Oh my need of a 6th gear in the Leggy!

[robmarch]

Subaru is positioning the Legacy GT as a sports/luxury sedan/wagon. the players in that field have 6 speed manual transmissions, and no cost automatics, in general, from what I remember. that covers the additional cost of developing the 6 speed, and it encourages buyers to select the transmission they prefer. I'm sure plenty of people scoffed at the 5 speed manual transmission as an unnecessary toy when they first became available right? Soon, people understood that it was a huge benefit to performance and fuel economy, and it became a highly sought after feature, enough that they are now standard.

 

What about the effort and cost for subaru to develop the 5EAT when they had a perfectly good 4EAT? Again, better spread of gear ratios, improved fuel economy, and perceived value to the customer come into play, and they obviously decided the market wanted a better combo than the 2.5T/4EAT combo they had in play with the foresterXT. If this was purely dollars, they would have put the 4EAT in the legacy GT too.

 

Lots of times car makers are forced to respond to changes from other car makers to stay competitive. When Nissan put the 240hp V6 in the Altima, for example, all of the other makers had to scramble to redesign their engines for higher output. subaru had to resign themselves that they needed the turbo 4 in the legacy. Pre WRX, there would be lots of people making your claim that it would cost subaru way too much to do it, but their hand was forced and it would have cost them more not to. The legacy would have the 2.5NA and the 3.0NA, right?

 

When the idea of a turbo legacy started to hit, many people thought the 2.0L WRX engine was not enough for the bigger car, and said subaru would be forced to use the H6 because it would cost too much to develop a new turbo engine. When the rumor of a 2.5L hit, people looked up the cost of the 2.0L engine and compared it to the cost of the 2.5L STi spec engine and said "it's impossible, it would cost them too much to put the 2.5L turbo in the legacy!" We all know how "different" the STi engines are from the Legacy GT engine, right? according to the numbers we had, a 2.5T legacy should have cost MORE than the STi, not less.

 

Guess what, the legacy woudn't even be significantly cheaper (if at all) if they put the 2.0T in it, as subaru is wisely adopting nissan's cross platform engine standardization. The benefits were so great that now the WRX gets the 2.5T. These same economies apply to modifying an existing transmission (perhaps a little detuned) to give the Legacy a 6 speed. They're positioning the WRX as a more premium option also, dragging the interior upscale and targeting the leather buying upgrade market. (and also competing with the A3, etc.) Both the legacy and the impreza's 2.5T models compete with cars with 6 speed manuals available, and if they want to stay at the "sporty" end of the spectrum, this is a perceived value addition they need to consider, let alone helping with the fleet fuel economy issue that will get worse with the addition of the tribeca.

 

I also don't think this cost issue is nearly as significant as people think. Nissan would never have offered optional 6 speeds in the <18k sentra spec V (in addition to the 5 speed) if this was a significant cost increase. They advertised the poo-poo out of the fact that it had a 6 speed, like all of the other "performance" cars in the world. the perception is that sports cars have 6 speeds now, whether they need them or not. When legacy GT buyers are comparing it to the TL, TSX, s40, G35, A4, 330i, altima SER, V6 MT accord, etc., they're going to wonder why all of those cars have 6 speed manuals and the legacy has a 5 speed. these days, they'll also compare highway mileage numbers, and some will base buying decisions on this, even though it saves them pennies a year. the perceived impact of that extra fuel economy gear is hard to estimate, but shouldn't be discounted. People like to feel that they are buying a "modern" car, and how many of us would buy a car with a 4 speed manual in a market dominated by 5 speed manuals?

 

If crash testing an additional model was a problem, I don't think the outback would see both the H6 and 2.5T options. I don't have support for this, but I remember reading an article discussing crash tests on another vehicle and seeing that the us crash testing was satisfied by crashing a vehicle that featured an engine not even available in the US. I think this is a non-issue either way, though.

 

Still, I'm not making set in stone predictions, unlike you, that this will or won't happen, because the data isn't available to realistically determine how much perceived market demand there is, and how much perceived cost there is to add the 6 speed. It just boggles my mind that there is a perceived disadvantage to adding a fuel economy 6th gear, and I'll be interested to see if other luxo/sport sedan boards have buyers complain about the tall 6th on their G35/a4/etc.

