Chris GTO TT Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 I'm stage 2 with a pro tune and my spec.B is, seat of the pants, faster than a 15 wrx I test drove a while back. My GF felt the same way. 2003 Baja 5MT 2016 Outback 2.5i Premium w/Eyesight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Donated thefultonhow Posted January 10, 2015 I Donated Share Posted January 10, 2015 Question for you guys that upgraded to WRX... were your legacys running stage 2 or stock? If stage 2 and above what's your feelings towards the difference in power? My Spec.B was mild Stage 3 (BNR Evo 16G, stock fueling) with a pro-tune, but my tune was kind of meh in the power department, so I would consider it more of a Stage 2 level tune (it had Stage 2 power levels). There's no comparison on the low end. There is basically no lag on the WRX due to the low-mount turbo and the direct injection, and it pulls hard starting at around 2200 rpm. My 05 Legacy was also mild Stage 3 but with a more exciting but probably less safe e-tune, and the low-end is also better on the WRX than it was on that car. In terms of top end, I'd say it's a little more even with my Spec.B, and my 05 was probably slightly faster on the top end than my stock 15 WRX is. But that's stock vs. Evo 16G. I've also seen some terrific numbers from Stage 1 pro-tunes. Bren is wringing Evo 16G/VF52 power numbers out of a Stage 1 tune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xt2005bonbon Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 AND you are probably getting better gas mileage too.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Donated thefultonhow Posted January 10, 2015 I Donated Share Posted January 10, 2015 AND you are probably getting better gas mileage too.. Yep! Significantly better. Although my trip computer is pretty optimistic in terms of computer-calculated vs. observed fuel economy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnyt88 Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 My Spec.B ..... How do you or others rate the Spec.B / Legacy Limited interior vs the WRX with leather? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 WRX doesn't at all compare for interior. In what way? I found the STi's interior to be equally or better put together than the 4th gen LGT. Switchgear, buttons, knobs, materials... all of good quality. Previous WRXs felt like kitted out eco-boxes, but not the new ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Still not as nice an interior as the 5G LGT. I will admit though that the new car is not as butt-ugly in person as it is in photos. Still nothing I'd park outside and take photos of but not as 'hide it in the garage for the public good' ugly as the photos make it out to be. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scontivt Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Was Cobb OTS Stage 1 on a 2005 LGT Manual. Felt like going up 20-30HP over the Legacy. Pulls harder, earlier, and I'm loving it. Will wait to tune until after the warranty, as these now have an EDR that tells Subaru when you reset your ECU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scontivt Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 3rd gen or 4th gen? It feels very large compared to my 4th... But yes, dimensions say it is like 5" shorter in length, 2" wider, 2" taller, wheelbase is about 1" shorter, and 2" wider track. http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb227/aigochamaloh/WRX/DSC_2344_zpsb8478464.jpg And I had a 4th gen, sorry, I should have remembered that, but forgot and counted the 95-99 as Gen 1, not 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Will wait to tune until after the warranty.. Good idea, considering the powertrain is almost identical to the SJ9 Forester, which was already subject to several recalls. When they call you to go in for the reflash they will know you were tuned* and you will have warranty issues. If you don't go in or refuse the update, you'll be denied any powertrain warranty claims down the line. Lose / lose. * When the dealer cannot connect via SSM they will know you have an ECUTek tune, even they can't see the data or write date. Our dealers have even forwarded ECUs to Japan for analysis when they were unable to connect via the usual methods. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eldrego Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 So the most you can do is bolt ons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 So the most you can do is bolt ons? I'd at least wait to see if there's a recall as there was on the SJ9, if you value the powertrain warranty. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Donated thefultonhow Posted January 13, 2015 I Donated Share Posted January 13, 2015 How do you or others rate the Spec.B / Legacy Limited interior vs the WRX with leather? I have the cloth seats and no sunroof, but have seen cars with a sunroof and the only difference with leather is the covering of the seats and the power adjustment. I'd agree with ssbtech that the switchgear is as good as or better than the 4th gen LGT. A lot of that stuff seems pretty upscale. It's the details that remind you you're driving a hot version of an $18k car. The hood on the MFD is hard plastic with visible seams (although there is a JDM version with leather and red stitching to match the wheel and armrest available from JapanParts). The headliner is more of the "mouse-fur" variety than the woven cloth on the LGT, and the A-pillar covers are plastic, as is the rear package shelf. The sun visors also do not have the extensions for use on the side windows like the LGT had, which is probably my biggest issue with the interior because the greenhouse is now taller and it's easier to get sun in your eyes. With that said, the stuff that the driver interacts with the most is great. The seats are super supportive and very comfortable if you keep them bolt upright. I did a road trip over Christmas and felt much better after 9 hours of sitting in the car than I ever did in my LGTs. The wheel is great. Love the flat bottom, love the thickness, and the stitching and indentations are much more comfortable than they were on the Momo wheels on the 05-07 LGTs. Not a big fan of the red lighting in the cluster, but everything else about it is good. The MFD is good. The knobs for climate control are pretty nice, and the climate control functions