Penguin Posted October 16, 2015 Author Share Posted October 16, 2015 Well in the US market there's not much to be had for a powerful mid to full size sport sedan under 50K that has any power. We basically have two choices in that segment, the Dodge Charger and the SS/Comodore. I test drove both, and even in SRT form the Dodge just doesn't handle as well, there is no masking the 400 lbs of extra weight and the outward visibility doesn't inspire confidence either. So although the Charger equipped with the 6.4L HEMI is quite fast on an open road, it is not as user friendly trying to exploit that performance on tighter or twisty roads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picky1 Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Smoking tire just did another test ride of the 2015 SS with a manual gearbox and magnetic ride suspension: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadvw Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Well in the US market there's not much to be had for a powerful mid to full size sport sedan under 50K that has any power. We basically have two choices in that segment, the Dodge Charger and the SS/Comodore. I test drove both, and even in SRT form the Dodge just doesn't handle as well, there is no masking the 400 lbs of extra weight and the outward visibility doesn't inspire confidence either. So although the Charger equipped with the 6.4L HEMI is quite fast on an open road, it is not as user friendly trying to exploit that performance on tighter or twisty roads. Too bad. Sat in Taurus (looking for SHO, none available), SS and Charger 392 today with the family (wife, 6/8 year old daughters). SS had the best, most comfortable interior. We all agreed. Unfortunately, no folding rear seats? WHAT? In 2015?? Almost a total deal breaker, going from a wagon to a ski-hole.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted November 23, 2015 Author Share Posted November 23, 2015 For us the lack of folding rear seats with only a pass through (at least it's a large pass through) has been a non issue. The trunk is plenty large for our use, and anything larger than the trunk will hold is a prime job for the truck. I realize that I'm not in the average consumer's position, we have two drivers and three vehicles at home. Two of them go in the snow, one of them can also haul a ton of shit or tow 5 tons of shit. So having the third one around just for the sake of being fun to drive, and a damn good road car is acceptable. Did you drive the car? You might forgive the seats not folding down once you experience the very good chassis and strong engine. Another option, assuming your LGT wagon is paid for and in good shape: keep it and add another vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadvw Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Did not drive - will have to, since best interior. Wagon maybe DOA, hence the shopping. May have to look at volvo or bmw, or maybe fx50.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoplightAssassin Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 There's no fold down rear seats because Holden put significant chassis bracing in that area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted November 23, 2015 Author Share Posted November 23, 2015 Ouch. Sorry to hear about the wagon. EJ25's just don't seem to hold up well. I can't speak for the Volvo, or the FX50 but I used to sell BMW's before embarking on a career being a scumbag railroad engineer. I like BMW's, but being realistic you pay a lot of money to get one optioned correctly, and they are not a long term car unless you have deep pockets. As much as I love them, there is no way that I would own a BMW past the 4 year 50K mile warranty. Nor would I consider one if I lived more than 100 miles from the nearest dealer. I'm not sure what your budget is, but dollar for dollar the SS is going to have more equipment, more power, more room, and more performance than a comparably priced BMW. While there are some things I wish Holden had done differently with the Commodore/SS I have few complaints. Yes split fold down seats would be nice in back, and the new 8 speed auto GM makes would be nice too, or the new LT1 with direct injection and DOD. On the other hand, the number of times I have used split folding rear seats on a 4 door when equipped can be counted on one hand. The 6L80E has a well earned reputation for being very very tough, and with V8 grunt on hand it barely ever needs to shift anyway you can pretty much drive it in 2nd and 5th gear if you want to. Plus the LS3 is the gold standard in compact, affordable, reliable, performance engines with a huge well developed aftermarket and no high pressure fuel pumps, or added DOD engine parts to fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadvw Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Thanks for the info and sympathy. In this case, it may have been mechanic incompetence (or a big coincidence). But, putting $3k into an 11-year-old car with 120k on it (BB says value is $2.7K or so), only to have the 5EAT or head gasket/ring landing/etc fail in the next year or two is what I'm trying to evaluate. Plus, there were already various nagging issues that I was wondering about fixing. So, if I save the $3k, part it out for $2-3k (I have several BNIB parts worth $1k), that's like trading it in for $6k. Could I sell it for more than that? Doubtful.