Underdog Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Updates? The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Catalyst. Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share Posted February 20, 2013 I took a few days off from troubleshooting (and work) last week to snowboard. Was nice to stop thinking about this ordeal for a bit. I have determined the BPV is not releasing during the event. Last night I also ensured the vac line was secure on the MAP sensor. I am going to meet up with Mattg soon, and swap in his known working MAP sensor to see if that's the issue or not. If I understood the logic correct from our PMs... - if the BPV does release during the event the IM is under vacuum, and the inlet could be collapsing (or another pre turbo air intake tract issue). - if the BPV does not release during the event then the MAP is reading vacuum in the IM but it is not actually deep in vacuum because the valve isn't releasing. My spec.B [#163] Project Thread with Pictures Get CryoTuned! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Just out of curiosity, how did you confirm that the BPV is not releasing? The logic is correct and is premised on accurate diagnosis of actual BPV operation. The BPV is actuated by vacuum and plumbed off the intake manifold. If the BPV is not opening, but functions correctly otherwise, then there is no vacuum at the BPV signal line. Proper troubleshooting would require you to verify that there are no obstructions in the line between the manifold and BPV, but if the BPV is operating correctly in other conditions, then you can consider this page read. If it is in fact opening then there must be vacuum at the signal line, or an incredibly high boost pressure. The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Catalyst. Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share Posted February 21, 2013 My test was as follows: To ensure functional BPV and signal line wasn't clogged - I had the car idling with disconnected reference vac line and as soon as I held it up to the nipple on the BPV there was a distinct "tink" noise from the piston within the BPV. Move hose away from nipple and repeat with same results a few times. No blockage found as I actually sucked in a small cup of seafoam through this same line and it's got great vacuum. Then to ensure during the event the BPV was not releasing - I removed the recirc line back to the inlet to go full VTA. Did a pull to initiate event and no audible venting occurred which at this point was quite pronounced under normal "lift" events when you'd expect the BPV to actuate and release pressure. My spec.B [#163] Project Thread with Pictures Get CryoTuned! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNVAR Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Err... you're not supposed to hear a "tink" noise from your piston when you disconnect and reconnect your line during idle. Connecting that vacuum line during idle should not be moving your piston upwards. That piston should only move upwards when you have vacuum and slight boost, which happens when your throttle plate is closed, creating an inequality in pressure between the top and bottom of the piston. The force from the spring is supposed to be stronger than the force exerted by the vacuum by a bit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Catalyst. Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share Posted February 21, 2013 This is a post I read regarding how the Forge BPV works: Under boost the pressure on either side of the piston should be equal. The way the valve is designed has a much larger surface area on the top of the valve, so under boost, the valve should essentially hold it self closed without a spring at all (assuming equal pressure on either side of the piston). But at vacuum the valve is actually being pulled upwards. This is what the spring is used for. It holds the valve closed at idle, and helps to quickly close it when needed. Really the spring should only have to be strong enough to overcome vacuum pressure. Anything more than that is just slowing down its response. So I should have enough spring pressure to avoid vac at idle pulling the piston upwards? If I understand the above statement correctly - under boost the valve is closed (spring redundant at this point) to avoid bleed via the recirculation hose. When lifting (throttle plate closes), the IM goes deeper into vacuum, and opens due to additional pressure on the top of the piston which allows the charged air to recirculate (but still against the pressure of the spring so vac level will "win over the spring"). Based on this understanding the spring isn't to assist the piston to resist the pressure of boost - but to avoid pulling the piston upwards at idle vac levels (which aren't as strong as the move to full vac when the throttle plate is fully shut. I did run with the OEM BPV and the event still occurs, but perhaps I need to tune my BPV more. I don't have a rough idle and had read for this BPV - I only needed enough spring pressure to avoid that issue. I have all the springs and spacers available for this and can add more tension to avoid a "tink" at idle vacuum when attaching the line from the IM to the nipple on the valve. My spec.B [#163] Project Thread with Pictures Get CryoTuned! