Xenonk Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 i would love a 6th gear. not a lower 1st, 2nd, 3rd ,4th, 5th. but just an extra 6th gear to go into so i can cruise on the highway at 70 at less then 3k Yea, that 6th gear is going to be like a ratio of 0.500 or something like that.. Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melayout Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 i would love a 6th gear. not a lower 1st, 2nd, 3rd ,4th, 5th. but just an extra 6th gear to go into so i can cruise on the highway at 70 at less then 3k meier - According to the RPM calculator you should be able to cruise @ 70MPH at 2900RPMs. I keed I keeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmarch Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 I am getting anywhere from 25 to 27 mpg for long trips, 24 mpg daily, and 6.3 mpg on the track, and 2.5 mpg at the autox based on the computer's readout.. what more do we want out of a sports sedan? 50 mpg? Just stop lead-footing the throttle and you'll get a lot more mpg out of it. Fourth gear is your 1:1 drive basically that you are looking for your 5th.. that's not going to help.. 5th gear is already considered your "super" over drive.. so if you are asking for a TALL 6th gear (of which I mentioned earlier of being 0.500) then you'll be boggin the car down to no end... The easier thing to do is request for a taller final driver instead and sacrifice the acceleration for top speed so that you can get more mph and less rpms while doing so. what's the problem with adding a gear that would put 75-80 mph at 2500 rpm? gas mileage would increase, those of you topping out 5th can just keep redlining 5th if it doesnt' make sense to shift, and the world goes on. highway passing would require a shift to 4th or 5th for brisk passes, which is no problem, and nothing else changes. those who don't want to do that can drive the car like a 5 speed and change nothing. as you said, a taller final drive sacrifices acceleration for top speed, but there's no reason to do it when you can just add a gear. I don't think it would be unreasonable to ask for 30mpg highway mileage on this type of car. The real reason is that the cost of the 6MT is higher than the 5MT, and there's not enough perceived market demand to make the move (or even keep the manual in the wagon). Also, I guess their fleet fuel economy numbers are good enough that they're not concerned, or we'd see higher final drives on the 2.5i models of Legacy and Impreza. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Th3Franz Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 Not a big deal.. Less weight without a sixth gear and larger gearbox. -Franz The end of a Legacy http://www.youtube.com/th3franz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jm02130 Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 i would love a 6th gear. not a lower 1st, 2nd, 3rd ,4th, 5th. but just an extra 6th gear to go into so i can cruise on the highway at 70 at less then 3k Exactly. The 5 gears on the existing 5 speed manual are fine. The ratios seem just about right IMHO. But the car needs overdrive. 3,000 rpm is too many revs for 70 mph. The old Austin Healy MK3000 used to have an electric overdrive. When you were in 4th you just flipped a toggle switch on the dash and the rpms dropped by about 500. I believe the TR-6 had a similar system. If Subaru doesn't want to add a 6th gear with a lower ratio, then I'll settle for one of those lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melayout Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 what's the problem with adding a gear that would put 75-80 mph at 2500 rpm? gas mileage would increase, those of you topping out 5th can just keep redlining 5th if it doesnt' make sense to shift, and the world goes on. highway passing would require a shift to 4th or 5th for brisk passes, which is no problem, and nothing else changes. those who don't want to do that can drive the car like a 5 speed and change nothing. as you said, a taller final drive sacrifices acceleration for top speed, but there's no reason to do it when you can just add a gear. I don't think it would be unreasonable to ask for 30mpg highway mileage on this type of car. The real reason is that the cost of the 6MT is higher than the 5MT, and there's not enough perceived market demand to make the move (or even keep the manual in the wagon). Also, I guess their fleet fuel economy numbers are good enough that they're not concerned, or we'd see higher final drives on the 2.5i models of Legacy and Impreza. Get a 5EAT, I hit 27+MPG on the highway with cruise. I keed I keeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmarch Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 Get a 5EAT, I hit 27+MPG on the highway with cruise. that's cool. I just don't understand the argument against adding a 6th fuel economy gear, other than from a cost or time of development perspective. I'd love a 7th fuel economy gear in the STi at least the STi has an excuse, because the gear ratios were selected for the 2.0L engine that revs higher. With the torquier 2.5L, they just don't make sense. I'll have to drive a 5EAT LGT, I've wondered how the auto deals with the lag, and how the feel compares to, say, a V6 Altima auto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melayout Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 - A 6MT in the LGT will dilute the value of the WRX STi - The ROI on the cost of research and development plus changes to the production line is low, especially that they will likely have to offer both the 5MT and 6MT on the LGT. - To achieve any kind of noticeable increase in fuel mileage, the 6th gear will affect drivability and you'll have customers complaining about it, more so than the 5MT. I keed I keeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f1anatic Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 What revs do you get on the highway at 70 mph with the Econo mode on the Accessport ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdw Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 The reason for a 5sp in the LGT is really simple, cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmarch Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 - A 6MT in the LGT will dilute the value of the WRX STi I don't think so. the STi and LGT are extremely different cars, as much as people like to compare them. some people might be looking for a stronger tranny, of course, but extremely few people are sold on the LGT but decide to buy the STi because it has the 6 speed. - The ROI on the cost of research and development plus changes to the production line is low, especially that they will likely have to offer both the 5MT and 6MT on the LGT. I don't think they'd have to offer both, they could just offer the 6 speed (like the G35, TL, etc) and go "upscale". 