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadvw Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 A couple of questions, if you don't mind my threadjack: -what's the shifting like (looking at auto)? How fast does it respond to the paddles? I've read good things about the auto in the new Vette... -what kind of price have people been paying out-the-door? Bay Area doesn't seem like a great place to buy a car (price-wise). Plus, not many in stock around here.. The one I sat in was "too hot red" or something, aka "ticket me red". I'm looking at something in silver/white or similar.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted November 23, 2015 Author Share Posted November 23, 2015 Well the auto with the paddles isn't dual clutch fast, but it is a lot faster and more responsive than the 5EAT ever had any hopes of being. Upshifts are quick and firm in sport mode from the paddles, downshifts take just a bit longer to allow the engine to rev match. The only real clunky downshift is 2nd to 1st gear, but that is to do a lot more with the ratios than any deficiency in the transmission. The new 8L80E is supposed to be faster, and I'm sure it is but honestly I don't know how much of that extra shifting speed would be appreciable to the driver. I haven't driven a new Vette so I can't make a direct comparison. In 1st and 2nd gear the engine will build engine speed fast enough that you better be Johnny on the spot with up shifts or you'll bounce off the rev limiter. The heads up display comes into it's own here, particularly the configuration with the G load meter, as your engine speeds increase as you near redline you get a shift light. Very useful. Leaving it in auto isn't bad either, there is never any hunting for gears or incessant downshifting for every little hill it just cruises along in top gear unperturbed by the steepest grades I can find on an interstate. If you've never owned or extensively driven a car with a big V8 the experience of power delivery is pretty different than a turbocharged H4 of the variety you are used to. There is simply power everywhere, even gentle partial throttle openings result in a smooth build up of speed that will sneak up on you, stomp on it without the traction control on and it will just knock the rear tires off at low speeds even from a roll. You might miss the turbo surge that makes a car feel faster, but ultimately linear V8 power is more to my liking. The sound is also addictive, GM did a good job with the exhaust; there's no drone at highway speeds or low throttle openings but it is pretty vocal when you bury the loud pedal with hard distinct firing impulses sounding off at high RPM's and engine loads. I will reiterate that high speeds will sneak up on you in this car, it's pretty quiet on the highway and all that grunt means low RPM cruising with no real need to downshift, the heads up display is now mandatory for me if I'm not using cruise control because I will speed not even meaning to. Cruising along at 90MPH is easy to do, and the car feels designed to do just that or more (reminds me a lot of a BMW 550i or E39 M5), cops don't appreciate this at all. I have a ticket to prove it. Higher than intended speeds also happen easily on twisty two lane roads on account of the chassis is so damn good, and the car stays so flat and seemingly never runs out of grip. Stick it in 3rd or 4th gear on a two lane highway, put the suspension in performance mode and it will flat out get with the program, you'll find yourself entering corners faster than you think you should... and then feeding it more power and exiting even faster. Handling is very neutral, understeer is so minimal and so easy to dial out with a bit of throttle that it might as well not even exist. This is also where a flexible power band and smooth power delivery are great, you pretty much have a perfectly repeatable torque rheostat in the accelerator pedal making the chassis very easy to adjust with the throttle. The adjustable suspension is perhaps my favorite part of the car, in touring mode it is all day comfortable but not sloppy, sport is firmer and flatter, and of course performance mode is a lot of fun and activates the torque vectoring on the rear axle... it is a pretty flinty ride though. The brakes are also excellent, nice firm pedal easy to modulate, only complaint is that mine do squeal a bit if there is oxidation on the rotors and sometimes if I am very lightly applying them in reverse. Otherwise they are extremely good at slowing down the car, better by a huge margin than my old LGT could ever dream of in the stoppers department. I paid $46.5K for my car, which is Silver Ice Metallic with the sunroof and no spare, right now I'd expect deals to be even better. Stock is never going to be plentiful with this car, they only import 2500-3000 per year. You will not see yourself