Shell Rotella T6 5W-40... God Send?

[LegacyGTBiggie]

I cant see any... jus to dilute the amount of addidtives. But in all the additives are WHY we are using the Rotella. The 5W40 doesnt matter from diesel or not... its a weight and viscosity break down. But those additives are what help diesel oil resist shearing and other forces that Boxer engines are famous for.

[HarryN]

I cant see any... jus to dilute the amount of addidtives. But in all the additives are WHY we are using the Rotella. The 5W40 doesnt matter from diesel or not... its a weight and viscosity break down. But those additives are what help diesel oil resist shearing and other forces that Boxer engines are famous for.

 

Yeah, exactly what I thought. I mean there is a reason why Diesel engines last for millions of miles. One of them has to do with the engine lubrication they use.

 

One thing I am going to do is when I do my first oil change at 100 miles, I am going to send an oil sample to Blackstone Labs for an analysis to see how bad the oil is from the factory. Then after 2900 miles on the next oil change, I am going to send another sample of the Rotella T6 5w-40 oil.

 

I am also wondering if I should go as far as to remove the oil pan on the car, clean it out completely, then slap it back on again before using the Rotella T6.

[rao]

Maybe using diesel fuel will also extend the life of the engine.

[LegacyGTBiggie]

Doubtful... But Harry try and and let me know how the STI likes detonation!

[HarryN]

Maybe using diesel fuel will also extend the life of the engine.

 

Or even the transmission!! Or heck, throw it in the A/C system as well.

 

Rao, I at least provided some UOAs in this post about oil. If you wish, I can provide more UOAs. I've read your numerous posts about your explanations about oils, but this is the first oil I have seen being used across multiple car brands yielding people praising the oil. Just bare with me on this one.

 

As far as the UOA, I will follow the factory recommendation and just do the first oil change at 3K then send the sample to Blackstone for an analysis. At least I can get a good baseline this way, prior to switch to the Rotella. However, I am also tempted to do the Motul oil first, go to 6K, grab a sample, then send to Blackstone. Then go with the Rotella T6 and send a sample at 9K.

 

To summarize:

 

Factory Oil: go to 3K then maybe switch to Motul or go straight to Rotella.

If I go with Motul: Go to 6K, grab a sample, then toss in the Rotella T6.

Rotella T6: Go to 9K, grab a sample, and possibly stick with Rotella T6.

 

This should be interesting.

[DrSpeed]

Yeah, exactly what I thought. I mean there is a reason why Diesel engines last for millions of miles. One of them has to do with the engine lubrication they use.

 

Keep in mind that they also cruise at 1,200 - 1,400 RPM, compared to a small displacement gas pot that requires high RPM to spin the turbo.

[seabass07]

You're missing the point. It's a good synthetic with similar zddp levels to other high quality oils. It is not the best oil in the world, but the fact that it is a diesel oil significantly reduces the price. It is not a god send...but it is a good oil that is cheap. It has good UOAs, that's great, so do many other oils. It has been used in MANY subarus with good results. So have a lot of other oils.

[rao]

Or even the transmission!! Or heck, throw it in the A/C system as well.

 

Rao, I at least provided some UOAs in this post about oil. If you wish, I can provide more UOAs. I've read your numerous posts about your explanations about oils, but this is the first oil I have seen being used across multiple car brands yielding people praising the oil. Just bare with me on this one.

 

As far as the UOA, I will follow the factory recommendation and just do the first oil change at 3K then send the sample to Blackstone for an analysis. At least I can get a good baseline this way, prior to switch to the Rotella. However, I am also tempted to do the Motul oil first, go to 6K, grab a sample, then send to Blackstone. Then go with the Rotella T6 and send a sample at 9K.

 

To summarize:

 

Factory Oil: go to 3K then maybe switch to Motul or go straight to Rotella.

If I go with Motul: Go to 6K, grab a sample, then toss in the Rotella T6.

Rotella T6: Go to 9K, grab a sample, and possibly stick with Rotella T6.

 

This should be interesting.

 

People praise Mobil 1, Motul, Amsoil, Wal-Mart oil, etc. across all kinds of engines.