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Catalyst. Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share Posted February 21, 2013 Also I believe it's time to get a boost gauge. With that in line prior to the BPV, I will know what the IM is at, and can compare to MAP readings. I know it was recommended before by people in this thread to put a gauge on it, but it was a costly add (I have my site set on the VBG1). I was hoping I'd be able to narrow this down without the aid of that. Even with the BPV perfectly dialed I believe the event will still occur and it would be beneficial to know if MAP senses a different pressure than the gauge. My spec.B [#163] Project Thread with Pictures Get CryoTuned! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNVAR Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 So I should have enough spring pressure to avoid vac at idle pulling the piston upwards?Yes, and a bit more for safety. Not too much, of course, or else you'll end up with flutter. If I understand the above statement correctly - under boost the valve is closed (spring redundant at this point) to avoid bleed via the recirculation hose.In theory, it's redundant. In practice, you really need that spring to be exerting a bit of force for it to operate reliably and consistently. If there were no spring and the piston were actually experiencing equal pressure (this is what you theoretically see under boost) then the piston would technically be free-floating and would experience movement from things like gravity, g-forces from cornering/swerving, bumps, etc. When lifting (throttle plate closes), the IM goes deeper into vacuum, and opens due to additional pressure on the top of the piston It's not because your IM goes into deeper vacuum. It opens because of the inequality of pressure from: a) bottom of the piston (coming from your turbo having generated excess boost) which is pre-throttle plate and b) the top of the piston being in vacuum from the IM (post-throttle plate). This moves the piston upwards which opens a path for air to vent out from under the piston. Based on this understanding the spring isn't to assist the piston to resist the pressure of boost - but to avoid pulling the piston upwards at idle vac levels (which aren't as strong as the move to full vac when the throttle plate is fully shut.Still necessary for reliable and good operation as I explained above. I did run with the OEM BPV and the event still occurs, but perhaps I need to tune my BPV more. I don't have a rough idle and had read for this BPV - I only needed enough spring pressure to avoid that issue. I have all the springs and spacers available for this and can add more tension to avoid a "tink" at idle vacuum when attaching the line from the IM to the nipple on the valve.Well then that's probably not the problem if you went to a known working stock BPV... But the whole thing you described about the BPV going "tink" when reconnecting the line just sort of caught my eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero1 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Sure I've had a few to drink tonight but... If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If it is broke, time to go crazy with a motor build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Catalyst. Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share Posted February 21, 2013 But the whole thing you described about the BPV going "tink" when reconnecting the line just sort of caught my eye.Thanks! I appreciate the explanation and get it now. I'll revise the spring pressure accordingly. Since the known good OEM BPV didn't resolve the issue - I'll continue my pursuit of testing with a known good MAP sensor, and a boost gauge to see if MAP = IM pressure read by boost gauge. My spec.B [#163] Project Thread with Pictures Get CryoTuned! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Catalyst. Posted February 21, 2013 Author Share Posted February 21, 2013 Sure I've had a few to drink tonight but... If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If it is broke, time to go crazy with a motor build I hear ya man! My spec.B [#163] Project Thread with Pictures Get CryoTuned! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero1 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Trust me, I'm in the same position but with lack of power and oil burning LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Catalyst. Posted February 24, 2013 Author Share Posted February 24, 2013 MAJOR Update - Problem has been resolved Great news! I tried a couple things today. First I used my friend Matt's MAP sensor to troubleshoot and validate its functionality. With MAF unplugged the event still occurred, so I thought it would be worth pursuing. We put his MAP sensor in and no dice - event still occurred. Put mine back in and we were talking about possible post MAF/pre turbo leaks and looking at inlets first. He looked at my Post MAF tube and said, "this is pretty squishy". I agreed, and mentioned since going from the AVO to the Venair piece - I never was really happy with the fit or quality of the silicone, (installed this along with my PW TMIC and got a retune about 5K prior to the event beginning). I