Valve Body Mods, Giant Leaps Forward!!!

[ClimberDHexMods]

I'm interested, I haven't done the research to see if there's difference in the Outback and Legacy trans though, this would be for my OBKXT.

 

Outback XT has different final drive ratios, but VBs should be the same. I'll obviously go into much more detail to confirm this before I take on OBXT client.

 

On a side note... to save you a bit of $, look into drillind a hole in the pan and taping in a drain. That way you atleast can reuse your ATF and keep spillage to a minimum. also will make life a lot easier. Just an idea.

 

One step ahead of you I was the first person (on these forums) to identify the 5eat drain plug as M18x1.5, in order to put a Fumoto drain valve on it. I have not yet bought the plug, but it's looking to be a good time. Thank you for the reminder. I'm getting lots of good reminders from this thread!

 

Okay, Stage 2 for me whenever testing is over anddd I can donate to testing

 

Thank you, but I only ask for donations on projects for which there is no money to be made. I am treating this as a business, so I cannot rightly ask for donations. Thank you though

[dwolson2]

One step ahead of you I was the first person (on these forums) to identify the 5eat drain plug as M18x1.5, in order to put a Fumoto drain valve on it. I have not yet bought the plug, but it's looking to be a good time. Thank you for the reminder. I'm getting lots of good reminders from this thread!

 

There is a plug under there.... Man I need to get under there more....lol I just remembered the 15 million bolts...I hate Transmissions...

[ClimberDHexMods]

I too hate transmissions, but it's a love hate. They are so ridiculously complicated. But they make everything else on the car (engines, electronics, suspension) seem so easy afterwards! And removing a transmission on a Subaru has to be the hardest thing to do. An engine, close second. At least on an engine there is a hood to open so you don't need to contort as much.

 

The drain plug is not on the bottom of the pan, so once you zip off the dozen + 10mm bolts, you tip the pan slightly towards the plug to allow more to pour out. Then you pull the pan off completely and it rains ATF for an hour. Then once you release tension on the valve body bolts, another wave of fluid pours out. Then when you remove all these bolts and pull out the valve body, more fluid comes out if you tip it. It's not all that bad really, point is to be careful and methodical, and aways have a big drain pan underneath.

So then you're at your work table and you separate the valve body pieces, and more fluid comes out. Then you pull out the valves. More. fluid. again.

Edited April 18, 2011 by ClimberD@HexMods

[xero287]

i wish i lived in texas just so i could see this in the works lol

[RIPjeep2002]

interesting that they removed filters from the valve body. I wonder if they do the same thing with the 08-9 crowd like mine?

[joeblow]

Maybe I missed it in my reading, but will these be able to hold up to more power or just shift quicker? I picked up that faster shift times=less friction=cooler fluids/parts=longer life, but how would that relate to more power?

 

Definitely interested in a transgo kit for my 08 though when things work out.

[executor485]

Maybe I missed it in my reading, but will these be able to hold up to more power or just shift quicker? I picked up that faster shift times=less friction=cooler fluids/parts=longer life, but how would that relate to more power?

 

Definitely interested in a transgo kit for my 08 though when things work out.

ClimberD can jump in and clear it up if I'm wrong:

Changing a VB in itself wouldnt make the transmission hold more power, just like putting a short throw shifter on a 5MT wont make the clutch any stronger. The 5EAT is still bound by the laws of physics, and since you're not swapping out the clutch packs for the gears, it wont actually make the holding power any stronger. However, the maximum holding power will remain much longer, preserving the life of the clutch packs themselves.

[ClimberDHexMods]

interesting that they removed filters from the valve body. I wonder if they do the same thing with the 08-9 crowd like mine?

 

The filters shouldn't make a difference to VB behavior. They are not restrictions. They are only there as an added line of defense against things that shouldn't be in the ATF.

 

Maybe I missed it in my reading, but will these be able to hold up to more power or just shift quicker? I picked up that faster shift times=less friction=cooler fluids/parts=longer life, but how would that relate to more power?

