DIY 5EAT Transmission Rebuild

[Mortal2None]

Notice something about this price? https://www.makcotransmissionparts.com/63002B.html

 

It's for real, I have one on the table now.

 

 

Nice find!

[tailgatewagon]

maybe when your done you could put together a parts list of things if a guy was going to diy overhaul. i would gladly pay a fee for your leg work or put togher a vb and overhaul kit. anyway awsome work,

[ean611]

Notice something about this price? https://www.makcotransmissionparts.com/63002B.html

 

It's for real, I have one on the table now.

 

to ask a dumb question, does this have the clutch packs?

 

Great find!

 

(If this does have the clutch packs this makes finding a local re builder cheap)

[ClimberDHexMods]

It doesn't include frictions or steels or molded pistons. You can source all that separately as needed, most of it locally.

This linked part of the kit is normally $200.

Complete kits are normally $400.

Or get the same complete thing from IPT for $800.

[ClimberDHexMods]

For those of you who want to add strength to your center diff, http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/5eat-center-differential-bearings-group-purchase-160983.html

[ClimberDHexMods]

Here is the summary of the wear I've found in my 5eat.

 

Damage was caused in part by going stage two with a completely stock trans several years ago. It worsened as I progressed through reflashes of my Stage 3 20G Infamous1 tune. More on these things to follow.

 

To save key strokes, note that every single friction (aka "clutch" on this forum) is at least partially blackened. They start off dark brown or tan. Some burned worse than others. Pics to follow later.

 

Front Brake: Frictions burned, every steel including retaining plate has burn marks. This entire clutch pack is a replace, except the snap ring

This front brake worries me... it appears to be severely lacking in friction surface area to any other clutch pack. The Nissans get this in the form of a big band, which I have figured from other applications can hold a lot more than two dinky frictions the Subaru 5eat gets. There is no immediately clear way to add a layer of friction/steel.

 

Input Clutch: Frictions burned, all steel but the outside ones are burned, but in a weird way where they have imprinted the venting shape of the frictions. Leaning towards replacing this entire clutch pack (steels and frictions) except the two outside steels.

 

Direct Clutch: Frictions are slightly burned, all steels are fine! Still going to replace the frictions.

 

High, Low & Reverse Clutch: This piece of crap... all 4 frictions are burned, and all steels are burned as well. This entire clutch pack except the retaining plate needs to be replaced.

 

Reverse Brake: Fine.

 

Forward Brake: A little more wear than expected considering it does nothing major, but is basically fine.

 

Low Coast Brake: Fine. The newest looking of any. Says a lot about how much time I spend in 1st or 2nd sport mode.

 

Transfer Clutch: This clutch pack is the darkest and had the most friction material gunk on it of any clutch pack, but its purpose is to slip, a lot, so this isn't a big surprise. It's getting replaced since I don't want an excuse to have to open it back up later.

 

Plans for rebuild: The Input, Direct, and HL&R clutch packs are getting hopefully 2 new frictions and steels each, added on to what is normally there courtesy of a bit of lathe work. I'm already in, and I don't want to do this again, so it looks like I'm going full tilt. This trans will be far more stout than any built trans I'm aware of once I'm done with it. It shouldn't cost any more than $500 either, since all the labor except lathing is to be done by myself or with the help of a local friend. $500 is on the high side, but all the little things sure add up...

 

Special thanks to Frank_ster for helping me along this project. Let me know if you figure out a way to add a friction/steel to the front brake. Hopefully this was just a fluke that will not be repeated with care and better valve body, but if not, all I can think of to make it last longer is an aftermarket TCU.

[rubberman]

Excellent progress ClimberD! I know that you are busy, but any chance of getting some pictures of the various assemblies, clutch plate burn patterns, and front brake component area? Maybe with some addtl eyes reviewing that front brake setup we can come up with some ideas for improvements...

I don't know much about the clutch plate wear or burn patterns, but maybe we can figure out the nature/mechanism of the excessive heat (ie too high torque load & lots of slip or is it a lack of fluid coverage / temp control, or maybe even if the burn patterns are irregular in shape could it actually begin to chatter due to deflection / torquing of the assy?)

