BTSSM says I have knock

[xt2005bonbon]

Have you checked for vacuum leaks? I would do that first and report. ECU is adding lots of fuel (probably) due to unmetered air that got into the combustion chamber.

[solidxsnake]

Hi All, stumbled onto this thread, and the other huge one, when researching high learn values and knock in BTSSM. I know its a few months old so appologies for digging up an old one but most people will hopefully understand I've at least done some reading first and not just started a new thread.

 

I'm based in the UK and have a 2004 Legacy GT WR Limited. The knowledge on this software isn't as high on UK forums so thought I'd ask on here where people seem to have a real grasp on this brilliant app.

 

I started my research as I'm getting knock detection. Which after researching this thread and a few others I'm now considering ok as I only get it at 2K RPM and off boost. Never under load. However I have some high Learn Values. IAM seems fine and has never dropped below 1.000.

 

Basically here is my LV.

 

And attached is a couple of quick logs (Unsure if I've got enough fields selected). Car is mapped for UK fuel and the boost is maybe a touch high. Can't find anyone local to test for leaks so going to try MAF first as that seems to have cured a few. Anything else I should be looking at? Does everything appear normal? I'd appreciate any pointers as you lot seem really helpful with other people using this software.

 

Cheers

 

Joe.

 

FYI, you may have better luck in the Tuning forum. BtSSM, while an excellent app, has nothing to do with your perceived problems. Your problems lie either with your car's mechanical condition, or the tune (or some combination, etc.)

[heiche]

Those fuel trims seem to suggest a pre-turbo air leak, such as the inlet hose where it clamps to the turbo, or the other end where it connects to the air cleaner housing. Also check that the housing is clamped together properly.

[Jo_Seph_B]

Have you checked for vacuum leaks? I would do that first and report. ECU is adding lots of fuel (probably) due to unmetered air that got into the combustion chamber.

 

I'll see if I can find somewhere suitable. Smoke or pressure should show if there is anything.

 

FYI, you may have better luck in the Tuning forum. BtSSM, while an excellent app, has nothing to do with your perceived problems. Your problems lie either with your car's mechanical condition, or the tune (or some combination, etc.)

 

I'm not blaming the app, just wanted to understand better what it's telling me. From what I could find out, and the above info I'm aware its chucking in far too much fuel.

 

Doubt its the tune, its been mapped for 8 years since being imported to the UK. I'm leaning towards MAF or leak. I posted in here as it was relevant to the issue, and almost an exact match with the high learn values.

 

Will start another thread if it might be of more use.

 

Those fuel trims seem to suggest a pre-turbo air leak, such as the inlet hose where it clamps to the turbo, or the other end where it connects to the air cleaner housing. Also check that the housing is clamped together properly.

 

Will give it a look this weekend and see if I can see anything visual before taking it somewhere for better testing. Will try the age old spray the area with carb cleaner and listen for an increase in revs.

[xt2005bonbon]

Check out post 164 of this thread. I quoted a simple leak test procedure which usually helps find obvious leaks. Not sure about your turbo layout, but hopefully that will work for you.

[Jo_Seph_B]

Check out post 164 of this thread. I quoted a simple leak test procedure which usually helps find obvious leaks. Not sure about your turbo layout, but hopefully that will work for you.

 

Nice test. Thanks. Should be able to replicate that.

[bigBADbenny]

Basic paint can and an oem spare tyre compressor is what I use at less than 1psi into the inlet mani pipe post afm, oil cap off. Can be used for smoke or bubble checks, heaps of diys online

Off boost/load knock can be "phantom knock" google that one, or rattling avcs cam gears, or loose anything in engine bay inc heatsheilds, zorst pipes etc.

 

Log it and use mega log viewer ms to plot the range in the 3D scatter graphs to get a better idea and track progress with any fixes

[Jo_Seph_B]

Quick update.

I've checked for leaks using a basic test of carb cleaner around the inlet tracks. Figuring with those fuel corrections it'd be quite a leak and it might show something. But nothing was found. I replaced the MAF with a new Denso item and its made the car worse. Fuel trims are even further out, I'm getting knock almost constantly at high revs/on boost and my IAM has dropped (Which it didn't do on the old MAF). Which means its pulling the timing massively. So basically I'm now driving it like a N/A car until I can get to the bottom of the issue.

I'm hoping it might be a case of the MAF is good and I didn't give the car long enough with the battery disconnected for it to forget the learned values and its now running too rich but think I've got other issues and that's me being overly hopeful.