[Ifersten]

Melayout you have just illustrated my point. If you read the Bloomberg article much of the increase in sales is attributed to new model promotion and the redesign and improvement of the popular Honda Civic. There is a fine balance between the cost of a new design and features versus the opportunity cost of staying with what you already have. You save BOM and tooling cost by going with what you have, but you also may give up market share; especially since automotive sales are influenced by marketing perception. If this wasn't the case, Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, and Audi to name a few would not exist. The Legacy was designed to compete with other vehicles in its market segment and it needs at least what they have to draw buyers who are brand loyal to other makes and increase their sales numbers. Even if they are selling just 17,000+ units per month, that is still a lot of buying power. Fuji Heavy Industries is not a small company in the absolute sense, how did Honda grow, the answer, by innovation and savy market awareness. I think that Subaru knows that it is behind the curve and is trying to change its image. Otherwise, it would not have introduced the newly designed Legacy to the 2005 model year North American market. Some of the items that you have mentioned in the above thread such auto up down windows and HID's very minimally affect the selling price of the vehicle. The window controls come from the OEM Nissan parts bin and you can buy an HID upgrade on eBay for less than $300 on a single unit basis. Personally I think that Subaru needs to hire some of Audi's ergonomics designers who have a much better sense of what the market needs. The mechanicals of the vehicle are excellent, just not cutting edge. Time will tell.

[robmarch]

Well, if they offered the 6-speed manual, their sales numbers might go up. The reason they don't do it, IMHO, is that the Outback's real competition in the U.S. is (i) midsize SUVs like the Honda Pilot or Toyota Highlander/Forerunner, and (2) midsize wagons like the Passat, Audi A4, Saab and perhaps also Volvo. And to my knowledge, none of those models offers a manual transmission at all, unless you get the bottom-of-the-line engine. You certainly can't get an Accord or Camry with the 6 cylinder engine and a manual transmission. So Subaru probably feels that it does not need a 6-speed manual transmission to compete in the U.S.

 

you can get the accord coupe and sedan with a 6 speed manual and a V6. The A4 and Saab have always been available with the Manual and the performance engines. Volvo has several sport manual models, including the S40 and S60R sedan and wagon.

 

the passat V6 wasn't previously available with the manual to encourage people to buy it's stable mate A4. This may change this year with the redesigned passat.

 

the floating couch doesn't compete on performance, and isn't available with a manual and v6. no offense to camry owners

[jm02130]

Well, RobMarch, you are preaching to the choir. But to reiterate my point, the competition in Europe demands a 6-speed manual transmission for the Legacy. The competition in the USA does not.

 

Car manufacturers perceive America, with its 55 mph speed limits and soccer moms, as the land of the automatic and of the minivan, and the U.S. carmakers have done nothing to dispel that notion. U.S. carbuyers get shortchanged on other technology too, like the turbo diesel. Last year in Italy I rented an Opel turbo diesel wagon with a manual transmission and drove if from the airport north of Milan down to Tuscany and back via the Cinque Terra. About the size of an Imprezza wagon, it was fast, handled like a dream and easily cruised all day on the autostrada at 160 kph. And got great mileage on cheaper fuel to boot. Too bad you can't buy one of those here.

 

If they could sell it for less than 40k, a turbodiesel Outback with a 6-speed manual would absolutely destroy VW and Audi, not to mention the other Japanese makers.

[robmarch]

Well, RobMarch, you are preaching to the choir. But to reiterate my point, the competition in Europe demands a 6-speed manual transmission for the Legacy. The competition in the USA does not.

 

certainly europe is demanding it more, but as all of the other models are available in the US with 6 speed manuals, it becomes more of a perceived technology weakness, rather than something the actual customers are asking for. I mean, nearly every car I've ever seen anyone compare the Legacy GT to is available with a 6 speed manual in some configuration. That's pretty telling.

[andrew.anderson]

certainly europe is demanding it more, ....

 

Few people here want a AT. Alot of cars are not even offered with anything but Manual.

[praedet]

But, in real world driving conditions, these 6MTs (comparable size and engine output) are not showing MPG increases...

 

That RX-8 sure does compete on gas mileage with its 6MT!!!!!

 

If your are an enthusiast, the MPG doesn't matter, you want the transmission that best mates to the engine, AND you will understand that extra cogs are for peaky engines. The H-6 spec-B gets the extra cog due to a peaky engine, the 2.0T Spec-B does not. Like it or not, the boost comes on sooner in the Legacy vs. the STi. But, the STi holds the boost longer. To stay in boost on the STi you need the extra gears. You don't with the Legacy. Again, there is not proof that the Legacy will need less fuel with a 6MT!