 

In many ways, longevity and power holding are two sides of the same coin. The weak point for holding power with our 5eat is the slow ramp-up of shift engagement. Think of a manual transmission. Our stock VB acts as if you are slowly removing your foot off a MT clutch pedal. There are two mechanical ways to solve this problem. 1 is to increase line pressure, which will make things clamp faster and harder. 2 is to shorten the time the shift solenoids take to ramp up their opening of the line pressure flow. Ideally you want both root causes addressed for a more comprehensive outcome. Otherwise, if you just up the line pressure, then the line pressure by itself fights the slow ramp up speed of the clutch pack engagement. Sounds more appealing to me to have less overcompensation for lacking parts of the system, by reducing the parts that lack.

This is more complicated than I make it sound. IPT's mod only treats line pressure as far as I can tell. TransGo appears to take a more wholistic approach. The ideal way is to reprogram the TCU, then all this mechanical tinkering is far less important. But we can't, not really, not yet. Unless you go full standalone TCU, but no one wants to do that. So TransGo appears to be a much more sound way to solve the problem, as is evidenced by there being 400whp TransGo 350zs running around, but no solid performance from IPT VB 5eats running around near that power level.

 

Also, the question was asked, what does IPT do to their fully built transmissions? They throw the breakable parts (supposedly) in a cryo fridge aka a very very very cold freezer. Credible sources tell me this helps the wear characteristics, but not so much the strength. Then IPT adds 30%ish more frictions/steels in the major clutch packs. So when the modded valve body acts like a MT driver slowly releasing the clutch pedal instead of quickly, it is as if there is a 30% bigger clutch to grab on to 30% more flywheel, so it compensates for the lacking shift ramp-up.

 

I'm going to be VERY interested to see how FRKevin's 40r 5eat holds up with an IPT trans. I'm absolutely cheering for him, but realistically I bet the built 5eat won't hold up for very long. Not without a couple more small modifications.

 

By the way, IPT assured me that the valve body modification they do as a $769 service is the same service they do to their built transmissions. There are other clues that they are pricing WAYYY above what they need to to comfortably make a profit. Example: You send them a healthy 5eat to be built = $4500. You send them a broken 5eat with destroyed center differential = $4500. So in one case, they have to come up with an additional $1000 center differential, and in another case, they do nothing special and charge the same. They aren't dishonest, they are not hiding anything. They run what appears to be a profitable business. An entrepreneur would be so lucky. And if you buy an IPT built trans, you'll probably like it. As long as money isn't an issue. Or you have a Garrett 40r turbo. We'll see about that one. It will be the fastest and more insane 5eat ever, by a mile.

Edited April 18, 2011 by ClimberD@HexMods

[ClimberDHexMods]

ClimberD can jump in and clear it up if I'm wrong:

Changing a VB in itself wouldnt make the transmission hold more power, just like putting a short throw shifter on a 5MT wont make the clutch any stronger. The 5EAT is still bound by the laws of physics, and since you're not swapping out the clutch packs for the gears, it wont actually make the holding power any stronger. However, the maximum holding power will remain much longer, preserving the life of the clutch packs themselves.

 

Sorry, no, incorrect The VB is one of the most important factors in determining how much power the 5eat can hold. For 99% of people, the 5eat/RE5R05A is NOT limited by fragile parts (unless you launch) or by lacking quantity and/or quality of the frictions/steels. Those areas are all surprisingly stout. So is the torque converter. The valve body may also be very capable in stock form, if the TCU is programmed the right way. But since we can't hack the programming, and perhaps never will, we then must hack the mechanical valve body. With a standalone TCU, I could easily lower the line pressure values and you would hit X torque, say 300, and it would suddenly feel exactly like a slipping clutch. Or I could turn it way up and shorten shift duration close to zero or exactly to zero, and you would hold power well past the breaking point of the center diff. I would bet money on it And if I had the money to blow, I would do it just to prove a point to the MT meanies/doubters.