Also, have you come across any info on various friction plate materials? Just wondered since if stage 3 torque has overloaded the stock frictions then maybe there's a way to optimize with a slightly more aggressive friction material?

If it comes down to manpower for research, then myself and others I'm sure would be glad to help. With some details on those steel & friction plates, I can make some calls to try and dig up some info directly from the mfg (or any component for that matter).

[rao]

Nice progress

[fishbone]

ClimberD: so if I am seeing a black powder coated on the inside of the ATF filter, this is an indication that most likely my clutches have gone dark (at least partially) due to wear as you've indicated? Can't think of it being anything else. The powder is very subtle and in not any significant amount, but it is there and it is black, looks like charcoal.

Have you by chance taken a look into your ATF filter?

[ClimberDHexMods]

That black powder in the ATF is used clutch pack material. It by itself does not indicate a problem unless you have a lot of it. Really IMO you don't have any sort of problem unless it manifests in the form of slipping or the WOT violent chattering I had, or something else associated with driveability. Like a MT clutch, these clutch packs are designed to wear. The stock TCU likes to use up that material with slow engagement of clutch packs. But you would need a real professional to gauge whether the wear is excessive.

 

I have pics of many things including burned steels and friction discoloration. Putting them up will take a little time. Will do that later.

 

If you want to research friction material or steel quality, go crazy. I have not researched steels at all. My limited research of frictions, involving forum reviews of American car high hp drag racers says Borg Warner makes the best friction material, by far. I do not know how any other brands or OEM rank up to eachother, and I do not know which company is the OEM friction manufacturer for Jatco. One good shop I talked to was surprised I could not find BW brand rebuild kits, as they say that's what they used for a 5eat. If you can find that, I'll be very happy. As for today, I need to get to work (job).

 

I have not checked my ATF filter recently. It was changed a while ago, but I didn't pay attention then.

 

Edit: I do not know to what extent the blackening of frictions is normal. They're basically ATF sponges rubbing against steel plates. I hear Borg Warner frictions soak up a lot more ATF than competitor material.

[utc_pyro]

Wow, good job and info here! It'd be quite nice to have a rebuild kit were we can handle a lot of power. Stage 2.5 feels slow now.

 

You're inspiring me to go pull that test TCU out and start probing the RTD/NDB bus.

[ClimberDHexMods]

Wow, good job and info here! It'd be quite nice to have a rebuild kit were we can handle a lot of power. Stage 2.5 feels slow now.

 

You're inspiring me to go pull that test TCU out and start probing the RTD/NDB bus.

 

Please do, no one can really afford an aftermarket PCS TCU

[ClimberDHexMods]

I'm beginning to think there really is no Borg Warner frictions kit. Called a different distributor, and again no record it existing even as RE5R05A.

[ClimberDHexMods]

Sharing my order email with TransGo

 

Hi XXXXX,

 

Here's the complete list, for 2005 Subaru Legacy GT 5eat frictions/steels only...

 

Frictions, custom list since we're lathing down pistons for extra room:

 

1 complete Frictions Only kit, No seals or gaskets, just frictions. This particular case comes stock with 6 Input frictions (not 5), and 4 transfer case frictions (not 3).

In addition, I need these extra frictions added on:

+2 Input frictions

+2 HighLow&Rev frictions

+2 Direct frictions.

 

So that will make for 8 total Input frictions, 7 total Direct frictions, 6 total HighLow&Rev frictions.

 

For steels, I need the following:

2 Front steels

7 Input steels

6 HighLow&Rev steels

2 Direct steels

3 Transfer steels

 

Thanks for all your help on this odd build. Let me know what you want to do for credit card payment.

 

Edit: This order came to $221.84, plus a delivery charge later.

$114 of that was for the frictions kit. Individual steels are like $3 each from Transgo, or like $15 from Subaru

 

Sucks I could have opened up my old spare 5eat and probably used those steels, but I don't have the space in my current housing situation to double volume taken up by disassembled and stored transmission innards. Not until I get this rebuild project back in the car.

[ClimberDHexMods]

On a completely different note, Frank_ster mentioned that one could design entirely new drums in a CAD program. These drums would allow for a LOT more frictions/steels, like many companies already make for the 4L60E and other uber popular build transmissions. But neither of us really thinks this is necessary unless someone comes along with 700whp and just can't get the clutch packs to hold any other way.

