Can't be... 2010 Legacy does poorly in family sedan comparision test

[IwannaSportSedan]

How many people would ignore their tires on their new Subaru, and try to drive on snow with Summer tires, not realizing that Subaru equipped their car with tires that are not at all m/s rated, though?

 

Summer/Snow dual sets should be an aftermarket choice, Summer only should not be the way these cars are shod from the factory.

[SubieDriver]

How many people would ignore their tires on their new Subaru, and try to drive on snow with Summer tires, not realizing that Subaru equipped their car with tires that are not at all m/s rated, though?

 

Summer/Snow dual sets should be an aftermarket choice, Summer only should not be the way these cars are shod from the factory.

 

That depends on whether you're selling a GT or a 2.5i. The 2.5i should have all-seaon rubber, and the GT should have summer rubber. The 3.6R probably should have all-season too, as it's not the performance-focused model.

[MikeNH]

How many people would ignore their tires on their new Subaru, and try to drive on snow with Summer tires, not realizing that Subaru equipped their car with tires that are not at all m/s rated, though?

 

Summer/Snow dual sets should be an aftermarket choice, Summer only should not be the way these cars are shod from the factory.

You can't control stupid. It's pitiful how little most people know about their cars. I'm not expecting everyone to be a master mechanic, but IMO there is no excuse for everyone who drives to be able to change a flat, check oil and other fluid levels. Being that clueless is how you end up stranded.

 

But my rant about the decline of modern society aside, I would agree that at least having the option of AS rubber at the time of purchase is a good idea.

[Waaazooo]

My dealerr told me it had summer tires on the car when they did the paperwork on the car, when we went over the warranty.

 

IWSS- why do you persist to hate? Its a done deal.

[Waaazooo]

Doesn't sti come with summer tires? OMG what about if those owners ignore the rating on them as well?

[TrueWhiteBoy]

Well, the idea seems to be that if you buy the performance version of a car that it's going to be on a track at some point, so summer tires is a decent choice (or good all seasons).

 

Summer tires on a car that's being sold for it's ability to traverse harsh road conditions (eg not a performance car, but rather an everyday vehicle that will probably see snow) seems like a bad idea for traction reasons.

 

So I'm basically agreeing with SubieDriver's last post

[IwannaSportSedan]

STI is a higher performance car than the Legacy GT is, and even then STI should likely have UHP all-season-rated tires from the showroom floor. Especially when sold in the northern half of the continental US, where SNOW falls, and people buy AWD cars in at least part, to deal with snow and other inclement weather. NO ONE has yet defeated that reasoning.

 

Tires are getting more expensive, especially since the steel tariff to protect the US Steel industry from cheaper-to-buy chinese steel belts in most radial tires. was put in place by the government.

 

It is patently absurd to have to put 500$ or more of new tires on an AWD car before the very first winter the car ever sees, and then figure out what to do with the relatively un-used summer only tires that the car came with, that you also paid for in the cost of the car.

 

It may be a done deal, but it isn't a good deal, nor is it done correctly. Why should I just give them a pass for doing things wrong, just because they already ARE wrong?

 

It isn't HATE. It is expectation of doing things properly.

 

Camry SE doesn't come with summer tires. Fusion 3.5 Sport doesn't come with summer tires. No mainstream sedan, even with sporty intentions, should come with summer-only tires that MUST be changed out before winter, unless there is a no-cost dealer option to specify similar performance, all season rated tires in their place that at least have a CHANCE of working in the winter.

 

I have summer tires... because I also have winter tires. I will not drive any car, regardless of how many driven wheels, with summer tires, in the snow. They do not have braking performance in those conditions. It is a SAFETY ISSUE, and it should damn well be common sense.

 

Subaru KNOWS where the majority of it's cars are sold, geographically, and it is largely in the snow belt.

