Valve Body Mods, Giant Leaps Forward!!!

[.blackgt.]

LGT 5eat car year? 08

IPT VB mod already performed? No

Are you willing to pay close to but less than IPT prices for a proper shift kit modification performed by fellow 5eat performance enthusiast ClimberD himself? I am on the east coast, so yes to the first part of the question, but would be unable to allow you to install.

[RIPjeep2002]

level 10 has also destroyed some transmissions in the subaru community. I had the valve body by IPT before all this came about 2 years ago, and now i regret spending that money for that spring. I am at stage 2 for a year now, 12k miles, and no issues. But I also don't beat on it. Am waiting for this transgo kit to come out. Prob would use EFI Logics to do the install.

[DHracer]

Is there any prices out yet for the transco kit?

[ClimberDHexMods]

I spent several hours last night (while watching that stupid Angelina Jolie movie 'Salt') tracing the 350Z valve body. It's going to be a pain in the butt because there are two versions of the top valve body half. They direct fluid differently. But I am making slow/steady progress. Usually something stops being as impressive once you develop an understanding of it, but valve bodies are FAR more impressive to me now than when I started. The fact that people can engineer this type of thing just blows my mind. That these types of things could be designed and made 30 years ago, is beyond jaw-dropping.

 

For the electronics guys out there, think of a valve body as a jumbled set of relays, resistors and capacitors. Just instead of electric current, it's hydraulic current.

The solenoids are the magnetic switches in the relays. These solenoids use very little fluid to move valves. Some of the solenoids send fluid through a passageway that has a restrictor plate the size of a pinhole (like a resistor).

These valves are the switches within the relays. They are opened or closed with little energy, and they control significant amounts of fluid flow (in most cases). The shift valves, when in their 'closed circuit' flowing position, will direct fluid from the fluid pump up to the clutch packs, clamping them and causing certain gear ratios to be achieved.

 

There are functions within the valve body that perform accumulator duties, which basically dampens a gear change.

 

There is a lot more to it than that. Just as an electronics schematic can become very complicated, so do these valve bodies. There are 2 or 3 valves per solenoid, if you want to play averages. There is a list of what each valve is named, but there is no diagram to reference the name to the location of each valve. So that is what I am figuring out right now. The good news is all the RE5R05A variants including the 5eat use the same assortment of valves (so far as I have seen), so once I define or map each valve's function, it should be fairly simple to figure out the other valve bodies.

 

Interestingly, there are 2 passageways that feed the direct clutch. Normally it's just one per clutch patch. One feeds pressure to the inside of the piston, one to the outside of the piston. The 350Z TransGo instructions say to tap in a restrictor orifice into the small side direct clutch actuator, which serves the function of reducing fluid flow to actuate the direct clutch. In short, TransGo took direct action to soften engagement of the direct clutch, which is what makes the familiar shift shock from 1st to 2nd in some cases. It also would soften downshifting from 5th to 4th, but that is far less of a concern. In doing their modifications, they probably upped pressures and flows to many parts of the transmission such that it was not proportional to all clutches, and had to be lessened at the direct clutch to make everything reasonably balanced.

[ClimberDHexMods]

Is there any prices out yet for the transco kit?

 

They usually sell for $250 shipped, but there isn't a 5eat-specific kit out yet.

[ean611]

I spent several hours last night (while watching that stupid Angelina Jolie movie 'Salt') tracing the 350Z valve body. It's going to be a pain in the butt because there are two versions of the top valve body half. They direct fluid differently. But I am making slow/steady progress. Usually something stops being as impressive once you develop an understanding of it, but valve bodies are FAR more impressive to me now than when I started. The fact that people can engineer this type of thing just blows my mind. That these types of things could be designed and made 30 years ago, is beyond jaw-dropping.

 

For the electronics guys out there, think of a valve body as a jumbled set of relays, resistors and capacitors. Just instead of electric current, it's hydraulic current.

The solenoids are the magnetic switches in the relays. These solenoids use very little fluid to move valves. Some of the solenoids send fluid through a passageway that has a restrictor plate the size of a pinhole (like a resistor).

These valves are the switches within the relays. They are opened or closed with little energy, and they control significant amounts of fluid flow (in most cases). The shift valves, when in their 'closed circuit' flowing position, will direct fluid from the fluid pump up to the clutch packs, clamping them and causing certain gear ratios to be achieved.

 

There are functions within the valve body that perform accumulator duties, which basically dampens a gear change.

 

There is a lot more to it than that. Just as an electronics schematic can become very complicated, so do these valve bodies. There are 2 or 3 valves per solenoid, if you want to play averages. There is a list of what each valve is named, but there is no diagram to reference the name to the location of each valve. So that is what I am figuring out right now. The good news is all the RE5R05A variants including the 5eat use the same assortment of valves (so far as I have seen), so once I define or map each valve's function, it should be fairly simple to figure out the other valve bodies.

