Subaru annouces new boxer engine series

[JoeFromPA]

GTS Jeff and Bosco,

 

I appreciate the education. Of course, my point remains for production vehicles in the U.S. and their economy-rooted engines (Sorry GTS, did you miss that part?).

 

I realize it's becoming more and more common; my point was that it's a superb technology that is not yet being embraced among the economy engine crowd by most automakers, including those who make the most oft-bought small engines.

 

Subaru's 2.5 liter starts it's life in the $17.5k (MSRP) Impreza and works its way up to the $25k (or so) Outback.

 

So these engines need to be produced in a profitable manner even when the cars are being discounted down to 15k.

 

Among the $15k cars in America, let's examine:

 

1. Honda Civic - Not yet embracing DI

2. Honda Fit - Nope

3. Toyota Corolla - Nope

4. Mini Cooper - Yes, but starts at 20k

5. Nissan Cube - Nope

6. Nissan Sentra - Nope

7. Chevy Cobalt - Nope

8. Ford Focus - Nope

9. Ford Fiesta - Nope

10. Dodge....no

...

 

Subaru already deals with the expense of their AWD systems, and boxer layout, among their powertrains. Granted, they don't revamp their engines often enough, but I'm wondering if they left space for future addition of direct injection.

 

From what I understand, direct injection allows for better power by providing a better burn and more cylinder cooling, allowing a higher compression ratio. In other words, if they left space to add the system, they could easily revamp the other components to add direct injection later.

 

Until then, they've made a better engine and kept the cost down and the technology inline with the current players.

 

Nissan - Does the cube,

[sti2k5]

I really don't care about minimal power gains made by DI...In fact, when you start tinkering with your own car, would you rather be able to work on it...or not...

I bought a 2009 Civic, and I can still replace my injectors, plugs, belts, and various other things myself...on this brand new stuff, good luck doing anything but rotating your tires...

I don't even know why this is an issue, it's just making it more expensive to buy cars, more expensive to own them, and taking away the one thing automotive enthusiasts enjoy, working on them!

[PhilT]

I really don't care about minimal power gains made by DI...In fact, when you start tinkering with your own car, would you rather be able to work on it...or not...

I bought a 2009 Civic, and I can still replace my injectors, plugs, belts, and various other things myself...on this brand new stuff, good luck doing anything but rotating your tires...

I don't even know why this is an issue, it's just making it more expensive to buy cars, more expensive to own them, and taking away the one thing automotive enthusiasts enjoy, working on them!

 

Buy a Triumph Spitfire, it should be right up your street

[JoeFromPA]

I don't even know why this is an issue, it's just making it more expensive to buy cars, more expensive to own them, and taking away the one thing automotive enthusiasts enjoy, working on them!

 

I can't speak for everyone, but I believe one other thing automotive enthusiasts enjoy is driving the cars...

[Beanboy]

Subaru needs DI on their turbo engines or CAFE requirements are going to screw them.

 

They are number 2 on the worst compliance list...something like 30% off the numbers they need for the fleet thanks to AWD on all their cars, no really tiny cars/engines to work with, and I believe the highest % of turbo cars sold as part of total lineup.

 

Subaru has had enough trouble with EPA regs and keeping their turbo engines together over the past few years thanks to factory tunes, it is time for a change.

 

As for the NA motors? Don't think it is needed yet, but will be needed during the life of the new generation engine.

[MatsuDano]

i can't speak for everyone, but i believe one other thing automotive enthusiasts enjoy is driving the cars...

 

+1

[sti2k5]

I can't speak for everyone, but I believe one other thing automotive enthusiasts enjoy is driving the cars...

 

So you are saying you will notice a huge difference on a DI or a standard FI engine...I am gonna say it won't affect the drivability...

 

not everyone has money to just pay $90+ per hour for work

[LittleBlueGT]

So you are saying you will notice a huge difference on a DI or a standard FI engine...I am gonna say it won't affect the drivability...