 

Ted

[IwannaSportSedan]

which is interesting, seeing as American cars come with Automatics, and many do not have a Manual trans option...

 

like the Dodge charger. A big car, but performance oriented. No Manual Trans offered, not even on the 400+ hp ultra-muscle SRT8.

 

I wish manual trans were MORE common in the US. Along with AWD or RWD.

[Beanboy]

Volvo performance models offer 6-speed manuals...and they offer it in their wagons to boot!

[robmarch]

But, in real world driving conditions, these 6MTs (comparable size and engine output) are not showing MPG increases...

 

Again, there is not proof that the Legacy will need less fuel with a 6MT!

 

Ted

 

when you shorten all of the gears and keep the top gear the same, you won't get better mileage. the RX8 still revs pretty high in top gear.

 

Are you claiming that reducing the top gear revs at a given speed won't decrease fuel consumption?

 

If your are an enthusiast, the MPG doesn't matter, you want the transmission that best mates to the engine, AND you will understand that extra cogs are for peaky engines.

 

would you still have bought your Legacy GT with a 10mpg highway rating? how about a 5mpg highway rating?

 

saying MPG doesn't matter is like saying price doesn't matter.

[melayout]

I'll get to robmarch's 2 posts later but I have to reply to this post.

 

Volvo performance models offer 6-speed manuals...and they offer it in their wagons to boot!

 

Beanboy,

 

Well BMW offers the 6-speed in their M-lineup too.

 

As for Volvo, here are the specs to prove my point even more:

 

- The V50 (2.5L 5-Cyl Turbo) Wagon AWD gets better mileage with the Automatic 5-speed than the Manual 6-speed. 28/20 vs 26/19 (Highway/city)

 

- The V50 (2.5L 5-Cyl Turbo) Wagon gets much better mileage with FWD compared to AWD. (5AT=31/22,6MT=32/22) vs (5AT=28/20,6MT=26/19)

 

So :

 

- Directly compared to Volvo's 2.5L 5-cyl engine/turbo combo, the Subaru engine 2.5L 4-cyl engine/turbo combo makes more power with less cylinders and gets the same gas mileage as Volvo's manual transmission and a little bit less in the highway with the automatic transmission 25 vs 28.

 

- The Volvo FWD and AWD V50 wagon trims are an example of how much an AWD system affects gas mileage more so than a 6-speed gearbox would, which even in Volvo's case gets worse gas mileage than the 5-speed automatic.

[praedet]

Actually, yeah, I am saying that reduction of rpm does not directly correlate to a reduction in gas mileage at a given speed. If the engine is in a very inefficient region, then the amount of fuel necessary to make the needed torque could be greater than at a higher rpm. It happens with turbines and every other power source. Engines have the maximum headroom at the rpm where they operate most efficiently. If it takes 50 ft*lb to cruise, and you can create 50 ft*lb at 100% throttle at 1K rpm, you are going to run very rich. At 3K rpm you can create that 50 ft*lb with 33% throttle and be able to run leaner…

 

Again, the goal is to run at the most efficient combination of gearing and engine. With its better gearing why doesn’t your STi get better gas mileage than the Legacy. Why does my friend’s TL with his 6MT get poorer gas mileage at anywhere from 60 to 75 mph? (Haven’t tried it with him above that…) Give real world example with comparable vehicles where the 6MT is better for gas mileage and acceleration…

 

Ted

[melayout]

Seriously, research all the other car manufacturers that offer a turbo-charged 4 or 5 cylinder engine with a 6 speed manual transmission and Full-Time Wheel Drive on vehicles comparable to the Legacy and if it beats the LGT's 25/19 by at least 3 MPG on the highway and 1-2MPG in the city then fuel economy may be considered a worthwhile argument for getting a 6-speed on the LGT.

 

Edit: Other than that, the 6-speed IMHO is only worthwhile for a closer ratio in the first 5 forward gears, a couple of hundred RPMs reduction on highway cruising to reduce engine noise levels and just saying I have a 6-speed.

[praedet]

Other than that, the 6-speed IMHO is only worthwhile for... just saying I have a 6-speed.

But, but my 6MT is better than your 5MT!!!!!

[trabbic]

+1 on the 6th gear...