6 speeds is the new 5 speeds, right? Plus, they don't have to do any R&D if they use the design they have and tweak the final drive accordingly. Even changing the internal ratios wouldn't be that big of a deal. (although they totally whiffed on this for the USDM STi, and handcuffed their magazine times by requiring extra shifts in the 0-60 and quarter mile tests) - To achieve any kind of noticeable increase in fuel mileage, the 6th gear will affect drivability and you'll have customers complaining about it, more so than the 5MT. this is the part of the argument I just plain don't understand. How is the car any less drivable with an extra fuel economy gear? it's a manual, people. who expects to just throw the car in top gear and leave it? people who want the car to be fast at all speeds when they stomp the pedal should be driving automatics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franklin Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 ________ Last gear ratio , Final drive ratio => Engine speed @ 80MPH with 215/45/17(24.6 inches diameter) LGT 5MT: ____0.738_________4.11___=> 3314 RPMs WRX 5MT: ___0.738_________3.90 __=> 3145 RPMs WRX STi 6MT: _0.756_______ 3.90___=> 3222 RPMs Hypothetical LGT 6MT: 0.756_ 4.11___=> 3395 RPMs If the math is not wrong, the difference in RPMs with the 6MT is trivial, so please stop whining like a bunch of babies. Used http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html for tire diameter calculation Used http://www.csgnetwork.com/multirpmcalc.html for engine speed calculation Used http://Keep media.subaru.com/ for gear and drive info How about this keep 1st thru 5th as is and add a 0.55 6th. If you dont want to use it stay in 5th. Everyone wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melayout Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 robmarch, First, the LGT is not supposed to be as aggresive as the STi and therefore the 5-speed is enough. Second, the TL or G35 are FWD and RWD, which have less drivetrain loss and will give you better mileage independant of the transmission. Third, the cost difference between a 5-speed and 6-speed(even if for just better gas mileage) is around $2000-3000, making it more expensive than the 5EAT and now the LGT's base model price has increased by at least 2 grand. Now for some people a $2000-3000 diff is enough to strike it out from their potential buy list. Subaru is doing the right thing by keeping the manual transmission trim less expensive than the automatic. franklin - Can you tell me of any passenger car currently manufactured that have such a low final gear ratio? Edit: Forgot to add, it will probably take years to recoup the extra price of the 6MT thru gas expense savings. I keed I keeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franklin Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 what's the problem with adding a gear that would put 75-80 mph at 2500 rpm? gas mileage would increase, those of you topping out 5th can just keep redlining 5th if it doesnt' make sense to shift, and the world goes on. highway passing would require a shift to 4th or 5th for brisk passes, which is no problem, and nothing else changes. those who don't want to do that can drive the car like a 5 speed and change nothing. as you said, a taller final drive sacrifices acceleration for top speed, but there's no reason to do it when you can just add a gear. I don't think it would be unreasonable to ask for 30mpg highway mileage on this type of car. The real reason is that the cost of the 6MT is higher than the 5MT, and there's not enough perceived market demand to make the move (or even keep the manual in the wagon). Also, I guess their fleet fuel economy numbers are good enough that they're not concerned, or we'd see higher final drives on the 2.5i models of Legacy and Impreza. Thank you Robmarch. You and me are in total agreement. Do this and we can all get what we want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franklin Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 robmarch, First, the LGT is not supposed to be as aggresive as the STi and therefore the 5-speed is enough. Second, the TL or G35 are FWD and RWD, which have less drivetrain loss and will give you better mileage independant of the transmission. Third, the cost difference between a 5-speed and 6-speed(even if for just better gas mileage) is around $2000-3000, making it more expensive than the 5EAT and now the LGT's base model price has increased by at least 2 grand. Now for some people a $2000-3000 diff is enough to strike it out from their potential buy list. Subaru is doing the right thing by keeping the manual transmission trim less expensive than the automatic. franklin - Can you tell me of any passenger car currently manufactured that have such a low final gear ratio? Edit: Forgot to add, it will probably take years to recoup the extra price of the 6MT thru gas expense savings. Passenger cars with 6th gear of 0.55 range: The one I sold to buy my LGT "94-03 Camaro/ Firebird. My "96 Z28 had a .50 6th gave me 25 mpg at 80mph. The Corvettes use similar gearing. I noticed that the "06 Infinity Is350 has a 6 speed manual and its sixth is in the 0.55 range. Likely there are others. This car has the torque to do this. If you want to pass-downshift. Do you really think adding a 6th gear would cost $2000 to 3000 dollars? Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 A lot of cars like the Saab have 2 overdrive gears which required downshifting from 5th to 3rd to get decent acceleration. I believe Camaro's used to do the same with the 6 speed. The convertible also had a really low speed governor that allowed you to hit top speed in 4, 5, and 6 gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 What revs do you get on the highway at 70 mph with the Econo mode on the Accessport ? it's the same as stock.. rpm and speed traveled are all based on the tranny, not the motor.. the tranny is the translator for rpms from the engine to the tires. The AP only adds power to the engine, it does not add speed. Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishingbuk Posted September 27, 2005 Author Share Posted September 27, 2005 In my Saab I was doing 100mph at 3500rpm. Got close to 30MPG average also. Not too shabby although it was a torque steer nightmare with it's front wheel drive. I do miss the gas mileage that car got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmarch Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 robmarch, First, the LGT is not supposed to be as aggresive as the STi and therefore the 5-speed is enough. fantastic, then why are the revs so high in 5th? And why are the G35 and TL sporting 6 speeds (as well as every other ~30k sedan with a manual transmission)? Second, the TL or G35 are FWD and RWD, which have less drivetrain loss and will give you better mileage independant of the transmission. which would be a reason to keep them 5 speeds and make the legacy a 6 speed, not the other way around. Third, the cost difference between a 5-speed and 6-speed(even if for just better gas mileage) is around $2000-3000, making it more expensive than the 5EAT and now the LGT's base model price has increased by at least 2 grand. Now for some people a $2000-3000 diff is enough to strike it out from their potential buy list. Subaru is doing the right thing by keeping the manual transmission trim less expensive than the automatic. it's probably more like $400, or you wouldn't see 6 speeds in the RSX-s, sentra and altima spec V's, etc. and you definitely wouldn't see a 6 speed in an accord if it was 2-3k more, period, with the margins they run on those cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. CentralOhioSubarus Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 Exactly....the STi 6 Speed weights a ton! Not a big deal.. Less weight without a sixth gear and larger gearbox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukonart Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 Wow. . . good arguements for and against. Still going to drop an STi 6-speed in my car next spring . . . I really miss that from my last car. The only thing I can add to this entire thread is the following: Performance Economy Reliability PICK TWO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melayout Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 fantastic, then why are the revs so high in 5th? And why are the G35 and TL sporting 6 speeds (as well as every other ~30k sedan with a manual transmission)? Even if you dropped in the 6MT, the revs are going to drop less than 200RPMs and the gas mileage increase you think you can get is not going to happen. which would be a reason to keep them 5 speeds and make the legacy a 6 speed, not the other way around. Even if you dropped in the 6MT, the revs are going to drop less than 200RPMs and the gas mileage increase you think you can get is not going to happen. it's probably more like $400, or you wouldn't see 6 speeds in the RSX-s, sentra and altima spec V's, etc. and you definitely wouldn't see a 6 speed in an accord if it was 2-3k more, period, with the margins they run on those cars. From http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=665334, is $3111 for the 5MT and $4994 for the 6MT , so about $1800 or at least $1500 I would say in actual manufacturing costs. How many cars does Honda/Acura and Nissan/Infiniti sell a year vs Subaru?!!!!!!! Any financial analyst, CEO or CFO would tell you, the initial investment is too high and the return is not guaranteed especially that consumers are not demanding the 6MT. Bad ROI period. I keed I keeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
93formula Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 Heres an idea for everyone, put in the WRX diffs which i think are 3.90s or the new ones 3.70s. That will drop your revs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melayout Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 Passenger cars with 6th gear of 0.55 range: The one I sold to buy my LGT "94-03 Camaro/ Firebird. My "96 Z28 had a .50 6th gave me 25 mpg at 80mph. The Corvettes use similar gearing. I noticed that the "06 Infinity Is350 has a 6 speed manual and its sixth is in the 0.55 range. Likely there are others. This car has the torque to do this. If you want to pass-downshift. Do you really think adding a 6th gear would cost $2000 to 3000 dollars? Why? Ok with a .50 6th in the Z28 which is more aerodynamic, naturally aspirated and RWD and you're getting 25MPG only. I would've expected at least 30MPG. Look up the price of the 5MT and 6MT. Edit: It's not lighter, about the same at 3400LBs. I keed I keeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melayout Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 Heres an idea for everyone, put in the WRX diffs which i think are 3.90s or the new ones 3.70s. That will drop your revs Lets do teh math, 5th gear .738 with 3.90 final drive = 3145 RPMs @ 80MPH 5th gear .738 with 3.70 final drive = 2984 RPMs @ 80MPH You need something lower than 2500RPM to see any significant gains in gas mileage. I keed I keeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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