coming and going. Hope this helps. Frankly this is not a car that a rational adult would buy, a rational adult needing a 4 door family car buys a 6th Gen Legacy, or a Camry, or an Accord, or some other much less expensive conveyance. This is a performance car that happens to be able to act as a family car designed by people that like to drive but realize their wife and kids can't be left at home all the time, logic does not apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadvw Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 I regret that I can only thank you once for this insightful post. Especially that last paragraph Fastest car I've ever driven would have to be either the LGT, or my supercharged VR6 Corrado - I think around 260-270 hp, and quite linear, and a bit lighter, maybe like 320 hp in the SS. Great when it worked (hence the username) Had it up to 145 in <redacted> once. Fuel pump died on me soon after.. This truly might be too much car for me, especially to/from work and hauling the family around. Could I take this to a HPDE as is, or with very little modding and not worry about breaking something? My wife is sick and tired of me spending so much time thinking about the car, and at this point, as much as it pains me to admit it, I am a little tired of the "always trying to upgrade, worrying about breaking something, parts I bought 8 months ago not yet installed" mode I've been in for the last 5 years. I need something I'm happy with AS IS, or maybe with upgraded pads and maybe an intake + tune (stuff that can be done in a day or two). If I can take this onto the track for a little fun without a lot of prep work (something I could never imagine with the LGT with stock brakes, etc), then this just might be what I'm looking for... Of course, I've also had the modding bug for 25 years now, so I don't now if I can let go that easily.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted November 23, 2015 Author Share Posted November 23, 2015 Well if an intake and a tune is what you're looking for (I'm sure you've seen this already...) Livernois Motorsports probably has something for you. I'm waiting until next year to consider a Roto-Fab intake and one of their canned tunes. Gains are typically in the 25-30RWHP range, and around 30lb-ft at the rear wheels. Obviously not like throwing a tune on a turbocharged car, but still respectable. Mods beyond that like cam swaps can net big gains. Then of course there is the option to put a blower on it, maybe some day.... light boost will still get you to well over 500hp... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted November 23, 2015 Author Share Posted November 23, 2015 If you're unfamiliar with the world of GM LS series V8's here is a primer on what makes them desirable. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsmbbuSq9m0]Why is the LS so GOOD?? - /ENGINEERED - YouTube[/ame] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadvw Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Thanks, I think I already saw that. And I know a bit of boost would do amazing things - but probably not very legal as far as CARB is concerned. I know there'll probably be several CARB legal blowers for Mustangs/Camaros, but I doubt they'll certify them for the SS. Cams are probably better, since they're harder to detect What kind of mpg are you getting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted November 23, 2015 Author Share Posted November 23, 2015 Well until recently we were seeing around 23.5-24.0 MPG on the highway at 70-75MPH, and around 21.5-22MPG at 80-85MPH. At 65MPH it was flirting with about 25MPG. Now that it's cold outside, and we have our winter gas blend it's down to around 22.5-23.5MPG at the 70-75MPH speed range. I have no in town figures since I simply don't drive it enough to tell you for sure. Probably in the neighborhood of 17MPG in town if I had to guess. Don't expect your Prius driving neighbors to approve. In my experience with V8 powered cars, they usually will do a bit better than EPA ratings on the highway, and a bit worse in town. Most of our mileage is highway, and we have very low traffic levels so my results are probably not going to be repeatable for you. I rarely if ever have to come off the set cruise control speed, and that helps overall fuel economy a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadvw Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Well until recently we were seeing around 23.5-24.0 MPG on the highway at 70-75MPH, and around 21.5-22MPG at 80-85MPH. At 65MPH it was flirting with about 25MPG. Now that it's cold outside, and we have our winter gas blend it's down to around 22.5-23.5MPG at the 70-75MPH speed range. Thanks. At least 23-24 mpg is possible - that's what I'm getting with the LGT with my 16g upgrade and cruising right around 65-70. Barely. In town is more like 15-17 mpg (I do have a heavy foot). Sounds like I wouldn't really notice the difference.