rao Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 The V-6 Mustang is faster around the track than the STI So far no one has any real explanation for why Subarus are the fastest cars in the world but do not perform very well on a road course. I am starting to wonder if it is possible that Subarus may not be the fastest cars in the world Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilT Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 The Nissan GTR holds that title, so Subaru can only claim to be the second fastest car in the world Double Award Winning Legacy GT Wagon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoplightAssassin Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Why even bother with the V6? Even if it does make good power, the Mustang is not an outrageously expensive car so why not get the big stick 5.0L V8 with the track pack? Brembo brakes, 3.73:1 rear end gears, a 6 speed manual, a tight suspension,..... not to mention 412hp and 390lb-ft all for a pretty reasonable price. I don't think there is a track pack for the V8, just optional Brembos and your choice of rear. The Track Package for the V6 includes the GT suspension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Power6 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Why even bother with the V6? Even if it does make good power, the Mustang is not an outrageously expensive car so why not get the big stick 5.0L V8 with the track pack? Brembo brakes, 3.73:1 rear end gears, a 6 speed manual, a tight suspension,..... not to mention 412hp and 390lb-ft all for a pretty reasonable price. I don't think he was going to buy one, just drive it to compare. I was curious about the cheapest track worthy 5.0, so I priced out the Mustang. The only way to stay cheap is to get the non-premium which looks ok, just not as nice interior, no sync, and not a lot of stuff that comes on a Subaru. With Brembos, 3.73s and the front air-dam (compatible with Ford Racing brake cooling kit) it is like 33k. That's not bad, but not cheap either. Most people are going to want a few toys, you have to step up to the premium for that. I would buy the stripper, and rip out the seats and put some decent Recaros in there and have a sweet toy. Ford Racing has some nice suspension packages too. Until then I need my hatchback and AWD, someday I can have a Mustang... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sydtron Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 In short? Poor suspension design. Their strut design is piss poor, and the rear suspension on the cars up until recently was far less than compliant. Putting any power down through the front wheels isn't exactly ideal with struts as well. Turning or having suspension travel is bad for struts as well since generally they add positive camber instead of negative camber. The harder the suspension works, the less grip it allows for. If you look at the cars at the top of the lists, you'll see more with wishbone setups on each end and less with econobox suspensions. Even the ones with struts toward the top of the list come from companies with bonafide racing pedigree, enough so that they spend the money to keep the struts competitive. If you want to be fast on the track, drive a car with a suspension setup that belongs on a sports car or at least drive a car from a manufacturer that has a racing pedigree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_sharp Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I don't think he was going to buy one, just drive it to compare. I was curious about the cheapest track worthy 5.0, so I priced out the Mustang. The only way to stay cheap is to get the non-premium which looks ok, just not as nice interior, no sync, and not a lot of stuff that comes on a Subaru. With Brembos, 3.73s and the front air-dam (compatible with Ford Racing brake cooling kit) it is like 33k. That's not bad, but not cheap either. Most people are going to want a few toys, you have to step up to the premium for that. I would buy the stripper, and rip out the seats and put some decent Recaros in there and have a sweet toy. Ford Racing has some nice suspension packages too. Until then I need my hatchback and AWD, someday I can have a Mustang... Yes, you are correct. I fully believe that the V8 could lap the track faster than an STi, I don't really want to test drive the 5.0 b/c I'm sure it will make me slightly sad and want to turbo a turbo swap asap. What I don't believe is the V6 can beat the STi. I just want test drive it so I can see whether its all hype or not. I have a feeling the V6 will pull just as hard in a straight line, but the suspension is what I'm really interested in. I watched some MT videos of the camero v6, and mustang v6 and they looked like boats rocking around when they tried to lap a track. I also agree with your point about pricing. The GT is at a strange pricing point. For the money, you won't get better performance, but it seems to be lacking a lot of standard features that other cars in the same price range offer. In order to get those features or to get all of the items you want, the price gets a bit too high, IMO. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustangendsley Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Road track driving and racing is 90% driver and 10% car. Subaru's do really well on the tracks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoplightAssassin Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Road track driving and racing is 90% driver and 10% car. Subaru's do really well on the tracks. You missed the entire point of the article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I don't think there is a track pack for the V8, just optional Brembos and your choice of rear. The Track Package for the V6 includes the GT suspension. You are correct, I had to go play with the build and price tool to confirm. It seems the GT comes with the good suspension out of the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sydtron Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I watched some MT videos of the camero v6, and mustang v6 and they looked like boats rocking around when they tried to lap a track. Controlled body roll can be a good thing, depending on the setup. Those numbers are legitimate though -- Subarus just aren't fast on a real road track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I also agree with your point about pricing. The GT is at a strange pricing point. For the money, you won't get better performance, but it seems to be lacking a lot of standard features that other cars in the same price range offer. In order to get those features or to get all of the items you want, the price gets a bit too high, IMO. Name another 412hp car that starts at a base price of around $29K that has more features. If we accept the fact that it is really in a performance class populated by much more expensive automobiles then it is a screaming deal even loaded up with options. For example using Ford's build and price tool, I optioned out a GT premium with leather sport seats, voice activated navigation, satellite radio, premium sound system, HID headlamps, Brembo brake package, 