[fishbone]

The STi is inspired from Rally, and everyone knows that during said rallies they use summer tires, if not slicks. So I do not see what the problem is with SOA putting summer tires on a street-driven STi. Not to mention the car is awd, so it doesn't need good tires. For example the RE92s were more than the average driver could outhandle.

[Waaazooo]

STI is a higher performance car than the Legacy GT is, and even then STI should likely have UHP all-season-rated tires from the showroom floor. Especially when sold in the northern half of the continental US, where SNOW falls, and people buy AWD cars in at least part, to deal with snow and other inclement weather. NO ONE has yet defeated that reasoning.

I'm sure Subaru knows, as well as you do that A/S tires are not very good in the snow, and not very good in the summer, mediocre at best. I applaud Subaru for giving me decent summer tires instead of a set of mediocre a/s tires that would have to be replaced by both a set of summer tires and a set of winter tires.

 

tires are getting more expensive, especially since the steel tariff to protect the US Steel industry from cheaper-to-buy chinese steel belts in most radial tires. was put in place by the government.

 

It is patently absurd to have to put 500$ or more of new tires on an AWD car before the very first winter the car ever sees, and then figure out what to do with the relatively un-used summer only tires that the car came with, that you also paid for in the cost of the car.

If you cannot afford a set of $500 tires, then you probably shouldn't be buying a $30k car

 

It may be a done deal, but it isn't a good deal, nor is it done correctly. Why should I just give them a pass for doing things wrong, just because they already ARE wrong?

speculative

 

It isn't HATE. It is expectation of doing things properly.

 

Camry SE doesn't come with summer tires. Fusion 3.5 Sport doesn't come with summer tires. No mainstream sedan, even with sporty intentions, should come with summer-only tires that MUST be changed out before winter, unless there is a no-cost dealer option to specify similar performance, all season rated tires in their place that at least have a CHANCE of working in the winter.

maybe these are a pair of cars that should interest you... because of their free option of $500 tires.

 

I have summer tires... because I also have winter tires. I will not drive any car, regardless of how many driven wheels, with summer tires, in the snow. They do not have braking performance in those conditions. It is a SAFETY ISSUE, and it should damn well be common sense.

 

Subaru KNOWS where the majority of it's cars are sold, geographically, and it is largely in the snow belt.

Why not have summer tires and A/S tires?

 

I'm glad that overall the only thing you are complaining about is the absence of $500 a/s tires.

[MikeNH]

...and then figure out what to do with the relatively un-used summer only tires that the car came with, that you also paid for in the cost of the car.

I have the rims I got for winter use under my dining room table that never gets used.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Not to mention the car is awd, so it doesn't need good tires. For example the RE92s were more than the average driver could outhandle.

 

WRONG.

 

Tires also have to handle braking and handling forces, not just acceleration.

 

Crap tires are crap tires. A car should have competent tires, designed for the useage that is intended for them.

 

There are only 4 patches of steel belted rubber between you and the ground. They should be GOOD.

 

I'm sure Subaru knows, as well as you do that A/S tires are not very good in the snow, and not very good in the summer, mediocre at best. I applaud Subaru for giving me decent summer tires instead of a set of mediocre a/s tires that would have to be replaced by both a set of summer tires and a set of winter tires.

 

A/S tires are better in the snow than SUMMER tires are.

 

Buying two sets of tires isn't something that everyone is prepared to do, and a reasonable compromise isn't the end of the world.

 

Being an un-compromising owner, with dedicated winter and summer tires SHOULD be an extra choice. Something that an enthusiast like me would, and have chosen to do, and bear the expense of. (and I did so when it was appropriate for me to buy new tires anyway, not when the cars were wearing their factory new tires.)

 

Being un-compromising on the showroom floor, by offering only summer tires, from the factory, to a car that people SHOULD and DO expect to drive through the winter, is STUPID, and incorrect for a Subaru, aside from maybe the STI. (and I still think STI should have the no-cost choice between summer and UHP all-season rubber, too. Again, not everyone chooses to maintain two sets of wheels and tires)

 

If you cannot afford a set of $500 tires, then you probably shouldn't be buying a $30k car

 

FALLACY OF LOGIC. One shouldn't have to buy NEW TIRES for a BRAND NEW CAR. Tires should be included... and they should be THE PROPER DAMN TIRES for the realistic and pragmatic use of the specified car.