[LegacyGTBiggie]

You're missing the point. It's a good synthetic with similar zddp levels to other high quality oils. It is not the best oil in the world, but the fact that it is a diesel oil significantly reduces the price. It is not a god send...but it is a good oil that is cheap. It has good UOAs, that's great, so do many other oils. It has been used in MANY subarus with good results. So have a lot of other oils.

 

Exactly... Good Oil + good Price + good wear = great deal.

[HarryN]

People praise Mobil 1, Motul, Amsoil, Wal-Mart oil, etc. across all kinds of engines.

 

Though the praises for Shell Rotella T6 far outnumber the brands mentioned.

 

At the same time, still wondering why many a racer (not sponsored or pissing money) prefer diesel oil for protection versus the brands mentioned above, unless they have deep pockets or are sponsored to get more of the mentioned brands.

 

As far as being cheap, I don't think that is the primary reason people are going with this oil. But I won't discount that it is not a reason.

 

Another UOA(s):

 

http://img81.imageshack.us/f/20081012by6.gif/

 

More brands here:

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/2-5-liter-litre-factory-motor/61207-list-uoas-used-oil-analysis-find-oil-works-5.html

 

I'm looking around for UOAs on Royal Purple, Amsoil, Pennzoil, M1, GC, Valvoline, etc.

[seabass07]

They don't. They also prefer redline and royal purple and amsoil and many other brands...the point again...is that rotella t6 is far cheaper than the others. It is a good oil. It has a good amount of zddp, but no detergents or friction modifiers. So it will give good wear protection, but low efficiency and no cleaning. That is another reason it is cheap.

[seabass07]

KIM that comparing UOAs from different oil and different drivers and different cars (even if same engine) and different weather is completely worthless. It will only tell you if you have a problem. The condition of the oil is influenced by MANY variables only one of which is the quality of the oil. If I do a UOA after 4k miles on my rotella t6 from consistent 90 degree weather and me beating on the car, it will likely be very different from your car with the same oil and different conditions.

[LegacyGTBiggie]

if you want the best... Amsoil. That is somethign I have known for a LOGN LONG TIME!

 

But at 35-40 bux a gallon and close to 10 a quart in seperates.... It is near double the cost.

 

Shell is GOOD at what it is. A cheap oil with GREAT wear protection(somethign subaru engines NEED). But it is by car not a RACE oil.

 

http://www.amsoil.com/catalog.aspx?GroupID=175 Amsoil high end oil 0W-20... not daily oil.

 

http://www.amsoil.com/catalog.aspx?GroupID=988 Amsoil run of the mill GOOD synthetic

 

Their racing oils http://www.amsoil.com/catalog.aspx?GroupID=988

 

 

I know a number of people who race subarus... And they normal say they get better times out of Amsoil. But here is my point to yuo. HOW OFTEN ARE YOU GOING RACING? In your mind you would use 40 dollar a gallon oil all year round for the 2-3 days you MIGHT go racing a YEAR?

 

Shell is better than the other 20 Dollar oils(penzoil/mobil) IMO. And at that price point they do a good job. But if you are concerned about racing... BUY OIL DEISGNED FOR RACING! But expect to pay the price.

[HarryN]

I don't buy that for a second, Josh. I've been to VIR and Summit several times to know that is hearsay. Yes there are a handful of people that use AMSOIL, Motul, Redline, etc. but from the majority of people I've spoken to, even people that race in Michigan, Oregon, PA, etc. Diesel oil is what they respond with. And that is what I am investigating on.

 

As far as how often I will be going racing, probably 4 or 5 track events, time and work permitting.

 

As far as oil designed for racing, I can name a billion brands out there that say they are a racing brand oil.

 

I'm looking for UOAs. Numbers. Since MD is in a temperate zone, I am looking for people that beat the crap out of their engines in racing, and people who baby their engines. But as seabass states, there are a ton of variables, though I will not go as far as to say UOAs are completely worthless. I am looking for patterns and what the common denominator is in their results: what materials are showing up more often?

 

I plan on doing my own UOA as well with the factory oil after 3K. Granted I will see a lot of particles in there, but how much will I see? Plus with SoA saying they won't warranty any work with engines that don't have Synthetic oils in them, I am going to use this against them if my engine grenades per their break-in procedures told to dealers (and ultimately us the buyers).

