HELP! P0021 Intake Camshaft Position Timing - Over Advanced

[CwhillVT]

If you haven't found it already, here is the thread where I ultimately determined root cause. It sucked, but I am happy it is resolved and I leanred a bunch about the AVCS system in the process.

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/help-request-avcs-related-problem-131462.html?t=131462

 

Yep read through that thread also, nice work. I hope that cleaning my OCV will do the trick, if not I might have some cam sprocket fun to look forward to(but I really really hope i dont).

[CwhillVT]

So in response to a P0021, I removed and cleanded the driver's side ocv and havent gotten a CEL again since (5 days). It didn't seem to be sticky or frozen but I cleaned it thourougly anyway. The engine runs alot better now. That definately did the trick.

[Merc6]

I remembered how to get the right side one off now, I took out the bolt that secures the coolant tank, lifted it without removing the hoses, then bent the bracket slightly inwards.

 

This allows you to pull the OCV half way out, then turn it 90 degrees before pulling it the rest of the way out.

 

The passenger one looks so easy cause nothing appears to be in the way like the driver side. The bending the bracket and rotate 90 deg turn was very helpful.

 

 

I did the carb & choke method and that didn't work. I ended up just buying all brand new ones from a vendor and they weren't that expensive.

[DeathMobile]

Got these codes...blew the turbo. Installed new BNR turbo, new oil lines, and removed the banjo filter...drove for 1600 miles and now we have a rough idle/almost stalling. I cleaned the valves a second time (did it 1600 miles ago when I did the turbo) and it didn't work. If I unplug the ocv sensor...idle isn't as choppy...plug it in and it bogs down and sound bad.

 

Going to replace both sensors. Hopefully it is a bad solenoid and not a clogged banjo filter on the driver side. Easy fix will be tried first.

[Merc6]

what was your OCI?

[DeathMobile]

3K

 

like i said though, i serviced it 1600 miles ago when i put the new turbo in...so i really doubt mobil 1 is bad after 1600 miles.

[mrjk77]

i was under the impression that people on here changed their mobil1 every 1k miles?

[DeathMobile]

mobil 1 bad for this engine? i can't really see how any specific synthetic would really effect things.

 

i swapped the sensors out this evening and it still idles really bad and wants to stall. the computer seems to rev the engine up to 1500rpm and it sounds great...but once it comes back down it goes down to like 300rpm and tries to stall...never really does, but it comes close. it generally idles really rough right now and temperature doesn't effect it.

 

what am i looking for?

[matt.chase]

I had this issue recently. Engine threw the P0021 code (bank 2 passenger side).

 

Removed both OCV's and cleaned with carb cleaner, reinstalled and cleared code.

 

Drove it again, same code was thrown. Removed both OCV's and tested both with a 12V source. Both solenoids appeared to work.

 

Swapped passenger side OCV with drive side OCV, cleared code and drove it again. This time P0011 was thrown (bank 1 driver side). This indicated that the OCV originally installed on the passenger side was bad. Picked up a new one and now have no issues.

[ripsweetness]

I had this issue recently. Engine threw the P0021 code (bank 2 passenger side).

 

Removed both OCV's and cleaned with carb cleaner, reinstalled and cleared code.

 

Drove it again, same code was thrown. Removed both OCV's and tested both with a 12V source. Both solenoids appeared to work.

 

Swapped passenger side OCV with drive side OCV, cleared code and drove it again. This time P0011 was thrown (bank 1 driver side). This indicated that the OCV originally installed on the passenger side was bad. Picked up a new one and now have no issues.

 

 

How much was the OCV?

[Merc6]

i was under the impression that people on here changed their mobil1 every 1k miles?

Mine gets changed out every time I reach speeds over 100 mph. 5th oil change this week!

 

 

No i'm 3.5- 4k changes due to the fact 4k changes are still putting me in a 2 month window. Back in my racing days I timed the oil changes just after a track day. I'd rather run $21 in 0w-30 vs deal with other issues cause I went 3k changes on shop tech dino oil.