 

So next step is to get a proper leak test done on the inlet and see if it shows anything.

 

I'm no mechanic so I'm reaching my limits so it'll be a case of getting an expert to take a look/empty my wallet. But if I don't a new engine will be an even bigger cost!

 

Latest knock events do not make for nice reading. No more boost for me until I've got this nailed down!

 

KNOCK DETECTED at 2016-12-24 02:28:17 p.m.

AFR: 11.1

Boost (psi): 14.00

Coolant (degC): 84

FKC (deg): -5.98

FLKC (deg): 0.00

Fuel correct (%): -0.0

Fuel learn (%): 14.79

IAM: 0.250

Injector PW (ms): 14.3

Load (g/rev): 1.64

MAF (g/s): 182.48

Misfire cyl 1: 0

Misfire cyl 2: 0

Misfire cyl 3: 0

Misfire cyl 4: 0

O2 rear (V): 0.1

RPM: 6694

Speed (mph): 55.9

Throttle plate (%): 100.0

Timing (deg): 18.0

 

 

KNOCK DETECTED at 2016-12-24 02:28:17 p.m.

AFR: 11.1

Boost (psi): 13.90

Coolant (degC): 86

FKC (deg): -3.87

FLKC (deg): 0.00

Fuel correct (%): -0.0

Fuel learn (%): 14.79

IAM: 0.250

Injector PW (ms): 14.8

Load (g/rev): 1.70

MAF (g/s): 181.73

Misfire cyl 1: 0

Misfire cyl 2: 0

Misfire cyl 3: 0

Misfire cyl 4: 0

O2 rear (V): 0.1

RPM: 6430

Speed (mph): 52.8

Throttle plate (%): 100.0

Timing (deg): 17.5

 

 

KNOCK DETECTED at 2016-12-24 02:28:16 p.m.

AFR: 11.1

Boost (psi): 14.20

Coolant (degC): 87

FKC (deg): -2.11

FLKC (deg): 0.00

Fuel correct (%): -0.0

Fuel learn (%): 14.79

IAM: 0.250

Injector PW (ms): 15.6

Load (g/rev): 1.80

MAF (g/s): 181.73

Misfire cyl 1: 0

Misfire cyl 2: 0

Misfire cyl 3: 0

Misfire cyl 4: 0

O2 rear (V): 0.1

RPM: 6061

Speed (mph): 49.7

Throttle plate (%): 100.0

Timing (deg): 20.5

 

 

KNOCK DETECTED at 2016-12-24 02:28:14 p.m.

AFR: 12.5

Boost (psi): 17.20

Coolant (degC): 89

FKC (deg): -2.11

FLKC (deg): -1.40

Fuel correct (%): -0.0

Fuel learn (%): 9.42

IAM: 1.000

Injector PW (ms): 16.6

Load (g/rev): 1.95

MAF (g/s): 168.97

Misfire cyl 1: 0

Misfire cyl 2: 0

Misfire cyl 3: 0

Misfire cyl 4: 0

O2 rear (V): 0.2

RPM: 5202

Speed (mph): 26.1

Throttle plate (%): 100.0

Timing (deg): 21.0

 

 

KNOCK DETECTED at 2016-12-24 02:23:30 p.m.

AFR: 11.3

Boost (psi): 13.90

Coolant (degC): 86

FKC (deg): -2.11

FLKC (deg): -8.40

Fuel correct (%): -0.0

Fuel learn (%): 14.79

IAM: 1.000

Injector PW (ms): 14.8

Load (g/rev): 1.68

MAF (g/s): 181.73

Misfire cyl 1: 0

Misfire cyl 2: 0

Misfire cyl 3: 0

Misfire cyl 4: 0

O2 rear (V): 0.2

RPM: 6499

Speed (mph): 54.1

Throttle plate (%): 100.0

Timing (deg): 16.5

 

 

KNOCK DETECTED at 2016-12-24 02:23:26 p.m.

AFR: 14.1

Boost (psi): 12.20

Coolant (degC): 87

FKC (deg): -2.11

FLKC (deg): 0.00

Fuel correct (%): -0.0

Fuel learn (%): 12.06

IAM: 1.000

Injector PW (ms): 13.6

Load (g/rev): 1.67

MAF (g/s): 123.79

Misfire cyl 1: 0

Misfire cyl 2: 0

Misfire cyl 3: 0

Misfire cyl 4: 0

O2 rear (V): 0.2

RPM: 4441

Speed (mph): 22.4

Throttle plate (%): 41.2

Timing (deg): 26.5

 

Latest screen grabs and logs attached if anyone knows what they are looking at

 

 

 

 

Oh and Happy 'no boost' Christmas

BtSsm_20161224_152218_knock (1).csv

[xt2005bonbon]

oh wow. yeah stop going into boost. you're running lean. Is your car tuned?