[HarryN]

They don't. They also prefer redline and royal purple and amsoil and many other brands...the point again...is that rotella t6 is far cheaper than the others. It is a good oil. It has a good amount of zddp, but no detergents or friction modifiers. So it will give good wear protection, but low efficiency and no cleaning. That is another reason it is cheap.

 

Explain why it will give low efficiency and no cleaning. And if you don't mind, I am going to post this in a discussion with some racers that race pretty often and swear by Diesel oil.

 

From the multiple results I have seen (from several locations, temperate zones, driving conditions) Rotella T6 5W-40 has the cleanest results thus far. It is pretty impressive with no friction modifiers and no cleaning. Multiple forums and people are also reporting they burn insignificant amounts to no oil when using Rotella T6. But then again, if you can't trust a damn thing you read no matter from where or how many sources, why even bother doing research before going with it on your own? Just slap it in and hope to God it won't screw things up. I'll pass on that.

 

And yes, being cheap is very appealing to me as well, but I want to see why this is THE oil that I am reading many more praises than any other brand I have read thus far.

[seabass07]

I didn't say it will give bad efficiency and no cleaning...I said it has no friction modifiers and no detergents. That means that it was not designed for efficiency or cleaning. Those additives are put in many oils to help with gas mileage and to help clean deposits. Rotella does not have that. I am not saying that is a horrible thing, just something to plan for...ie adding a detergent occasionally. I am using the rotella t6 and it has lowered my consumption as well. That is because of the viscosity more than anything IMO. I think if I switched to a 5w40 amsoil, I would still have low consumption.

 

It is not about trusting...it is about understanding all of the variables. Comparing UOAs of different oils will only rule out the crap. It will tell you if something is a good oil, but will not tell you which of 2 oils is better because of all of the other variables.

 

So I will reiterate my point. Rotella is a very good quality oil for a very low price. That does not make it the best oil ever.

[seabass07]

For clarity. I mean lower efficiency compared to an identical oil with friction modifiers. According to SAE, the worst case scenario when comparing an oil with friction modifiers to one without is about a 2% loss in fuel efficiency. It is not a big deal. And more friction does not mean more wear...just less efficiency.

[DrSpeed]

For clarity. I mean lower efficiency compared to an identical oil with friction modifiers. According to SAE, the worst case scenario when comparing an oil with friction modifiers to one without is about a 2% loss in fuel efficiency. It is not a big deal. And more friction does not mean more wear...just less efficiency.

 

So, where would that energy go, if it's lost in "efficiency"?

 

Pumping losses? The oil is the same viscocity....

 

consider the energy balance....

[FocuS]

Just to add my .02....

 

I have been using Rotella T6 5W-40 for the last ~10K miles and have been very impressed. I have used Royal Purple, M1, Motul, Red Line and countless others in the past but the bang-for-the-buck of Rotella seems to be great! I have ZERO oil loss between changes and no difference in cold starts. I just wish I could get the old Suby oil filters again...?

[HarryN]

This is all very good discussion. I thank everyone for their participation in it, and invite more people to chime in as well.

 

@seabass: I posted the same topic with some other more frequent racers and got a common response back about the cleaners (paraphrased of course): "I guess he doesn't understand the higher properties of Zinc and Phosphorus in the oil." There was another post that added to this (quoted in verbatim, cut-n-paste); "Detergents have been known to mask results of UOAs. I'd rather have a more consistent and proven oil - racing or DD - that will give me more accurate results. On my last teardown on my engine, carbon and soot deposits were virtually non-existent. Not saying there weren't any, just saying in key areas of the engine, they were barely even noticeable. To each their own I guess. I will stick with Rotella."

 

I haven't seen any pictures of his last tear down, but I do know he tears it apart after every two race sessions. He's a bit of a stickler, but he tracks 3000 miles in one year alone. Again, I will not discount that his driving will be much more different than my own, but the way he goes through bushings, brakes, and tires, I know he really pushes his engine and car to its limits.

 

Some others had chimed in as well and pretty much stated the same thing in terms of how clean their engines were since running the Rotella, one had converted from AMSOIL (though he added he didn't see any difference in how clean his engine was since the switch to Rotella). But I should add that these guys have catless exhaust systems, unlike my car will be with its catalytic converter.