 

Interestingly, there are 2 passageways that feed the direct clutch. Normally it's just one per clutch patch. One feeds pressure to the inside of the piston, one to the outside of the piston. The 350Z TransGo instructions say to tap in a restrictor orifice into the small side direct clutch actuator, which serves the function of reducing fluid flow to actuate the direct clutch. In short, TransGo took direct action to soften engagement of the direct clutch, which is what makes the familiar shift shock from 1st to 2nd in some cases. It also would soften downshifting from 5th to 4th, but that is far less of a concern. In doing their modifications, they probably upped pressures and flows to many parts of the transmission such that it was not proportional to all clutches, and had to be lessened at the direct clutch to make everything reasonably balanced.

 

So to follow this, if drilling the holes makes up-shifting "better" but comes with an associated negative on another down-shift....wouldn't it make sense to not drill and just use the physical parts? Maybe that's a dumb question?

[ClimberDHexMods]

I don't know enough to answer that with any sort of authority. Maybe I can later. There are many drill points, of varying sizes, so to generalize all or nothing is probably no good. But I have an odd hunch that if you only do the reversible parts of the TransGo mod, you'll be very happy with the outcome. You can always go back in later and drill on your own, and you will know how to after witnessing the process and asking questions the first time. Does that answer your question well enough for now?

[ean611]

yes, as good as we'll get until we learn more.

[itsme]

yes, as good as we'll get until we learn more.

 

I had spots drill on my TH350 VB and even have the part the holds the clutch packs(I forget the name) to let fluid move away from cluthes quicker for faster shifts. On of that effected downshifts.

[ClimberDHexMods]

On the RE5R05A VBs the fluid circuits for piston actuation switch from pressure to drain (plus a little tiny inconsequential bit would get by the piston seals to keep them lubricated). Most of the transmission doesn't know whether you are upshifting or downshifting, it just switches hydraulic circuits, so some things engage and other things disengage. Either way of all the things to focus on it's one of the least consequential. You do what you need to to achieve quick shifts and strong shifts and call it a day. Frank_ster did mention the check balls can serve the purpose of slower engagement and quicker disengagement, but I'm still digging to see what exactly does what. I also dropped a check ball and haven't found it yet, so it would be a bonus to find out I don't need it... eh I'm still a total noob relative to the folks who engineer these things. It's a great mental exercise to try to comprehend it all. One day (hopefully soon) I hope to know it like the back of my hand. Though it may be a hand with 100 fingers all pointing random directions.

[ean611]

This is all great info.

 

Ideally, I'll have enough info to know where to drill on mine when I get the parts.

[Mortal2None]

Thanks! I appreciate the effort!

 

 

I used to work with someone who is now one of the VP's at Transtar so hopefuly he'll respond to my email and can help with some connections for shop recommendations, parts, and tech info. He was a great guy back in the day so hopefully I'll get a response tomorrow.

 

CD,

 

If things work out i'll give you his contact info and you can work with him or whoever he comes up with. (Hopefully a Jatco/5EAT Guru! one can dream right? )

[ClimberDHexMods]

I'm always interested in talking with people who know what they're doing.

 

Truth is all anyone needs to do is go on yelp or google reviews or something like that, type in Transmission Shop, and call the ones the have 20 ratings averaging 4.5 stars. These things are rocket science only to those who know nothing about rockets. To a professional trans rebuilder, installation of a kit (once released) would be an easy walk in the park. It's not like getting an engine rebuild where you need to find someone who does everything darn near perfectly.

[Mortal2None]

I'm hoping to find out the names of the places that have Trans Tech's that are the ones calling out the manufacturers on innovations, defects, improvements, etc. Those are the shops you want to use for any kind of custom work. Hopefully something will come of it and if not it was worth a try. I want to get my tranny done this year.

[Tomkat1127]

I'm always interested in talking with people who know what they're doing.

 

Truth is all anyone needs to do is go on yelp or google reviews or something like that, type in Transmission Shop, and call the ones the have 20 ratings averaging 4.5 stars. These things are rocket science only to those who know nothing about rockets. To a professional trans rebuilder, installation of a kit (once released) would be an easy walk in the park. It's not like getting an engine rebuild where you need to find someone who does everything darn near perfectly.

 

Funny ain't it? How once something is "familiar" then all the scariness goes away. I deal with nuclear sizing and safety all day long but wouldn't touch the internals of more than a Turbo350/400 automatic or a C4/6 auto.

 

I disagree on the engine builder thing. I think an engine builder can get away with a little more sloppiness sometimes.

[Mortal2None]

Funny ain't it? How once something is "familiar" then all the scariness goes away. I deal with nuclear sizing and safety all day long but wouldn't touch the internals of more than a Turbo350/400 automatic or a C4/6 auto.