[rubberman]

Any updates on this project? I saw the nasioc thread update on the successful front LSD install, so does this mean that you went ahead with the drum/piston mods to change the number of clutch pack frictions / steels?

[ClimberDHexMods]

I have this on hold for now. I put the front TBD in the stock 5eat, with bulletproof'd center diff. There is no need for me to have a built 5eat with my Hex F1 valve body. Perhaps this will change with more power later. But for now, no point. It is easy enough to do later.

[KoukiS14]

I spent part of the day working up parts interchange between 5EAT and RE5R05A clutches in the Alto catalog.

 

Input clutches: Using Red Eagle frictions (174746-152) and Kolene steels (174701K170), 1 friction and 1 steel can be added by milling down the pressure plate/retaining plate by .57mm. Any machine shop could do that in about 15 minutes and less than $25. The replacements are "Case-Saver" sized, meaning they're slightly larger OD to prevent wear to the internal drum face.

 

Direct clutches: Using Reds (174740-150)/Kolenes (174711K150), you can add 2 frictions and 2 steels, completely drop-in, with no machining. These are both "Case-Saver" sized as well.

 

Hi-Lo Reverse clutches: Reds (174742-160)/Kolenes (174703AD240) are available to replace the OEM clutches, but no added frictions or steels without more extensive machining.

 

That would be a good path for a rebuild upgrade. You'd get 40% or more holding capacity on the direct, a 20% or more on the input, and whatever extra holding power and durability the Red Eagles and Kolenes offer over the OEM pieces on the Hi-Lo Reverse.

[ClimberDHexMods]

Very nice. I did a similar cross-compatibility check but with other catalogs. Those kits that add extra layers without machining, be careful. The RE5R05A has one extra layer in some clutch packs, so you stand to throw off final tolerances with the mismatch of layer count. That is why in my other thread I have settled on machining. I know a great little machine shop locally that will machine the drums to whatever I want, with absolute precision. Consider doing that to allow you great tolerance results, as a supplement to whatever kit you choose. Please keep us updated!

[Cyclozene]

Watching!

 

Still have to read over all the posts but would you do it again or take it somewhere to have it done and how much money did you save?

[ClimberDHexMods]

I never finished it, so I don't know how it would have turned out, and even then the real test is 150,000+ miles. But I got far enough and deep enough to understand and see exactly where I was going. It's a very modular system, pieces just stack on top of eachother for the most part. There are lots of related videos on youtube, a few of which show in great detail how to take apart clutch pack drums. There is great inconsistency on what the best clutch pack tolerances are. I spent a lot of time looking at the 350Z rebuilds, where there are like 3 or 4 sets of tolerances, each different. If you get the tolerances wrong, it's all coming out and apart again. I would totally do it myself any day if needed. I won't be buying a used healthy replacement again. Not as fun. But putting a Hex F1 in my 5eat has basically removed any and all need for me to finish my rebuild. I'll get around to it. I have like 4 transmissions sitting around in my garage space.

 

People love to freak out about rebuilding transmissions, but at least IMO the 5eat is very exact. You do everything exactly by the book after immersing yourself in the full range of best practices, and you're golden. Maybe it's just me. I thrive on formulas and that sort of thing. I do not do well with art, things that are gray by nature. So for me the 5eat is a giant lego deal. For each part of its assembly, an exact process to follow. Be warned, some of the rebuild bits I got are the wrong thickness, just enough to probably cause a problem. This would be solved by machining down the piston and adding another layer of friction/steel, using the machining/lathing amount to nail the tolerance. So you get more layers and better tolerances in the same move. Be prepared for that. Technicians have their own tricks for making up the tolerances, some of them sound pretty nuts. I like my way the best

[KoukiS14]

I've found myself forced to make progress on this, since my trans sounded the whine of death on Tuesday and gave up the ghost on Wednesday.

 

The input PowerPack drops right in, with spot on clearance per Alto of 1.3-1.4mm with 7 clutch pairs. Alto specs 1.15-1.65mm. No machining necessary and it adds 1 clutch pair.

