it's being filled with a 20G and in this setup a FMIC isn't necessary for ME but this is because I use other measures which lower the charge temps and I really wanted stealth.

 

So that said, if I had no countermeasures even with the larger core I would certainly have had to go FMIC to make the power I do.

 

I really think it's personal choice as long as the basic application is correct for the function - (in other words don't bother trying to use an FMIC or a LARGE TMIC with a VF40 or 16G type turbo because it won't be so clever)

[Rhitter]

You can make anything work. I literally have a FMIC mounted as a TMIC, so it's huge and it's being filled with a 20G and in this setup a FMIC isn't necessary for ME but this is because I use other measures which lower the charge temps and I really wanted stealth.

 

Pics?

[BrianEarlSpilner]

And 7s with a fmic... but seriously? Love to see that link. Fastest stock engine doesn't even pull 9s... isn't the record 10.02?

 

It's not a LGT so sorry if I was giving you that impression. I only meant that the GS tmic would support more power than I'm realistically looking to put down.

 

[sigmafour]

Pics?

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/sigmafour-sleeper-205423.html?t=205423

 

There's another one too... when the sleeper wouldn't wake up. That engine in that thread is long gone... KABOOM.

[tocinoman25]

I like tmic because sleeper status. Just the leggy alone is sleeper status. Had I known I was going to move to Las Vegas I would go fmic. Heatsoak is a beach out here sitting at a light. Decisions decisions huh...guess it comes down to personal choice. See if you can find some leggy owners and take a ride in a similar setup with tmic vs fmic to get an idea. Or find some dyno plots off Bren tuning website.

 

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[oODanKNesSOo]

I like tmic because sleeper status. Just the leggy alone is sleeper status. Had I known I was going to move to Las Vegas I would go fmic. Heatsoak is a beach out here sitting at a light. Decisions decisions huh...guess it comes down to personal choice. See if you can find some leggy owners and take a ride in a similar setup with tmic vs fmic to get an idea. Or find some dyno plots off Bren tuning website.

 

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

That's what I think will be the straw that breaks the camels back here in the New Mexico heat...

 

I've seen but one Leggy with any type of mods.. a beautiful specB, and it certainly had a nice Fmic. She was in the scoob shop I visit getting a brand new (as in new to the world/market) big boy turbo, name escapes me ATM... Rotated design, ewg, panty dropper! I felt a little weird asking my mechanic if the owner might want to be my friend. But I did! still no call back tho :/

[boxkita]

I've had a perrin tmic and now a GS tmic and I feel the GS is worth the extra cost in terms of fitment and turbo compatibility.

 

One thing to remember is that fmic's aren't laggy. It's a difference in transient boost response. A turbo will spool the same in either case, but between shifts (or off/on throttle) it can take slightly longer to fill all the piping. I'm with you on the look thing. I do prefer the intercooler peeking out from behind the bumper.

 

Now I have seen that someone is running in the 9's with a GS tmic... given that fact, I know that my intercooler isn't holding me back in terms of performance.

 

In the "winner takes all" thread, is Grimlin's 9 second run post:

Hey guys... Sorry I've been MIA recently from the forums because we've been doing a LOT of traveling and racing lately.

 

So to clear a few things up.

In September we traveled from Texas to Chicago to race at Subaru Nationals where I FINALLY broke into the 9's with a 9.9 @ 144mph pass in the 1/4 mile. Here is the video, I'll post the time slip when I get to work..

 

 

I have been to some local 1/4 mile tracks after that, but I haven't improved much due to limited runs and poor track conditions. (I ran a 10.0@ 145mph the weekend after Subaru Nationals, but the next pass I did that day was on an oiled down track and I almost went into the wall so I decided to pack it up and head home.)

 

As far as what happened to my car this weekend...

I was racing at the WannaGoFast 1/2 mile event (an event I look forward to every year) and sadly on the second pass something failed.

At this time I am 99% sure I know what failed and why, but I'm not posting details until I pull everything apart and I'm 100% sure. I also want to reach out to the manufacture and work with them before I post up.

I will say that I have seen this part fail on other high hp subaru recently so I wasnt too terribly surprised when it happened. (super disappointed but not surprised)

 

But the weekend wasnt a complete waste because our other shop car went 180mph in the 1/2 mile and broke the record for fastest subaru in the 1/2 mile. So that's pretty awesome!

 

-Mary

[oODanKNesSOo]

^^^^^^ Mary's spec B also clearly has a Fmic.... sexy azzz car

[boxkita]

I have 2 wagons. One TMIC. One FMIC. I have data from the same track on relatively same conditions. Both run relatively the same times. At day's end, both IC are cool.

 

You are asking how to keep your nut sack intact after spending money without a plan. I'd suggest stop lying to your spouse or her lawer & the judge will remove them for you.