much better than it did on the LGT (it goes 60-90* rather than 65-85, and the extra temperature settings seem to play a part in the improvement). I also like that there is a lighted cubby in front of the shifter now. Great place for sunglasses, pens, etc, which was always a problem on my LGTs, especially the Spec.B with the nav in the top cubby location. The radio interface (non-GPS model) is merely okay, and I wish they had a larger, color LCD screen like most modern non-GPS radios have, but it's good enough, and I do like the physical preset buttons, which my fiance's Veloster Turbo does not have (they are touch screen soft buttons on that car). The RDS track info is available on the MFD, since it doesn't display well on the radio. The USB and Bluetooth both function well, although the voice-command interface for the Bluetooth is a bit clunky. Anyway, I guess my point is that Subaru really did a good job on most of the major stuff that the driver interacts with, but the little details on the periphery are iffy. Still not as nice an interior as the 5G LGT. Really? I have found that the 5th gen Legacy/Outback interior is functional, but looks mediocre. Nothing upscale about it at all IMO. Was Cobb OTS Stage 1 on a 2005 LGT Manual. Felt like going up 20-30HP over the Legacy. Pulls harder, earlier, and I'm loving it. Will wait to tune until after the warranty, as these now have an EDR that tells Subaru when you reset your ECU. Pretty sure the EDR is only for recording crash data. Here's what the BRZ's manual says about the EDR in that car: The EDR is designed to record data related to vehicle dynamics and safety systems for a short period of time, typically 30 seconds or less. The EDR in this vehicle is designed to record such data as: • How various systems in your vehicle were operating; • Whether or not the driver and passenger safety belts were buckled/fastened; • How far (if at all) the driver was depressing the accelerator and/or brake pedal; and, • How fast the vehicle was traveling. These data can help provide a better understanding of the circumstances in which crashes and injuries occur. NOTE: EDR data are recorded by your vehicle only if a non-trivial crash situation occurs; no data are recorded by the EDR under normal driving conditions and no personal data (e.g., name, gender, age, and crash location) are recorded. However, other parties, such as law enforcement, could combine the EDR data with the type of personally identifying data routinely acquired during a crash investigation. When the dealer cannot connect via SSM they will know you have an ECUTek tune, even they can't see the data or write date. Our dealers have even forwarded ECUs to Japan for analysis when they were unable to connect via the usual methods. This wouldn't apply with a Cobb AP that has been unmarried, though... With that said, sometimes dealers use the fact that the ECU has been reset to deny warranty claims, and the unmarry process resets the ECU, so that's kind of a crapshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 This wouldn't apply with a Cobb AP that has been unmarried, though... With that said, sometimes dealers use the fact that the ECU has been reset to deny warranty claims, and the unmarry process resets the ECU, so that's kind of a crapshoot. Yes. They've gotten better (smarter) at this. I hear the Toyota ECU not only stores the last reset but also the last write date. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scontivt Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Still wouldn't want to risk paying $5,000+ for an ECU/Engine/Turbo/Transmission based on the assumption that they have no way of telling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Donated thefultonhow Posted January 13, 2015 I Donated Share Posted January 13, 2015 Yes. They've gotten better (smarter) at this. I hear the Toyota ECU not only stores the last reset but also the last write date. Yeah, I think Subaru ECUs have done this too. However, supposedly unmarrying the AP restores the ECU back to the state before you married it, including the flash counter/date. Still wouldn't want to risk paying $5,000+ for an ECU/Engine/Turbo/Transmission based on the assumption that they have no way of telling. I got the maintenance plan from the dealer (they cut the price so that it was cheaper to buy up front than to shop around when it came time for service), so I think on my first service, I'm going to say to my service manager that I've been considering getting a Cobb AP, and ask what he would do in a case where my car was Cobb Stage 1 with no other power mods and I had a major engine repair. If he says "I would deny the warranty claim," I would say, "Okay, that settles that, I'm not buying one." If he says he would probably cover it, I'd see whether I could get it in writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I took my car to the dealer to have them read some freeze frame data related to a misfire. I had Cobb Stage 1 and instead of simply reading the ECU data, the tech thought he'd be smart and flash it with the latest Subaru update. Back to Stage 0 and an AP that thinks it's still married. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Honestly, I think a buyer who's not satisfied with the performance at stock should just buy the STi instead. Much better platform to start from and far easier to mod. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Donated thefultonhow Posted January 14, 2015 I Donated Share Posted January 14, 2015 Honestly, I think a buyer who's not satisfied with the performance at stock should just buy the STi instead. Much better platform to start from and far easier to mod. You don't get the same type of performance from the STI. The DI on the FA20, and the twinscroll, mean the power is there right away with minimal lag. The STI is great up top, but not as good down low. It's still an EJ, and although I have not personally driven an STI, everything I've read said it's more peaky than a VF52 WRX. Furthermore, an STI would have been $8000 more than my WRX. Maybe you have that kind of money lying around, but I don't. The reason I would run Stage 1 is twofold: one, there is much more power available with just a tune, and two, power delivery on the stock tune is not great in the midrange. Honestly, I don't NEED the tune, but it would be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 You don't get the same type of performance from the STI. The DI on the FA20, and the twinscroll, mean the power is there right away with minimal lag. The STI is great up top, but not as good down low. It's still an EJ, and although I have not personally driven an STI, everything I've read said it's more peaky than a VF52 WRX. Furthermore, an STI would have been $8000 more than my WRX. Maybe you have that kind of money lying around, but I don't. The reason I would run Stage 1 is twofold: one, there is much more power available with just a tune, and two, power delivery on the stock tune is not great in the midrange. Honestly, I don't NEED the tune, but it would be nice. I'm really glad you like your new car. Please don't take this as hating or anything like that. I don't expect you to agree with my logic, but it's my logic... 