 

The direct clutch, which should have been a 2 clutch pair upgrade with no machining, has zero clearance with the snap ring installed. I ordered a thinner snap ring. I may either machine the piston 1.15mm or take 0.95mm off of the pressure plate with the the 0.2mm thinner snap ring to hit 1.15mm clearance. I'm undecided on which way to go, but it's easier to machine the pressure plate.

 

The Kolene steels for the Hi/Lo/Reverse are a no go. The tooth width is wider, intended for the stamped steel drums rather than our aluminum drums. I've ordered stock steels. The clearance here is loose at 2.5mm. Should be 1.8 to 2.2mm per Subaru. I'm machining the piston 3.3mm and adding a single clutch pair to hit 1.8mm clearance.

 

I'm still not quite decided on whether I may tighten up the clearances a little here and there. I may take the Hi/Lo/Reverse down to 1.5mm, and the direct closer to 0.8 to 1.0mm, since stock spec is 0.6-1.0mm. We'll see.

 

I'll update next week after some more progress hopefully. Frank_ster is shipping diff bushings and the TransGo valve body mods went smoothly, thanks in part to ClimberD. Wish me luck.

 

I spent part of the day working up parts interchange between 5EAT and RE5R05A clutches in the Alto catalog.

 

Input clutches: Using Red Eagle frictions (174746-152) and Kolene steels (174701K170), 1 friction and 1 steel can be added by milling down the pressure plate/retaining plate by .57mm. Any machine shop could do that in about 15 minutes and less than $25. The replacements are "Case-Saver" sized, meaning they're slightly larger OD to prevent wear to the internal drum face.

 

Direct clutches: Using Reds (174740-150)/Kolenes (174711K150), you can add 2 frictions and 2 steels, completely drop-in, with no machining. These are both "Case-Saver" sized as well.

 

Hi-Lo Reverse clutches: Reds (174742-160)/Kolenes (174703AD240) are available to replace the OEM clutches, but no added frictions or steels without more extensive machining.

 

That would be a good path for a rebuild upgrade. You'd get 40% or more holding capacity on the direct, a 20% or more on the input, and whatever extra holding power and durability the Red Eagles and Kolenes offer over the OEM pieces on the Hi-Lo Reverse.

[frank_ster]

if you could list the part numbers and prices of the clutch packs you would sugest for the rest of us that would be great

[KoukiS14]

Quantity - Alto Part - Description - Cost

1 - 174756 - PowerPack Input clutch - $116

No machining for 7 clutches, lathe piston for 8 clutches. Adds 1 or 2 clutch pairs.

1 - 174757 - PowerPack Direct clutch - $121

Lathe piston for 8 clutches. Adds 2 clutch pairs.

4-5 - 174742-160 - Hi/Lo/Rev Red Eagle frictions - $27

4-5 - 174703-240 - Hi/Lo/Rev stock steels - $21

Machine piston for 5 clutches. Optionally use thinner custom steels to fit 6 clutch pairs. Adds 1 or 2 clutch pairs.

5 - 174748-155 - Forward Red Eagle frictions - $24

5 - 174709-200 - Forward stock steels - $24

2 - 135710-160 - Front Brake stock frictions - $13

2 - 135711-280 - Front Brake stock steels - $16

Use 3.4mm retaining plate, part number 31567AB130 and custom thinner steels for 3 clutch pairs.

5 - 174704-170 - Reverse Brake stock friction - $25

5 - 174705-200 - Reverse Brake stock steels - $25

3 - 174746A160 - Low Coast Red Eagle frictions - $15

3 - 174707-200 - Low Coast stock steels - $9

4 - 075711K160 - Transfer clutch Kolene steel - $21

4 - 075720-180 - Transfer clutch tan friction - $18

1 - 135802 - 5EAT overhaul kit with pistons - $282

1 - TransGo 5EAT-HD2 or RE5R05A-HD2 - valve body shift kit - $230

Of course, there are some other associated part required for the rebuild, like new filters, fluids, etc, but the cost for the parts listed here, which is a full rebuild plus the valve body kit is $987. Call it $1,000 in parts when it's done. Note that all of those prices are wholesale and updated as of 2/11/13.

 

Eventually I'd like to offer rebuild service and kits with a few different options, but I'm not quite there yet.

[frank_ster]

^ thats great thanks for posting that !