[FredBeans]

Hi folks. Due to the high number of requests we've had for replacement OCVs, we've added them to our site for your convenience.

 

You can find them here: http://www.fredbeansparts.com/index.php/subaru-legacy-gt-oil-control-valve.html

 

* Need to select '05-'06 or '07-'09 to get the correct version for your car.

 

http://www.fredbeansparts.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/1/0/10921aa020.jpg

[mrjk77]

It would be better to replace both at the same time IMHO, if one is failing, the other one won't be far behind.

 

this is sorta true. from my original post (below), the first (left side) OCV died on me over one year ago @ 60k miles. this is the P0021 code. the second OCV died just recently - 3 weeks ago at about 79k miles. this is the P0011 code.

 

Driving home today the P0021 CEL appeared for me. I am at 73.5K miles. I have not data logged the car yet to see if this is the case, but from everything I read, chances are good that I am going to have to replace the OCV's too.

 

I took them out and cleaned them, and changed the oil and it still came back.

 

The tip on bending the bracket worked great, but man that is a beefy bracket.

 

yes, this bracket is a beefy bracket. it took me about 5 minutes to get to the bracket.

- remove engine cover

- remove airbox/hose

- lift tank up

 

i never did get the bracket to bend back to the original position and just left it where it was. oh well.

 

ahhh...

 

ok i just threw the the P0021 code. sounds like everyone is cleaning/replacing the OCVs. CEL came on at about 60000. i cleared it with the AP and was fine for another ~1k miles. today CEL came on again with the rough idle.

 

my "symptoms" for the P0021 code were much different than this time around (w/P0011). i never had the rough idle or stalling problem. this time, i was just driving home from work, cruising at 65-70, under no acceleration and the CEL came on with flashing cruise. i gave it a little gas, and heard a noise coming from the engine bay. thought i blew the turbo immediately. but after some driving around, there was no loss of power or anything like that. i cleared the code, and it eventually came back. i did this maybe one or two other times. i forgot that back in 2009, i got 2 OCVS and had the spare new one already here. threw it in yesterday and so far no problems and no cel. hopefully this was the solution.

[col2408]

Have about 70,000 miles on the car. Few months ago, I was driving up to work and from no where heard noises coming from the turbo and had a loss of power. Immediately knew I had blown the turbo. It wasn't until after the turbo blew that the CEL came on. Replaced turbo under warranty and everything was fine for a while.

 

Just the other day, I was driving and the CEL came on. Never had any symptoms like rough idleing or stalling. Car seemed to be driving fine. Codes were P0021 and P0011. Checked my oil level, which was extremely low, the dipstick was completely dry when I pulled it out. I added some oil and drove a little to see if the CEL came on due to lack of oil pressure because my oil level was so low. The CEL didn't go off and I began to hear noises from the turbo again like I had the first time the turbo blew. I ended up replacing both of the OCV's. Cleared the CEL and car seems to be fixed. CEL has stayed off and the turbo sounds good again, no strange noises. I will certainly be a little cautious the next few weeks and keep my ears open for any signs of bad noise. I guess when they fixed my car under warranty they fixed the result of the problem, the blown turbo, but not the cause of the problem, which I believe to be faulty OCV valves.

 

The OCV valves were really easy to replace. Driver side was 5 minutes. Pulled the hose directly behind valve and took bolt out.

 

Passenger side was almost as easy. 10 mins. Didn't have to bend any bracket. Pulled the hose directly behind OCV and took bolt out. I was able to get the valve to slide out by rotating it on its side like someone had said but bending the bracket wasnt necessary.

 

Thanks for the help, saved my turbo

[matt.chase]

Col2408,

Faulty OCV's won't blow your turbo. They affect the timing advance and the passenger side one is after the oil supply to the turbo in the loop. However, Lack of lubrication will certainly fail the turbo. I'm going to say you probably have metal from the blown one in your lubrication system. The smallest bit of metal will cause them to stick.

Did you pull the oil pan and inspect or just throw the new one on?