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted November 23, 2015 Author Share Posted November 23, 2015 Well the fuel tank on the SS is larger, so you actually get more fuel range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoplightAssassin Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 This truly might be too much car for me, especially to/from work and hauling the family around. Could I take this to a HPDE as is, or with very little modding and not worry about breaking something? My wife is sick and tired of me spending so much time thinking about the car, and at this point, as much as it pains me to admit it, I am a little tired of the "always trying to upgrade, worrying about breaking something, parts I bought 8 months ago not yet installed" mode I've been in for the last 5 years. I need something I'm happy with AS IS, or maybe with upgraded pads and maybe an intake + tune (stuff that can be done in a day or two). If I can take this onto the track for a little fun without a lot of prep work (something I could never imagine with the LGT with stock brakes, etc), then this just might be what I'm looking for... Of course, I've also had the modding bug for 25 years now, so I don't now if I can let go that easily.. The SS isn't a track beast like a new V Series Caddy, but the brake pad material is already ok for light track use and the trans has a decent sized cooler. I put a set of Vitesse Shift paddles on my car to replace the tiny stock pieces. They are a worthwhile mod for $100. As you move up into quicker run groups, all you would need are better pads and tires. The Brembos make pad changes a 5 minute affair (per corner). I would bet a stock SS will lap faster than a pretty well modified LGT, considering the tire compounds were similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted November 23, 2015 Author Share Posted November 23, 2015 Need pics of your shift paddles please.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadvw Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Any comments on 2014 vs 2015 models (suspension changes, etc)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted November 24, 2015 Author Share Posted November 24, 2015 I test drove a 2014, and bought a 2015. I really like the magnetic ride control. Touring is softer/more supple than the fixed 2014 suspension, sport mode is about the same ride wise, and performance is quite a bit stiffer. Most of the time I use touring mode, or performance mode personally. What is harder to describe is how well planted the MRC is and what it does for the car running down the road or bombing around on a twisty road. The chassis inspires a lot of confidence in both model years, but the overall edge I think goes to the MRC. Of course I am biased. I also wouldn't kick either car out of my garage. For me MRC allows me to have a comfy highway cruiser that with the turn of a knob can be firmed up into a legitimate back road burner. The in between setting is nice too, but I find myself going for all out comfort or all out performance. Touring mode is still well controlled mind you, just not as flat in corners as the other two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordhelmet1584 Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Pic whoring. Enjoy the horrible download speeds because I am lazy and didn't resize them. http://i.imgur.com/FPo901M.jpg Can you show me this with Holden badges? Holy crap that is good looking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted November 24, 2015 Author Share Posted November 24, 2015 Sorry man, I don't have any Holden badges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoplightAssassin Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Any comments on 2014 vs 2015 models (suspension changes, etc)? It's up to you what you really want and what kind of deals you can get. The '15 should have a higher resale value because of the MRC, but that means you can save upfront by going with a lightly used '14. Hell, there's even a couple "new" '14s still on dealer lots. I prefer my suspension turned up to 11 all the time. The ride will get softer with a better set of tires, even more so if you go with a non-runflat. I have 245/45/18 X-Ice3s on my car right now. The ride is much softer (but still very sporty) and noise is so much lower. If you plan on modding, it's much harder to swap the springs with the MRC. The rear Brembos on the 2015 are nice and blingy. Pad changes on them should also be pretty easy since the pad slides right in from the top. The downside is that they don't make the car stop any faster. The '15 also added 4g Wifi and a couple new colors. The '16 has a revised front bumper, some new colors, the wheels are downgraded to cast, and it will have a bimodal exhaust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadvw Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 Are the tires staggered 245/275 for all years? So, rotation is just side-to-side? And if you get directional tires, no rotation at all?? I've never driven a car with staggered tires - is it as much of a pain as it seems like it might be? Even with AWD, the fronts seemed to wear faster on the LGT - does the same happen here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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