1. I don't trust the current DI system. On the BRZ you get port injectors and DI too. That means the intake valve guides get some lubrication. I predict the FA20DIT will start seeing valve guide seal fails ala BMW N54, except you will have to pull the whole motor to replace them instead of pulling the head with the motor in-situ. 2. The DI system is a limiting factor in performance potential. No larger injectors or stronger pumps available, and when they are... $$$. If you're happy with the power when the fuel system is maxxed out, great. If not, you're in a tough spot it will take cubic dollars to get out of. 3. I don't have much faith in the stock ECU. Every time you increase power, you increase the rate at which important engine parameters change, simply because the engine rpm can accelerate faster. When the ECU can't keep up you run into problems. The Toyota-derived unit in the DI models doesn't even have a floating-point processor! 4. I don't have any faith in the two transmissions available in the VAG. I don't want a CVT or any 'automatic' transmission short of a proper DSG. The little 6MT will prove to be a limiting factor in how much torque you can put down reliably, and I hate the sloppy feeling from the cable shifters. Very difficult to graft the proper STi 6MT into this car. 5. I've easily dropped $8k making my GH8 into a GRB-killer. Actually, my GH8 was the equivalent of US$40k when I bought it and the GRB was US$58k. I'd have been glad to only pay an $8k premium. I agree it's dumb to spend that much to upgrade to what an available product can already do, but I did so because there was a 3 month waiting list for a GRB when I needed a car. My choice was between the WRX and a 4EAT FXT. Once I'd bought it, I could help but compare it to the GRB and find it lacking. It would have been so much easier to just buy the GRB, go to stg2, and be done with it, have no fears about the warranty, the transmission breaking etc. 6. There are more differences between the VAF and VAG than there were between the GH8 and GRB, which will make it almost impossible to raise the performance or reliability of the VAG to that of the VAF. 7. Mod options are so much better for the (admittedly ancient) EJ motor. We know what works and parts are plentiful. Of course this factor will lessen as time goes on and more is learned about the FA unit. The problems they've run into with the (same) FA20DIT in the SJ9 makes me feel not all the teething troubles are sorted yet. I hate being an early-adopter and getting screwed over. Just in my area, nine SJ9s have blown engines and those that haven't are starting a class-action suit against the importer for problems associated with the recall. Again, I'm not looking to piss on your parade or anything and I really hope you have a great experience with your new car. I'm just explaining why I didn't go out and buy a new VAG. I am actually looking forward to having Opensource tools so I can have a go myself at seeing what the potential is on stock hardware. I have driven the new VAF btw, and tuned it to stg2, and it's great. Can spool just as quick as the GRB, has more intercooler and a bigger hotside the stock cats hide the potential of. The new 13:1 steering rack is absolutely awesome too. Suspension is like a well modified and set-up GVH right out of the box. The stiffer chassis (vs. either GVH or VAG) allows quite supple springs to be used while maintaining great control, the car feels really planted. My only gripes were that the interior wasn't quite the step up from the BR Legacy I'd hoped for and the stock throttle mapping was horrible. At least the mapping was easily fixed. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Donated thefultonhow Posted January 14, 2015 I Donated Share Posted January 14, 2015 I think your criticisms are mostly valid, at least for the time being. I am definitely a bit nervous about the traditional DI reliability problems, the STI 6MT is better, and aftermarket support is definitely lower right now (not an issue for me as I don't plan to go crazy modding). I do think all the issues with the possible exception of the DI problems are either surmountable, or merely not an issue for me, but only for other people. I do think it comes down to priorities. That's why Subaru did not put the FA20 in the STI -- they knew the race teams would want proven, reliable power, and they weren't going to get that on a brand new platform. However, for my purposes, and quite frankly for the purposes of stock, Stage 1, and Stage 2 4G LGT owners, I think the WRX is the better option of the two and one of the best options currently on the market from a performance bang-for-buck standpoint and from a performance/refinement/cost trade-off standpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Yes, I think the guys who can resist the mod bug should be pretty happy. I'm just not one of them Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dga Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Yes, I think the guys who can resist the mod bug should be pretty happy.... Ha ha ha... They've learned to stay stock and stay happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Well, it's easier when there isn't a better version of your car to ride in and sow discontent. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scontivt Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Once the FA 20 or 25 STi comes out, then we'll have people searching for new and better ways to blow up their WRX... lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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