 

ID1000 & Brembo's are not the key to a "fast" LGT. It's the key to spending lots of money. Injectors work best at ~95% of their rated capacity, not 5%. Brembo's are heavy so prevent heat soak from multiple hard braking events per lap (something you'll never see on the street).

 

If you have to wait "half a breath" for your IC to pressurize, then you'll be always winding up to boost, not on boost. On boost is banging your spouse, winding up to boost is seeing her intact boy toy spending your money.

 

FMIC vs TMIC is dumb. Unless you have some idea of what you're doing and how you plan to drive your car, you'll never be "on boost". You'll be buying more parts because the "car" doesn't work right. If you want to know the difference, search youtube for tmic & fmic videos of cars doing rolling races. Of course the FMIC cars are running "big" turbos so its not a fair comparison.

 

Shop your sound and your desired performance. Then buy your parts. Adding random parts leads to rebuilds.

[oODanKNesSOo]

Whoa.. hope I didn't offend you?

 

I know etone gets lost, but damn, I was joking about the money bit.q I don't lie about anything to my wife... I fully knew I was going to spend more then the car was worth in building it (the way I want) when I purchased it. As did she. The vf52 upgrade however, got more expensive then originally planned- that's my doing though. Buy right buy once! Like you mention duty cycle, I'd rather be at 95% over 105%...

 

Further, I DO have a plan... kind of hinted it through out this thread actually... as well as, oh ya this thread is to assist with that plan! Isn't that what these forums are all about??

 

Td04 replaced with vf52 (already have)

ID1000 injectors (already have)

Top feed conversion kit (looking at Radium Energy as of now)

Dw65c fuel pump

PnP adapters for said injectors

STi fpr (still researching, doesn't seem like a must but may be beneficial?)

RacerX FMIC

And of course, a tune to make everything Happy

Oh, and likely redo fuel lines in the engine bay

 

Anything I missed or have over looked? E85 is on the table but I'm hesitant due to enjoying road trips for fly fishing, golf, and snow boarding. Planning out your e85 stops seems like it could be a pita. Vf52 is likely the fist step as with the injectors... I'd love to reach that coveted 350/350 mark.

 

Love to hear your feedback on what I missed, or should add to the list...

 

I merely mentioned Brembos for safety reasons. Our stock system is actually pretty decent (an upgrade for other models), and even better with aftermarket pads and rotors. But, I will likely upgrade (Brembos not the for sure route either,) before I do any tracking- which I'd love to do eventually. I think often in the car/truck/jeep world people focus on power but often overlook stopping that power. I won't be one of them..

 

I think my half of breath comment was taken too literally... I merely meant that once it's pressurized it's pressurized... filling a smaller tmic or a bigger fmic shouldn't be a huge noticeable delay. Not speaking from experience, just my guess. The trucks I worked on as a tech had MASSIVE intercoolers... and most of the turbos quite small.

 

I agree that adding random parts IS dumb.. However I kindly disagree that tmic vs fmic is "dumb". My research, for Subaru's in particular, has shown an overwhelming disdain for front mounts, and worse; people with zero experience making ridiculously off base claims about why they won't work without a massive turbo.

 

Appreciate your input man... I can tell you have a wealth of experience with these cars, and have enjoyed your build thread

[rougeben83]

I agree with boxkita. It seems you're trying to find answers to a question you have not really formulated yourself.

 

Figure out what your goal is with the car and go from there. This may or may not end up with a list of "sexy" parts, but its a set of parts that have been tried before and proven to work. Use the combos that have worked for many people here - being a "pioneer" means spending more cash.

 

I've done both FMIC and TMIC on a couple of subaru's. Both are good for the application that theyre intended for. There's a lot of overlap on what both are good and bad at. Hell, to all the previous posters saying a TMIC is more "stealth", my old Legacy with blacked-out FMIC looked like a silver camry.

 

Don't overthink what is essentially a large heatsink with pipes attached to it.

[oODanKNesSOo]

I agree with boxkita. It seems you're trying to find answers to a question you have not really formulated yourself.

 

Figure out what your goal is with the car and go from there. This may or may not end up with a list of "sexy" parts, but its a set of parts that have been tried before and proven to work. Use the combos that have worked for many people here - being a "pioneer" means spending more cash.

 

I've done both FMIC and TMIC on a couple of subaru's. Both are good for the application that theyre intended for. There's a lot of overlap on what both are good and bad at. Hell, to all the previous posters saying a TMIC is more "stealth", my old Legacy with blacked-out FMIC looked like a silver camry.

 

Don't overthink what is essentially a large heatsink with pipes attached to it.

 

 

Again, I appreciate the input... was my last post not specific enough about what my current intentions are?