[col2408]

Thanks for your help. I replaced both with new valves and changed the engine oil and filter before starting the car with the new valves. It's been about 2 days, and beginning today, I am hearing very very slight abnormal noises from the turbo every now and then under light acceleration at low speeds. Under a load, the turbo sounds really good actually. The noises are different in sound than what I was hearing from before I replaced the valves and changed the oil, but either way, I am still concerned. CEL is yet to come back on. I haven't yet inspected my used used oil that I drained out for metal shavings, but I can definitely do that. What do you think is going on and recommend? You think I should clean the banjo bolts on the passenger/turbo side? I've read a lot about cleaning/removing those bolts and I'm still not totally sure what the deal is with them... and if it is now necessary for me to pull and clean them? Will pulling the oil pan do me any good at this point and do the legacys have a magnet in the oil pan?

[Merc6]

I replaced the turbo months after my post and Fred Beans. My bolt was clean and I change oil 50-60 days after the last change. haven't had the cel come back.

[matt.chase]

I would recommend pulling the pan and having a look. I believe that's what subaru recommends. Its no fun to do and involves jacking up the engine. The deal with the banjo bolt screen is to protect your turbo from particles in the oil. I'd pull it and have a look. Although if you find metal in there you most likely have some major issues. ie metal in the top end oil ports.

[Merc6]

Didn't word that right. I usually change 50-60 days but I been doing them frequent than that. Didn't find anything in pan or oil. Swapped turbo, swapped to super blue and ran fresh oil & filter for like 4 days then swapped out again.

[col2408]

I haven't found any metal in the pan or oil that has been drained. It's very hard to hear the noise if you don't know what you're listening for. If I'm on the highway going about 70mph and let off the gas and coast down to about 60, then touch the gas very lightly.. right around 2600rpm, I start to hear that distinctive noise from the turbo for about 1-2 seconds. Once the engine hits 3000rpm, the turbo sounds fine. If you get on the gas hard, the noise doesn't happen at all and the turbo sounds fine then also. It's like the very moment the turbo begins to spool up is when the noise happens. Maybe, the noise is only happening while the turbo fan isn't spinning fast. Which may be why the noise doesn't happen when u accelerate hard, because the turbo fan doesn't spend any time spinning slow like it does when i very lightly touch the gas after coasting on the highway. I'm totally confused about this and my head is in a loop over it. I'm going crazy trying to figure out what is going on. Add the thought of blowing a second turbo and it's not fun to drive the car anymore. I've replaced both OCV's which fixed the problem 90% of the way. Still no CEL has come on. I haven't yet pulled the banjo bolt. Do you think that could be the cause of the problem? I was considering pulling that and doing a another oil change. To be honest, I'm not sure that is going to fix the problem, I'm only considering that because I am out of ideas.

[col2408]

Update - blew my turbo... again. It's warrantied for a year, so I'm getting it replaced for free at the dealer, but I stressed to them to look for the real problem. Replacing the turbo will not fix this problem. I have been asking around... synthetic oil should not be used in these cars. This can cause problems. Also, the design of the engine and turbo setup are highly prone to engine sludge. Subarus, audis, and volkswagon turbo models are in law suits right now due to the amount of people experiencing these exact problems. Haven't heard back yet from the dealer on a diagnosis on my car.

[PearlBlueGT]

how it is it supposed to slide? I took mine out out and only thing that slides is little pin on the end

[Max Capacity]

I just spoke with the mechanic. He said they looked at the OCV's, Cam position sensors, and Banjo filter.

 

All look clean, he said on 7 other of these cars he has removed the banjo filter. So we're going with that. I just need a couple more month's then baby get's a new short block and turbo.

 

Just got home with the car. The banjo filter looks good. Hold it up to the light and you can see threw it. A few small black particles that's about it. Not bad for almost 142,000 miles. They charge me $106. for the labor to check and clean everything.

[PearlBlueGT]

Ordered 2 OCV valves from Fred Beans. It's taking way too long for mine to ship. They will be here next week so total of 2 weeks. Good thing is that I have spare car to drive....

[PearlBlueGT]

Installed new OCV but CEL is still on, what do I do next?