 

And if I get one of those many consulting jobs I've been applying for, I would have more than enough money to build the under-engine twinscroll S200SX 75-70 30psi street murderer I've stayed up so money nights thinking about. At which point we would all have out proof that the 5eat has the potential to handle a lot.

Edited April 18, 2011 by ClimberD@HexMods

[gerbler]

subscribedL

GT 5eat car year? 05

IPT VB mod already performed? No

Are you willing to pay close to but less than IPT prices (perhaps again) for a proper shift kit modification? YES

[underpowerd]

Quote:

Originally Posted by underpowerd http://legacygt.com/forums/skynetim/buttons/viewpost.gif

if you can build it to the standards you detail, you'll own the segment.

people here tend to get wet for ipt vb, because as you said, they're the basically only game in town.

 

i wouldn't worry about establishment v. individual; enthusiasts want pudding, period.

if you could offer a radically better performing product, at a competitive cost, with equal user install effort/downtime/reliability, i don't see any reason you couldn't become the go-to for what is already a fairly popular mod for power-hungry 5eat'ers.

 

 

I dont have a 5EAT, but I can attest to the high standards of ClimberD. If he says he's going to get something done and at standard X, you can be assured that it will meet or exceed that standard. While he may take a little longer on some aspects (ah... the external wastegate, ) it is assured to be professional and perfect. He obsesses about things you will never see and that provide 0 gain, so when it comes to things that actually help performance or that you'll see, well you know where this is going.

 

i meant my earlier post as an assurance, rather than any question of his work

CD knows (despite a memorable disagreement ) that he has my utmost respect for the mass of dedicated and productive effort he's displayed and shared here.

 

this one can really turn the 5eat on its ear, i'm sure i'd be an eventual consumer if this came to fruition -- i'm all for a success story here; for CD, and the community.

[lieutenantcolumbo]

LGT 5eat car year? 05

IPT VB mod already performed? Yes and No....had one very briefly and replaced it with the TransGo Kit.

Are you willing to pay close to but less than IPT prices (perhaps again) for a proper shift kit modification performed by fellow 5eat performance enthusiast ClimberD himself? Yes, if I hadn't already had mine upgraded to a TransGo in 02/10.

 

A big thanks to Dave for getting beyond the smoke and mirrors and bringing some transparency to this modification!

 

Based on my experience there's no comparison between the IPT valve body and the TransGo kit, so if Dave can deliver anything close to or better than what I have (which I am confident he will) there will be a lot more 5EAT Pride!

[joeblow]

How did you rig up a TransGo kit Columbo?

[lieutenantcolumbo]

It was really easy and simple. I did what I do best when it comes to cars, I just swiped my credit card at a local well respected transmission shop, and $5k later I had a race transmission rated for 450whp and the only known LGT with a modified TransGo 350Z shift kit (until Dave gets his installed).

 

Its all documented in other various threads (5EAT Pride, TransGo Guinea Pig, etc.) so just click on my screen name and look at posts 02/10 onward, so as not to derail Cimber's thread here.

[Tomkat1127]

Wow, I hope all works out well on the first couple of 05-07's that you do as commercial business. If all does go well I am sure the 5EAT crowd will beat your door down. Wonder if someone like Transgo or B&M will take notice after you beat them to market with a working solution.

Get to the 08+ ASAP.........

[Rick]

Climber you are my freaking Hero! I just wish you could have discovered all of this info on IPT before I gave them so much of my hard earned money.

[ClimberDHexMods]

It was really easy and simple. I did what I do best when it comes to cars, I just swiped my credit card at a local well respected transmission shop, and $5k later I had a race transmission rated for 450whp and the only known LGT with a modified TransGo 350Z shift kit (until Dave gets his installed).

 

Its all documented in other various threads (5EAT Pride, TransGo Guinea Pig, etc.) so just click on my screen name and look at posts 02/10 onward, so as not to derail Cimber's thread here.