 

The overall sentiments acquired in a Google Search or on here, is that a Fmic is a bad idea unless you have 50#s of boost. I merely questioned that reasoning and have found it to be quite false. Hence the title tmic vs fmic

 

For my upgraded turbo (although not nearly "big") I need an upgrade from my stock bulletproofed tmic. My research, proven results, price, preference on look, ease of working in the engine bay, and climate have lead me to the RacerX Fmic setup.

 

 

After reviewing my list, do you see anything I've left out or should consider?

 

Tgv deletes seems like a good idea "while I'm in there" type of thing.. but from what I've read won't be necessary with this vehicle aling with the top feed conversion.

[boxkita]

It's your money. Wish I had a parts store so I could sell you stuff. I'd be able to finance a year of racing on it....

 

"vaunted" 350/350 on a stock block? Not sure where you got that, but an LGT running that is at the upper limit of DD. Most are running around 300hp.

 

Going to the track is a different thing entirely. Most of the parts you are looking at will not have much impact on the track.

 

You do know the tune is most important part of this? If you are not working with one now (guessing not because of this thread), you need to start.

 

Brakes? The "stock" system is really great. Adding track pads, ss lines, hi-temp fluid is all you need at the track. Brembos needlessly add weight in an area that's overburdened already. If for bling, then own it. If for track, you're wasting your money, imo.

 

Upgrade your radiator especially if putting a FMIC in front of it. When the engine overheats, you'll need a new block.

 

Your suspension needs to updated to match the horsepower. You need a springs vs coilovers thread for that (or you can you all about it in the suspension section).

 

At any rate. good luck. you're gonna need it.

 

unsubscribing...

[LatentWagen]

It's your money. Wish I had a parts store so I could sell you stuff. I'd be able to finance a year of racing on it....

 

"vaunted" 350/350 on a stock block? Not sure where you got that, but an LGT running that is at the upper limit of DD. Most are running around 300hp.

 

Going to the track is a different thing entirely. Most of the parts you are looking at will not have much impact on the track.

 

You do know the tune is most important part of this? If you are not working with one now (guessing not because of this thread), you need to start.

 

Brakes? The "stock" system is really great. Adding track pads, ss lines, hi-temp fluid is all you need at the track. Brembos needlessly add weight in an area that's overburdened already. If for bling, then own it. If for track, you're wasting your money, imo.

 

Upgrade your radiator especially if putting a FMIC in front of it. When the engine overheats, you'll need a new block.

 

Your suspension needs to updated to match the horsepower. You need a springs vs coilovers thread for that (or you can you all about it in the suspension section).

 

At any rate. good luck. you're gonna need it.

 

unsubscribing...

 

Drop some misinfo then unsubscribe

 

1) An STi Brembo setup > LGT sliders at the track, full stop (pun intended). Yes, stock sliders are sufficient for most people. No, they are not better than Brembos.

 

2) Brembo calipers are not heavier than stock LGT sliders. In fact, they're ~5lbs lighter (if my scale is right). The OEM STi rotors are a few pounds heavier because they're bigger.

 

Box, not sure why your posts seem angry, but maybe I'm reading that into them. IMO either help the guy out, or don't... No need to be a curmudgeon.

 

Or I'm gonna start calling you Uncle Boxy

[oODanKNesSOo]

It's your money. Wish I had a parts store so I could sell you stuff. I'd be able to finance a year of racing on it....

 

"vaunted" 350/350 on a stock block? Not sure where you got that, but an LGT running that is at the upper limit of DD. Most are running around 300hp.

 

Going to the track is a different thing entirely. Most of the parts you are looking at will not have much impact on the track.

 

You do know the tune is most important part of this? If you are not working with one now (guessing not because of this thread), you need to start.

 

Brakes? The "stock" system is really great. Adding track pads, ss lines, hi-temp fluid is all you need at the track. Brembos needlessly add weight in an area that's overburdened already. If for bling, then own it. If for track, you're wasting your money, imo.

 

Upgrade your radiator especially if putting a FMIC in front of it. When the engine overheats, you'll need a new block.

 

Your suspension needs to updated to match the horsepower. You need a springs vs coilovers thread for that (or you can you all about it in the suspension section).

 

At any rate. good luck. you're gonna need it.

 

unsubscribing...

That's what guessing gets you... Right? stage 3 (because td04) tuned by Mike at TA. Peaks just above 19psi, but tapers off and doesn't reach that until 3rd gear.

*Mike did a great tune for me with: TurboXs catless up, Cobb catless dp, bulletproof tmic, ebcs, perrin turbo inlet, cobb cai, Cobb v3, td04 turbo, turboXs hybrid 50/50 bov/bpv.. having added mishimotto tb hose, southbend stage 2 clutch+ wrx smfw, kartboy bushings and short throw shifter, company 21 blue T, Grimmspeed exhaust gaskets.. dayum maybe you SHOULD open a store!!!