[heiche]

Do you have any error codes? Check engine light?

 

I'd say pre-turbo vac leak somewhere is something to look for again. I've never had good luck with the carb-cleaner/etc spraying method. I've even created a vac leak on purpose and couldn't get the rpms to change using that method. Others swear by it, so I dunno.

 

How is the big hose where it clamps to the turbo? it often develops a tear right at the clamp. Anything disconnected on that hose, like the pcv hose, etc? Is the airbox sealed up properly with the stock air filter element squarely in place?

 

All of this being said, there is a possibility something else might be going on. That's a lot of timing pull in your log file, and it shows that even though it is correcting for AFR, it is actually achieving close to proper AFR and still knocking quite a lot. This being said, gulp, perhaps a compression test and/or leakdown test might be a good idea.

[Jo_Seph_B]

oh wow. yeah stop going into boost. you're running lean. Is your car tuned?

 

Not really. Its been mapped for UK fuel (Its a Jap Import) but its not an aggressive map. 300Bhp as I've been told the bottom ends on the 2L aren't the strongest.

 

From what I can tell (Beginner at this sort of thing) the AFR is about right. Its lean before the corrections, but correcting enough to get a good AFR but still knocking like hell!

 

Do you have any error codes? Check engine light?

 

I'd say pre-turbo vac leak somewhere is something to look for again. I've never had good luck with the carb-cleaner/etc spraying method. I've even created a vac leak on purpose and couldn't get the rpms to change using that method. Others swear by it, so I dunno.

 

How is the big hose where it clamps to the turbo? it often develops a tear right at the clamp. Anything disconnected on that hose, like the pcv hose, etc? Is the airbox sealed up properly with the stock air filter element squarely in place?

 

All of this being said, there is a possibility something else might be going on. That's a lot of timing pull in your log file, and it shows that even though it is correcting for AFR, it is actually achieving close to proper AFR and still knocking quite a lot. This being said, gulp, perhaps a compression test and/or leakdown test might be a good idea.

 

Thanks very much for taking the time to have a look and for the advice. I'll get a proper leak test done. Couldn't see any visual leaks but only a proper test will tell.

 

Oddly I'd only seen 1-2 on boost knock events prior to changing the MAF. Now I get them every time I go on boost. Only did a very quick test run and backed off as soon as I'd got some data. Its odd that the previous MAF didn't generate anywhere near as many knock event and the figures were a little better. The IAM never dropped on the old MAF. Tempted to refit it as the car certainly seemed healthier on it.

 

Compression and leak down will be next on the list if the proper vac test doesn't show anything.

 

I'll report back when I've got a proper test done.

 

Thanks again for the help/pointers. Happy Christmas

[solidxsnake]

Oddly I'd only seen 1-2 on boost knock events prior to changing the MAF. Now I get them every time I go on boost. Only did a very quick test run and backed off as soon as I'd got some data. Its odd that the previous MAF didn't generate anywhere near as many knock event and the figures were a little better. The IAM never dropped on the old MAF. Tempted to refit it as the car certainly seemed healthier on it.

 

It's possible your old MAF was dirty/malfunctioning, and if it was tuned with that sensor, running that tune with your brand new MAF is throwing the calibration completely off. Hence why the car will run fine in closed-loop, but may be running extremely lean in open-loop, since it isn't metering the amount of air ingested correctly. To really check your open-loop AFRs (i.e. in boost), you'll need a wideband sensor. However, if you're not pegging your AFRs at 11.1 with the stock O2 sensor before you get into boost, then you definitely have problems

[Jo_Seph_B]

It's possible your old MAF was dirty/malfunctioning, and if it was tuned with that sensor, running that tune with your brand new MAF is throwing the calibration completely off. Hence why the car will run fine in closed-loop, but may be running extremely lean in open-loop, since it isn't metering the amount of air ingested correctly. To really check your open-loop AFRs (i.e. in boost), you'll need a wideband sensor. However, if you're not pegging your AFRs at 11.1 with the stock O2 sensor before you get into boost, then you definitely have problems

 

Thats a good point, thanks Will drop the mapper a call after Christmas and see if I can get it on a RR. Will make 100% I've got no leaks first though as I need to be certain of that first.