 

Subaru's web-page lists competitive cars as, Passat, Saab 9-3, BMW 3, Audi A4, to that I would add, Mazda 6, Maxima or Altima, TSX or TL, Cady CTS, Volvo S40.

 

All except the 6 offer 6 speeds. IF Subaru were to "tack on" a 6th gear to our transmissions, without changing any other ratios, it would have transmission ratios similar to a Maxima 3.5 SE. (.63 sixth, 4.13 final drive.)

 

According to my trusty Car Test Program the RPM differences between our current 5th gear and an imaginary 6th with a .60 ratio would be (est.):

 

60 mph: 2450 vs. 2000

65 mph: 2660 vs. 2190

70 mph: 2870 vs. 2350

75 mph: 3080 vs. 2500

80 mph: 3280 vs. 2630

90 mph: 3700 vs. 3000

100 mph: 4070 vs. 3300

 

.6 may be a little too aggressive, but I feel there is still plenty of power above 2000 to pull this car along nicely without it loosing speed on up hills or against wind. The power now in 5th is enough to get in to trouble QUICKLY, 6th would probably bring the car normal.

 

Also according to a friend of mine that used to be an engineer at Honda expect about a 7 - 9% increase in performance (ie fuel economy or accel.) adding an extra gear. It is a sliding scale so if you want just performance you can get a 7% improvement, and 0 better gas or 7% gas and 0 accel. If you do a little research you will find that 7% number to be pretty accurate. i.e. a Miata with a 6 speed will be about .5 faster to 60 and to the 1/4 mile, about a 6% improvement, but the 5 and 6 get the same gas ratings.

[Legacy_Fan]

This car definately needs an additional 6 speed overdrive gear. You would probably get 4-6 mpg better mileage cruising at 75-80. This car certainly has the low end torque to handle it easily.

 

LETS GET WITH IT SUBARU!!!

[melayout]

Trabbic, so lets says we get a 7% better gas and that's only for highway, so 7% of 25MPG is about a 1.75MPG increase. If you drove a full tank till it was bone dry, you'll get 28 more miles, still the fuel economy ain't cutting it.

 

Legacy_Fan, how did you arrive at that 4-6MPG better mileage estimate?

[robmarch]

Actually, yeah, I am saying that reduction of rpm does not directly correlate to a reduction in gas mileage at a given speed. If the engine is in a very inefficient region, then the amount of fuel necessary to make the needed torque could be greater than at a higher rpm. It happens with turbines and every other power source. Engines have the maximum headroom at the rpm where they operate most efficiently. If it takes 50 ft*lb to cruise, and you can create 50 ft*lb at 100% throttle at 1K rpm, you are going to run very rich. At 3K rpm you can create that 50 ft*lb with 33% throttle and be able to run leaner…

 

Again, the goal is to run at the most efficient combination of gearing and engine. With its better gearing why doesn’t your STi get better gas mileage than the Legacy. Why does my friend’s TL with his 6MT get poorer gas mileage at anywhere from 60 to 75 mph? (Haven’t tried it with him above that…) Give real world example with comparable vehicles where the 6MT is better for gas mileage and acceleration…

 

Ted

 

with modern ecu's, the biggest factor on turbo engines is boost. we need someone on here to take a long trip and drive at 55mph on cruise control in 5th for a tank and 55mph on cruise control in 4th for a tank and figure out which one gets better mileage. According to you guys, there's no way to predict, right?

[robmarch]

Seriously, research all the other car manufacturers that offer a turbo-charged 4 or 5 cylinder engine with a 6 speed manual transmission and Full-Time Wheel Drive on vehicles comparable to the Legacy and if it beats the LGT's 25/19 by at least 3 MPG on the highway and 1-2MPG in the city then fuel economy may be considered a worthwhile argument for getting a 6-speed on the LGT.

 

Edit: Other than that, the 6-speed IMHO is only worthwhile for a closer ratio in the first 5 forward gears, a couple of hundred RPMs reduction on highway cruising to reduce engine noise levels and just saying I have a 6-speed.

 

this doesn't address the question at all without referencing gear ratios and final drive. it doesnt' matter how many gears, just the top gear drive ratio. and the people on here who are asking for a 6th gear are asking to keep the first 5 the same for the better acceleration they like and add another overdrive, rather than just reducing the final drive to reduce the top gear rpms at speed.

 

we seem to not be converging on this facet of the argument somehow.