 

 

Didn't feel the need to pollute an intercoolers thread with coil over and swaybar stuff.. but yes the plans include suspension.

 

Ftr vf52 is as far as I plan on pushing the stock block.. that's sound advice IMHO

 

Not sure how I upset you, but thanks for your contribution

[fahr_side]

What you want to ask yourself, is how much time do you spend in boost on a typical 'fang', and how much do you value being able to beat everyone off the line after several minutes sitting at a stoplight.

Even a good TMIC will heatsoak from a long time spent in boost, especially at over 300whp or so. So, the FMIC car might not be quicker in the first 5 minutes of (say) a blast up a canyon road, but it will start to pull away after that as the TMIC gets heatsoaked. Similarly, the TMIC car is going heatsoak pretty badly sitting in traffic, so when the light goes green the FMIC guy is going to run away from you.

Whether or not those factors are important enough to deal with the trouble of install and the slight hit in transient response is up to you to decide.

 

And because every intercooling discussion needs some basic understanding on how it actually works, please read this.

[dga]

I think you answered you own question in the beginning "...Not only do I not mind the tank out in the open, in fact, I LIKE the look of a front mount... "

[oODanKNesSOo]

What you want to ask yourself, is how much time do you spend in boost on a typical 'fang', and how much do you value being able to beat everyone off the line after several minutes sitting at a stoplight.

Even a good TMIC will heatsoak from a long time spent in boost, especially at over 300whp or so. So, the FMIC car might not be quicker in the first 5 minutes of (say) a blast up a canyon road, but it will start to pull away after that as the TMIC gets heatsoaked. Similarly, the TMIC car is going heatsoak pretty badly sitting in traffic, so when the light goes green the FMIC guy is going to run away from you.

Whether or not those factors are important enough to deal with the trouble of install and the slight hit in transient response is up to you to decide.

 

And because every intercooling discussion needs some basic understanding on how it actually works, please read this.

 

Thanks for the link bro... now I need to learn about spraying my intercooler! Lol, seriously though... with the temps exceeding 100* here being quite regular, if I needed any extra push to choose fmic, I think that's be it. Funny, the posters on here whom run fmic, not a one has complained of the oft posted about: turbo lag with fmic. All dyno sheets show no adverse effects of fmic vs tmic

 

 

I think you answered you own question in the beginning "...Not only do I not mind the tank out in the open, in fact, I LIKE the look of a front mount... "

 

I think you're correct! Preferring the look, the pricetag, and the heatsoak properties... it would've taken some solid evidence that it really hurts performance for me to drop 1K on a quality tmic instead... way to read between the lines tho boss!

[Code]

The difference was more pronounced on the stock VF46 than it is now with the avo380. However, there were a bunch of other variables that changed with the move to stage 3 so it really isn't a fair comparison.

 

http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a481/CodeRed13/car/3F53AEAB-488A-4BD2-BAB6-BED3BDB425B6_zpsz5osmwof.jpg

[oODanKNesSOo]

The difference was more pronounced on the stock VF46 than it is now with the avo380. However, there were a bunch of other variables that changed with the move to stage 3 so it really isn't a fair comparison.

 

http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a481/CodeRed13/car/3F53AEAB-488A-4BD2-BAB6-BED3BDB425B6_zpsz5osmwof.jpg

 

Sexy!!!

 

What were those differences? Good or bad or both?

 

 

Have you ever considered chopping the pillar in the center of your bumper to allow more air flow? I'm debating do so, and adding some mesh like the grill area to help protect it and allow more air flow.

 

Before I get shunned, yes I know it jeopardizes the structural integrity of the bumper... however, I don't plan on fork lifting anything with it, nor using it for a step stool

[sigmafour]

looks like a nicely swain-coated KillerB holy header? That guy is serious... gets more bang for the buck out of that than any TMIC or FMIC difference!

[oODanKNesSOo]

I too saw the sexy header... looks to be equal length? For me... I just can't let that boxer rumble go! Maybe if I heard it in person, I'd be converted. Man, I need more suby friends, er any suby friends (in real life that is) Lmmfao

[fahr_side]

Dyno plots show you boost threshold but do not show lag. These are different but often-confused.

[oODanKNesSOo]

Indeed... folks that have posted on here and those whom actually have a fmic have said the tuner usually can eliminated/ compensate for said lag... something to with the bpv if I recall? I've been a mechanic and long loved working on my own vehicles, aside from programming injectors on trucks I don't have any experience tuning. If there is any "turbo lag", I gather that it's minimal and generally the pros out weigh that lone con.

 

I do wonder if elevation has any effects tho... it's hot af but also pretty much a mile high