3.73:1 limited slip rear end, and of course the 5.0L 412hp, 390lb-ft V8 mated to a 6 speed manual. All for $39,440. Then I priced out an STI on Subaru's build price tool. I went with the sedan because it is cheaper and the non limited model which doesn't even have real leather seats. By the time I got navigation (crappy touch screen), satellite radio, and a few other options to bring it up to equipment parity I was looking at $37,748. Of course the STI does have AWD, but I already own a 4X4 truck that can go far more places in the snow than an STI. The STI is also down 107hp, and 95lb-ft to the GT. If I priced out the STI Limited with leather and all the goodies like an auto dimming mirror, a subwoofer (to match the Ford audio), and satellite radio; to really do an apples to apples comparison the STI is $40,943. Of course it has a sunroof that I would never use, whereas my GT as specified has none. Just to put things into perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilT Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 The only thing you missed out was quality and resale value. Compare the same two cars in 5 years time then choose which one you would buy. Double Award Winning Legacy GT Wagon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadvw Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I'm sure the V6 is nice, and it is faster than a WRX but honestly what kind of human being (at least one in possession of testicles) goes for the V6 when you can get the much more powerful V8 for only around $5K more? On a 60 month loan that is roughly $80-$100 more per month, who would not go for that? Yeah, but you're probably ALSO looking at $100/month more in insurance.. Plus, not everyone thinks only in terms of monthly payments when buying a car.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Yeah, but you're probably ALSO looking at $100/month more in insurance.. Plus, not everyone thinks only in terms of monthly payments when buying a car.. My insurance rates have gone down steadily since I got married and turned 25, went down again when I turned 30.... hooray! I can afford the insurance, frankly I could also afford to pay cash for the difference in MSRP if I chose too. However since 90% or more of people who buy cars finance them, I tend to look at extra equipment in terms of what it adds to a monthly payment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 The only thing you missed out was quality and resale value. Compare the same two cars in 5 years time then choose which one you would buy. 1.) You're talking to a guy who's 2005 LGT turned into a turd in the quality and build quality department by 50K on the ODO...... so I'm not buying that argument. 2.) Subarus don't really do all that well with resale value compared to many other brands. 3.) Ford continues to receive accolades for improved quality and resale value from organizations that measure such things within the auto industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sydtron Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Subarus are (generally) like pickup trucks. Tons of depreciation at first, then it levels off after awhile. I wouldn't be remotely surprised to see a Mustang absolutely trounce a Subaru's resale for the first 4 or 5 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 2.) Subarus don't really do all that well with resale value compared to many other brands. Subaru has come out as one of the best resale brands, on numerous occasions. You can search for "subaru best resale". It stood at the top of the pack right next to BMW in a recent KBB ranking. For 2011 it beat BMW and is top rank http://www.kbb.com/car-news/all-the-latest/2011-best-resale-value-awards Personally I don't care about resale all that much since I do not consider a vehicle an investment, therefore I am expecting to lose money on the deal, AS LONG as they don't devalue severely, like Kias and Hyundais used to until not long ago. Subaru is in full swing right now. It doesn't mean they should become complacent (to some extent, they have), but it looks like they do have a winning formula. I am holding out hope for a Forester with all the nice-ties of the Outback. 5-speed auto and a nicer interior with some nicer options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 ^ I can see that, I suppose it depends on when you sell your vehicles. Do you keep them for a long time, or turn them over quickly. For my use, the truck will stay until it literally can't function but I will try to keep newer cars to travel with and use as a DD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Subarus are (generally) like pickup trucks. Tons of depreciation at first, then it levels off after awhile. I wouldn't be remotely surprised to see a Mustang absolutely trounce a Subaru's resale for the first 4 or 5 years. How can they have better resale value when they are a dime a dozen? I don't think demand is that high and we'll see how good pony cars do once we hit the 4-dollar mark on the gallon of gas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 How can they have better resale value when they are a dime a dozen? I don't think demand is that high and we'll see how good pony cars do once we hit the 4-dollar mark on the gallon of gas. Well the V6 gets better fuel economy than an LGT, and the V8 does just as well on the highway with the auto, and slightly better with the manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 And have no utility whatsoever, hence the pony car name. They are designed with a different mindset and scope. What I was saying was that less people will be able to aford toys and will instead have to focus on vehicles with a bit more utility. But I am sure I am wrong, the way the economy is still doing so great right now, drivers will run to the dealer in droves to buy the latest "Camero", Mustang and Challenger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolksey85 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Just playing around, I built an '11 GT with 3.73's, Brembos and cloth seats with the 6spd and it was around 32-33k. Hell of a bargain in my book and it still manages to look slick in Performance White w/ a black interior. IMO, I don't need the nav because I have a Garmin and although HID's would be nice, I could live without them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoplightAssassin Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 But I am sure I am wrong, the way the economy is still doing so great right now, drivers will run to the dealer in droves to buy the latest "Camero", Mustang and Challenger. And there's finally a reason to buy one of those cars! The GT is in a league of it's own compared to the other two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Some of us still have jobs, don't need a backseat, and like a quick car. Besides the Mustang has a trunk! 13.4 cubic feet in fact, about the same as my old LGT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I am sure I will be proven wrong and pony cars will trump Subaru in terms of resale value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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