 

Thanks to you I found out the 350Z kit could work on our cars! And your shop confirmed it! But they won't do it without a car present But that's what I'm for

[m sprank]

I was 30 minutes away from IPT when they did the VB. I was still living in NY at the time. I drove into the bay and parked it for them. Got to meet Ty and the crew that day. They dropped me off at the local mall and I watched a movie and hung out all day waiting for my car to be done.

 

The 08-09 VB is more like the VB assembly in a 4EAT than it is like the previous 5EAT's.

 

The resistor is to trick the ecu and stop it from throwing a code from the supposed higher line pressure. I am sure I got a spring and a resistor for $1200. I paid them for their labor too.

 

Honestly, I can not tell any difference after the install.

[Tomkat1127]

I was 30 minutes away from IPT when they did the VB. I was still living in NY at the time. I drove into the bay and parked it for them. Got to meet Ty and the crew that day. They dropped me off at the local mall and I watched a movie and hung out all day waiting for my car to be done.

 

The 08-09 VB is more like the VB assembly in a 4EAT than it is like the previous 5EAT's.

 

The resistor is to trick the ecu and stop it from throwing a code from the supposed higher line pressure. I am sure I got a spring and a resistor for $1200. I paid them for their labor too.

 

Honestly, I can not tell any difference after the install.

 

This thread is moving fast...

I can see and believe the resistor is needed for the 08+ cars due to the upgraded Can Bus system is probably reporting on lots more PID's then the 05-07 OBII cars.

I'm not rich and can not afford a 5K race tranny (ever) on top of the performance parts cost, just to get my car to hold 300HP+ (my goal). Everything I will do, is researched one piece at a time and is paid for in the same way. If it can be installed by itself, then it would be. If enough proof is shown to me and it can be done for under $1K then the door is open for me

[Yebbey]

depending on cost, i'm probably up for this. i'd probably drive up and watch the magic in person. The only thing i wonder is, if at 94k miles, if the tranny is to the point of no return already.

[ClimberDHexMods]

You would know if your trans was already worn. It would behave like it shouldn't.

[dwolson2]

Thanks to you I found out the 350Z kit could work on our cars! And your shop confirmed it! But they won't do it without a car present But that's what I'm for

I actually have offered my car more than once, but they gave me a "we will call you when we need you" response. Kind of ticks me off, that 1. I am willing to loose my car for a few weeks and 2. it seems like they are just giving me the run around. Unless you can talk with them and change thier mind....lol

[ClimberDHexMods]

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

[Yebbey]

I suppose you're right. it seems to be working right.

[ClimberDHexMods]

I suppose you're right. it seems to be working right.

 

At any rate, if you do decide you want some trans work done by me, we'll just put your car on ramps, zip off the pan and VB, drink a couple sodas as we modify it, and put it back. Unlike last time you came by, I might have to charge you a little for the physical uninstall/reinstall because I just don't have the free time I use to, but nothing as crazy as regular shop prices.

 

 

BTW, separately, I suspect PART of the demand for this service will be driven by desire to FEEL more performance. Kind of like how people change brake hardware other than pads to get much better pedal feel, though 95% of people don't actually NEED it. Nonetheless, people say it is well worth a brake upgrade if only for the feel. My IPT VB was satisfactory at <300hp, probably would have kept the trans alive for the long haul if I didn't already have a worn clutch pack. But the feeling of the shifting never came close to the hype. High power downshifts made me very nervous. I really tried to make myself believe it was a great mod, but as the years went by I started getting really frustrated at almost every other "sporty" car on the road shifting better than my IPT VB (even my non-sporty 1990 Lexus LS400 included) People have done 400rwhp on that trans with stock trans tune.

 

But it's all speculation until I feel it for myself. I'll take Executor485 for a ride after. If it isn't so good, he will most certainly say so!

Edited April 19, 2011 by ClimberD@HexMods