 

I disagree on the engine builder thing. I think an engine builder can get away with a little more sloppiness sometimes.

 

 

They both have to be near perfect. Just that on modern day trannys there is a lot more components that they have to be near perfect on. (These are not our Grandpas TH400's or PG/TF's)

 

The further off the mark the assembler is correlates to how long the engine/tranny will last.

 

Anything nuclear sounds like a "fun" day job.

[Tomkat1127]

They both have to be near perfect. Just that on modern day trannys there is a lot more components that they have to be near perfect on.

 

Exactly, that's my problem with them, too many little components. If I can't smack it with my BFH, then I don't know what to do. Actually, I could do it it, if I wanted too.

 

Anything nuclear sounds like a "fun" day job.

 

Nah, it just sounds more "glamorous" then it really is. Still fun when people ask where do you work. My response "OH, I just work for a small engineering company designing and selling nuclear devices for industrial measurement uses". There eyes usually widen and you can tell they have no clue what it is we do, but to them since all radiation is bad and mysterious then I can play it up.

 

OK, sorry a little off-track, back to your regularly scheduled VB thread....

Edited April 26, 2011 by Tomkat1127
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[ClimberDHexMods]

Traced 95% of the Low Coast Brake circuit on the 350Z kit. It's a weird one since it's fed differently than other solenoids/clutches. TransGo has a restrictor hole drilled between the LCB valves (2 of them) and the clutch itself. No springs on it (no surprise), it doesn't get more load than stock when you modify your car, unless you raise engine compression significantly

 

Anyways TransGo also drills between a LCB valve and the LCB pressure switch (tells the TCU whether the LCB valve/solenoid is working properly). I will have to do some logging to figure this out. It would help if there was the tiniest thread of information on these fancy pressure switches. Do they bleed or are they sealed? More testing.

 

All in all, I have so much time tied up in this, and have so much more time needing to be spent, there's no way I'm making any financial profit or worthwhile gain from this. So I have no qualms charging for the fruits of my labor, whatever they may be. But prices will still be super competitive, that's how I do things.

[subi_snipe223]

LGT 5eat car year? 05 06 07 08 09

IPT VB mod already performed? Yes or No

Are you willing to pay close to but less than IPT prices (perhaps again) for a proper shift kit modification performed by fellow 5eat performance enthusiast ClimberD himself? Yezir!

 

I want to install an 18G + injectors next year. But I doubt the tranny will hold it for long. If you can keep the down time under a week, and the cost under $500, I'm in.

 

FANTASIC enginner BTW. I'm an HVAC design engineer and I'm fascinated by the work you've done. Props my good man. Props.

[ClimberDHexMods]

A TransGo kit for the 05-07 LGTs and OBXTs is coming to market at some point, independent of myself. Got to love competition.

 

Due to some friendly encouragement, I have aspirations now of releasing my own kits at some point, the goal in doing so would be to beat the TransGo kit's pricing by a significant amount. But we will see. For now I'm continuing to reverse engineer these things. I am also able to modify valve bodies through whatever methods are available, for anyone, at competitive prices. So when TransGo eventually releases their LGT kit, I can install that for folks. When I release my own kit(s), I can install those as well.

 

It sounds like the IPT style VB mod has lost all its steam. Can't say I'm terribly surprised. Even at $250 installed, no one has been asking me for it...

[Deadleave]

any idea on cost of transgo vs yours ? or too early to speculate

[ClimberDHexMods]

Never too early to speculate but too early to be right. TransGo usually prices their kits at around $250 shipped through their distributors, but the distributors can and do up the price to much higher levels, sometimes.

 

I aim to sell a kit at half of the TransGo price. The kits themselves aren't hard to create. The trouble is getting them right, proper selection and placement of each piece.

[ean611]

Yeah, and the detail about the differences for the 08-09. That's going to be interesting to figure out.

[ClimberDHexMods]

Yeah, and the detail about the differences for the 08-09. That's going to be interesting to figure out.

 

Yeah, sorry bud, it's not. I was on the phone with the TransGo guy and asked him if he was aware of the differences between the 07 and 08 valve bodies. He didn't want to talk about it. I was kind of shocked by that... and look where it got him. He has no idea there's a difference between 05 and 09. A SIGNIFICANT difference. Fortunately he has you to help him along.

 

You can tell him that the 08+ trannys eliminate the Low Coast Brake solenoid and clutch, instead deferring to direct control of the Forward Brake, so the control logic of the transmission and valve body is going to be DIFFERENT. He needs to go back to the drawing board on at least some portion of it. Not to mention they rearranged the 08 valve body in an entirely different way. So the 05-07 is an apple, and the 08-09 is an orange. They're both fruit, but come on...

Edited April 30, 2011 by ClimberD@HexMods

[RIPjeep2002]

has the trans go kit arrived yet ean?