[robmarch]

Again, the goal is to run at the most efficient combination of gearing and engine. With its better gearing why doesn’t your STi get better gas mileage than the Legacy. Why does my friend’s TL with his 6MT get poorer gas mileage at anywhere from 60 to 75 mph? (Haven’t tried it with him above that…) Give real world example with comparable vehicles where the 6MT is better for gas mileage and acceleration…

 

Ted

 

sorry, missed this part. what do you guys get for highway mileage on your LGT's? I get 24-25 highway in the STi. there can be lots of differences between the two, and even more differences between the LGT and the TL, being a NA V6. The question is whether the cars get better gas mileage in taller gears? Are you guys taking the outside diameters of the tires into account?

 

do the experiment. Instead of 80mph, run at 55(or someone here can calculate the exact mph) to make the revs approximately the same as going from 6th to 5th in the hypothetical transmission we're discussing at 80mph. drive in 4th for a long run and track your mileage, then drive in 5th and track your mileage. I can tell you that if adding a 5th gear didn't improve gas mileage, nobody would have ever done it years ago, since 4th gear takes most cars to their electronic limiter.

[franklin]

this doesn't address the question at all without referencing gear ratios and final drive. it doesnt' matter how many gears, just the top gear drive ratio. and the people on here who are asking for a 6th gear are asking to keep the first 5 the same for the better acceleration they like and add another overdrive, rather than just reducing the final drive to reduce the top gear rpms at speed.

 

we seem to not be converging on this facet of the argument somehow.

+1

[jm02130]

And since when did fuel economy become the only issue in connection with adding an overdrive 6th gear? The other issues that come immediately to mind are wear on the engine and noise.

[Legacy_Fan]

Legacy_Fan, how did you arrive at that 4-6MPG better mileage estimate?

 

I drove at 55 with a 20mph headwind and compared it to going 75 with no wind. Basically, it gets the rpm out of the turbo range.

 

I just got back from germany, and I would get 50mpg(yes that's miles) at 100 mph in a BMW. It had a very tall 6th gear. It's all in the gearing and the Legacy GT has tons of low end torque, so let take adantage of it.

 

LET'S GET WITH IT SUBARU!!!

[trabbic]

Trabbic, so lets says we get a 7% better gas and that's only for highway, so 7% of 25MPG is about a 1.75MPG increase. If you drove a full tank till it was bone dry, you'll get 28 more miles, still the fuel economy ain't cutting it.

 

Legacy_Fan, how did you arrive at that 4-6MPG better mileage estimate?

 

Yup, about 2-3 max. I'll take 30 vs. 27 though (I get 27 hwy;) ). Also, take into consideration that the throttle is much more sensitive at 3000+ rpm in 5th than it would be in 6th at 2500, and your realized mpg goes up. Drive at 60 in 4th and try to keep the mpg at the best cruise and then put it into 5th and to the same, it will be much easier to cruise and maintain a better mpg in 5th than 4th.

 

7% is not much, but for a manufacturer if they can put up numbers that are improved by 7% or more, then that looks good. That is why every major manufacturer is increasing gears in their transmissions, and will continue to do so until the costs outweigh the benefits. (it will end about 7-8, or CVT's).

 

Melayout, right now you do not feel that the increased costs would outweigh the benefits, and Subaru agrees with you. But EVERY competitor that offers a manual transmission in this class disagrees with you and Subaru, it is just a matter of time.

 

(BTW, BMW is just now offering 6 speeds on their new 2006 3 series (sedans), 2005 were 5 speeds (and 2006 coupes). And Mazda is only offering a 6 speed on the Mazdaspeed 6 (the closest competitor to the Leg that I can think of.)

 

EDIT: WAIT, I just realized that Melayout is driving an AUTOMATIC... Just kidding . Do me a favor drive around in 4th for a week and report back on the decrease in drivability and fuel mileage. Would you rather have the 4-speed from the previous generations??

[scatman]

Melayout, my three previous cars with 6m speeds were:

2003 350z...more HP very similar gas milage.

2000 Z28.... more HP, heavier, actualy had better gas milage on highway.

1995 prelude...Now that I think about I'm not so sure if that car had a 6m...ooops.

 

My point is, any performance car manufactured in the past few years has a 6m.

 

 

The Mustang GT has a 5m tranny which was a real deturant for me. If I was gonna buy another sports coupe/car it was gonna have a 6m. I bought the suby for more practical reasons.