 

not everyone has money to just pay $90+ per hour for work

 

Yes, a noticeable difference, maybe not huge, but 15 hp is very noticeable.

 

The new Hyundai Sonata is DI, and according to a show on Sat it has the highest specific output of its competition.

 

You will save way more on gas then the odd $90+ /hr work you will need.

[Piripi]

Thats why you can buy 70's, 80's and 90's cars. I expect a new car to have new technology, otherwise I'll buy a simpler older car.

 

Subaru has always kept it quite simple compared to other European brands. And they still do while keeping reliability quite high.

 

I would not be surprised if in 3-5 years they add DI to the turbo cars.

 

A 10% fuel increase it's not that much though.

[rao]

Does anyone have a link to the DI lawnmower engines?

[dudeondacouch]

[zelda]It's a secret to everyone.[/zelda]

[PhilT]

Does anyone have a link to the DI lawnmower engines?

 

 

You ask, you shall receive

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50LCN2ObkVg]YouTube - 2 stroke direct fuel injection[/ame]

[rao]

It doesn't appear to run

[PhilT]

It's an enthusiasts lawnmower, being built in a shed. Reliability isn't important for true enthusiasts.

[rao]

I see, that explains the Legacy.

[GEE-OTTO]

This explains 0w-20 in the new forester only. However all the 2.5i/NA folks should still expect to have dismal hp numbers but if the newer Turbo version id based off this N/A version the possibility of F/I conversions 7 years from now will be way better than now

[underpowerd]

This is the way I look at it:

 

-lighter internals with less friction - good

-smaller bore and longer stroke - very very very good

 

• smaller bore means their pistons should be stronger, and a lot less susceptible to detonation. might even mean they could fit forged pistons in (can't with our bore due to emissions AFAIK)
  
• I would hope would still keep the same red-line despite the longer stroke due to lighter internals
  

-other slight redesigns also sound slightly beneficial

 

I would imagine things will continue to evolve, and we will see DI eventually.

 

i sincerely admire the optimism of your interpretation

 

i read into it something like this:

 

* "lighter internals with less friction" = pistons with the constitution of pringles, goodbye traditionally stout rods.

 

* "smaller bore, longer stroke" = 6K max redline

 

now a destroked forged up 3.0 that could be spun out to 8k might get a cynical basterd like me to engage in some honest-to-goodness optimism...

 

but i really hope you're right.

[GTS Jeff]

GTS Jeff and Bosco,

 

I appreciate the education. Of course, my point remains for production vehicles in the U.S. and their economy-rooted engines (Sorry GTS, did you miss that part?).

 

I realize it's becoming more and more common; my point was that it's a superb technology that is not yet being embraced among the economy engine crowd by most automakers, including those who make the most oft-bought small engines.

 

Subaru's 2.5 liter starts it's life in the $17.5k (MSRP) Impreza and works its way up to the $25k (or so) Outback.

 

So these engines need to be produced in a profitable manner even when the cars are being discounted down to 15k.

 

Among the $15k cars in America, let's examine:

 

1. Honda Civic - Not yet embracing DI

2. Honda Fit - Nope

3. Toyota Corolla - Nope

4. Mini Cooper - Yes, but starts at 20k

5. Nissan Cube - Nope

6. Nissan Sentra - Nope

7. Chevy Cobalt - Nope

8. Ford Focus - Nope

9. Ford Fiesta - Nope

10. Dodge....no

...

 

Subaru already deals with the expense of their AWD systems, and boxer layout, among their powertrains. Granted, they don't revamp their engines often enough, but I'm wondering if they left space for future addition of direct injection.

 

From what I understand, direct injection allows for better power by providing a better burn and more cylinder cooling, allowing a higher compression ratio. In other words, if they left space to add the system, they could easily revamp the other components to add direct injection later.

 

Until then, they've made a better engine and kept the cost down and the technology inline with the current players.