didn't have my OEM piece, and tried to order another AVO in black vs. the red one I had previously and sold; and they were backordered (mentioned my lack of faith in this product earlier in the thread). I ensured it was tight and kept troubleshooting. Well, I used Matt's OEM tube and the problem is resolved!!! It must have been collapsing under heavy load. I'm really grateful for everyone's input that helped narrow this down, and continued concern with this issue offering tips and great ideas to troubleshoot! This is a huge load off and now I can continue on with my future plans knowing the car is healthy again. Also - I highly recommend not using the Venair products for obvious reasons. Apparently after some heat cycling these can soften up to where Stage 2 boost levels are able to suck them shut. My spec.B [#163] Project Thread with Pictures Get CryoTuned! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattg Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 w00t! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Catalyst. Posted February 24, 2013 Author Share Posted February 24, 2013 I wish. I feel like I've reached a dead end. Outside of continuing to replace items and "hope" it works, I don't know what to troubleshoot further. My mechanic says the car runs so good outside of that event I should just adjust the throttle so I don't get to 100%. That's not my style - it bothers me to no end that there is an issue. It's not in the tune, we've ruled that out so I don't have an option there. Since the BPV isn't releasing during the event, iNVAR's input is of note, and I'm considering just replacing the inlet. I've already ordered a replacement post MAF section of the intake track because the Venair piece does not instill a lot of confidence. It's super soft silicone, and not sized correct on the airbox side (too large of a diameter), so when tightening the T-Clamps it is a pain to ensure it's sealed. I'm hoping this may be where a possible collapse is occurring. If not then I'll move to the inlet as I know the OEM has been pretty abused on the turbo side when the dealership did my VF40 warranty replacement. I've sprayed carb cleaner on it with no change in idle, but since this only happens at load, I imagine it needs to be fully pressurized to expose a possible issue.Too bad the black AVO post MAF were backordered back when I had my doubts in post #99... I couldn't see spending money on a red or blue one, and the order was cancelled due to no black ones available. I highly recommend against the Venair - the AVO was much stouter if you're replacing the post MAF section of the intake with silicone. I'll be sticking OEM. My spec.B [#163] Project Thread with Pictures Get CryoTuned! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Catalyst. Posted February 24, 2013 Author Share Posted February 24, 2013 w00t!You the man - thanks for loaning me the part that fixed the issue and pointing out the squish factor of the Venair. My spec.B [#163] Project Thread with Pictures Get CryoTuned! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNVAR Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Awesome, about damn time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurlyOldManMN Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Mystery solved! http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-MV05d8SoQ4s/TaYyefHjDbI/AAAAAAAAA7Y/XqNGC1TZO0A/s1600/Batman-Robin-Scooby-Doo.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Catalyst. Posted February 24, 2013 Author Share Posted February 24, 2013 Awesome, about damn time.Thanks for your help iNVAR. After the issue was resolved I went ahead and fine tuned the Forge BPV with enough spring pressure so the BPV piston resists the pull of vacuum at idle. Just enough so that when at idle/vac there is no longer a slight "think" when reconnecting the reference line from the IM. Doesn't seem to heavy since I'm not getting any compressor surge on lift. Should be correct now as well. My spec.B [#163] Project Thread with Pictures Get CryoTuned! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Nice! Glad to hear it has been resolved! The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cryo Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Glad to hear. Dave [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Providing unmatched customer service and a Premium level of Dyno/E-tuning to the Community cryotuneperformance@yahoo.com facebook.com/cryotuneperformance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattg Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Glad that worked. I know you were bummed that the MAP didn't fix it but the hose will end up being a much cheaper fix! You either got a dud hose from Venair or their product is a straight up POS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators BarManBean Posted February 24, 2013 Moderators Share Posted February 24, 2013 Friggin' awesome. "Bullet-proof" your OEM TMIC! <<Buy your kit here>> Not currently in stock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero1 Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 It's about time... LOL jk man glad you got it fixed!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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