 

As far as less efficiency is concerned, I didn't get any responses on that. One person replied what you meant by less efficiency. But now that I see your response here, I will post it up there and get their take.

 

@Focus: I am glad you brought this up as I have seen some sites talk about there being no difference between our filters now versus the black filters of yesteryears. This topic leads me to provide this link:

 

http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilters/index.html

 

In my humble opinion and from some people I have spoken to, the OEM blue filter is fine. If you want to save money and get just as good filtration, go with the Puralator PureOne Gold. Just remember that if your engine grenades, and the dealer sees another oil filter being used versus the stock one, you're SOL.

[seabass07]

Just because it does not have detergents does not make it a "dirty" oil. I am not even saying that detergents are better. I am just saying that you should understand that it does not have any cleaning agents. That means that if you have a lot of carbon deposits, it will not help with that like many other oils. If you have a long OCI you will want to clean things out occasionally.

 

ZDDP has no effect whatsoever on cleaning. It is an antiwear additive. It does that job very well. Some people seem to think it is a miracle additive that will do everything. It just creates stronger protective films over a larger range of temps than other antiwear additives.

 

KIM that a 2% loss in MPG is worst case scenario when comparing 2 oils, one with friction modifiers and one without. It does not mean that rotella is 2% less efficient than other oils. Either way that equates to less than half an mpg. I've been using rotella and have seen no difference in my mpg.

 

Harry you are again missing the point. That is that it is a good oil, but it is not the be all end all of oils. You are making a good oil out to be the best oil ever invented in the history of oil. That, it is not.

 

Also don't forget that just because people on forums race their cars...doesn't make them experts.

 

@DrSpeed the loss of efficiency is probably being converted to heat, but not necessarily wear. In the SAE tests, it showed that there was no correlation to oils coefficient of friction and wear. When I say friction, I'm talking about friction between oil molecules, not between metal parts. Similar to how a 5w40 oil will have a higher cof than a 5w30. Just saying that the addition of friction modifiers in oil is solely to increase efficiency. If cof was related to wear, then we would all be using a straight 10 weight oil because of it's low cof.

[rao]

Just because it does not have detergents does not make it a "dirty" oil. I am not even saying that detergents are better. I am just saying that you should understand that it does not have any cleaning agents. That means that if you have a lot of carbon deposits, it will not help with that like many other oils. If you have a long OCI you will want to clean things out occasionally.

 

ZDDP has no effect whatsoever on cleaning. It is an antiwear additive. It does that job very well. Some people seem to think it is a miracle additive that will do everything. It just creates stronger protective films over a larger range of temps than other antiwear additives.

 

KIM that a 2% loss in MPG is worst case scenario when comparing 2 oils, one with friction modifiers and one without. It does not mean that rotella is 2% less efficient than other oils. Either way that equates to less than half an mpg. I've been using rotella and have seen no difference in my mpg.

 

Harry you are again missing the point. That is that it is a good oil, but it is not the be all end all of oils. You are making a good oil out to be the best oil ever invented in the history of oil. That, it is not.

 

Also don't forget that just because people on forums race their cars...doesn't make them experts.

 

@DrSpeed the loss of efficiency is probably being converted to heat, but not necessarily wear. In the SAE tests, it showed that there was no correlation to oils coefficient of friction and wear. When I say friction, I'm talking about friction between oil molecules, not between metal parts. Similar to how a 5w40 oil will have a higher cof than a 5w30. Just saying that the addition of friction modifiers in oil is solely to increase efficiency. If cof was related to wear, then we would all be using a straight 10 weight oil because of it's low cof.

 

This post is so full of heresy it is breathtaking

 

We all know that this oil is the best thing in the world, it is just that major manufacturers are trying to keep it a secret because if engines don't wear out they won't sell any new cars.

[seabass07]

you are right...just don't tell anyone that I'm making all this shit up.

[rao]

Likewise

[BoozeRS05]

I've been using Rotella CJ4 and the T6 5w40 for about 2 years/40k miles, year round, based on a recommendation. Never done a UOA, but it seems to work just fine. Bosch filters, because they seem to put out good products. 111k miles, burns very little oil..