 

Nissan - Does the cube,

 

I think the problem people have here is that having a huge press announcement about a FUTURE engine being only "inline with the current players" is that Subaru is merely playing catch-up to everyone else and that's nothing to be proud of. By the time this engine hits full production, everyone else will have moved on to something bigger and better, leaving Subaru at the bottom yet again.

 

Even without DI, let's examine the current offerings from the other makes...

 

Honda's K24...hmm. Variable cam phasing, much more power, wider torque curve. And they were making this engine since 03!! Even Subaru's "new" engine doesn't match up in power nor fuel efficiency.

 

Nissan's QR25...again, way more power, modern design. The earlier models had problems, but then again, that's because it's not a design from the 70s like the EJ.

 

Toyota...I really don't want to draw a comparison here, but even the 2.5L Camrys start at 180hp nowadays.

 

Chevrolet hasn't made a new engine in years, but I think they can be forgiven, seeing as their shittiest car, a COBALT, is faster than Subaru's highest performing offering, the STI.

 

But hey, to each their own. If you want to give the maker of the car you have in your garage, a pat on the back, who am I to stop you?

[GTS Jeff]

I would much rather have a vehicle that I can work on...not something that you have to hook a computer up to every time it hiccups.

 

Whenever I hear this, I stop taking anything that person says seriously.

 

OBD has been around since the 80s, and if a Scanguage scares you, you aren't oldschool, you're stupid.

[MJ in PA]

Yeah, and too bad it is a LOT smaller than the 2010-11 LGT. I saw the news release on the Regal GS and was VERY, VERY interested....until I actually saw how big it was at the car show last spring.....not interested anymore. Too small for our needs. Cool car though.

 

I saw plenty of Insignias when I was over in Europe, so I knew what to expect from the Regal. It's a decent looking car (unlike the butt ugly 5th gen Legacy imo) and I prefer a compact car over a boat like the Legacy has become.

 

That said, I think I'd have to go with a Ford Fusion Sport with Haldex AWD if I were in the market today, unless I had the money to spring for an A4 or 3 Series. I'm curious to see what the next gen, Mondeo-based Fusion looks like!

[bosco]

I wonder if Subaru will use this new engine in the STI? Seems like a smaller bore would leave less room for larger valves and that can't be good for performance.

[sti2k5]

Whenever I hear this, I stop taking anything that person says seriously.

 

OBD has been around since the 80s, and if a Scanguage scares you, you aren't oldschool, you're stupid.

 

I am not complaining about OBD moron...I am talking about how EVERYTHING has to be hooked up anymore. OBD is just fine for me...all my old Civics had it, but you could tear the thing apart and fix it with minimal effort..try that with the new new stuff...

 

And may I ask...have you ever torn down a motor to do anything?

[sti2k5]

This article is a good read...

Audi guys are having issues with build up on valves from what I have read elsewhere

 

http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1041628_why-ford-skipped-direct-injection-route-for-new-v-6-and-v-8-engines

[PhilT]

I am not complaining about OBD moron...I am talking about how EVERYTHING has to be hooked up anymore. OBD is just fine for me...all my old Civics had it, but you could tear the thing apart and fix it with minimal effort..try that with the new new stuff...

 

And may I ask...have you ever torn down a motor to do anything?

 

You mean apart from a lawnmower in a shed

 

 

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_mgp6y6BYle0/TG8i2RpMncI/AAAAAAAAAd0/dlrGKEVM_uw/s1600/Shadetree+Mechanic.jpg

[rao]

I am not complaining about OBD moron...I am talking about how EVERYTHING has to be hooked up anymore. OBD is just fine for me...all my old Civics had it, but you could tear the thing apart and fix it with minimal effort..try that with the new new stuff...

 

And may I ask...have you ever torn down a motor to do anything?

 

I have not - that seems like it would be really hard and a little scary.

 

I also don't think new cars can be fixed.