 

The Legacy GT does not need summer tires in order to operate as it should... and arguably, it should operate in snow, where summer tires are not recommended, and are a safety risk.

 

So summer tires are arguably (hence we are ARGUING ABOUT IT), inappropriate fitment for the Legacy GT from the factory.

 

maybe these are a pair of cars that should interest you... because of their free option of $500 tires.

 

No, those companies are simply not quite that insane, or incompetent, to inappropriately put factory summer tires on a mainstream sedan, without an option to change them over to all-seasons instead, for those who don't want to have the expense or maintenance of a separate set of winter tires, in addition.

 

Leave the option for two sets of wheels and tires to the parts and service department to sell, or the aftermarket.

 

The showroom new car should be versatile enough to handle year-round normal driving, by default. Which is not the case with factory summer tires, and no alternate option.

 

Why not have summer tires and A/S tires?

 

Because if you have two sets... they SHOULD be specialized. If you have ONE set, they should be versatile. Where the heck are you getting your logic from?

 

I'm glad that overall the only thing you are complaining about is the absence of $500 a/s tires.

 

It is a symptom of Subaru of America's product planning decision makers continuing loosening grip on reality, and it is discouraging to see people on this forum who just blindly follow them, thinking that they can do no wrong.

[Waaazooo]

^^it wasn't logic was a rebuttal to your whole theory of all deficiencies are fixed by use of A/S tires, which is a joke.

I am not certain why you have begun a class action suit for all of the gross negligent decisions made.

[Naylor]

IWSS - you have way too much time on your hands man. but I still love ya!

[IwannaSportSedan]

^^it wasn't logic was a rebuttal to your whole theory of all deficiencies are fixed by use of A/S tires, which is a joke.

I am not certain why you have begun a class action suit for all of the gross negligent decisions made.

 

You can't make a valid point based on a logical fallacy.

 

I never said A/S tires were objectively better tires. I said they were better suited for versatile use by people who expect to drive a new AWD sedan all year round in places where snow falls... which is where Subaru tends to sell AWD cars.

 

I have begun no legal action whatsoever.

 

But I don't like to let bad decisions and poor arguments go un-answered, and assumed to be valid, when they are not.

 

There is far too much ignorance, mis-information, bad choices, incompetence, and lack of discernment, or even corruption out there, in all sorts of arenas.

 

I do what I can to combat that, rhetorically, in the arenas in which I participate.

 

I no longer see the point of letting that slide, as it does no one any favors to perpetuate assumptions of validity, where there isn't validity.

 

So let's set this straight.

 

Summer tires are better in summer than A/S tires. Summer tires are dangerous in winter.

 

Winter tires are better in winter than A/S tires. Winter tires are inadequate in summer.

 

A/S tires are a compromise, some are crap, some are reasonable, good tires for what they are used for.

 

It is a choice to incur more cost and effort to run more than one set of tires. It is a choice that I have made, and advocate to people who are willing to do so.

 

I realize that most people like John Q. Public, don't want the cost and effort to run multiple sets of tires. That is the RULE. Multiple tire sets are the exception.

 

Under that rule, a car expected to drive every day, year round, through rain, sleet, snow, ice, hail, and whatever else... especially brand new off the lot, should be equipped with the versatility of all-season, competent tires, rather than more narrowly specialized tires, that serve well in one way, and poorly in other ways.

 

I would say the same thing, if Subaru were equipping Legacies with ONLY snow tires for year round use. That would be equally limiting, and inappropriate.

 

BTW... It only took about 2 minutes to write this.

[Waaazooo]

1.) Do you really think. John q. public are the primary buyers of the lgt?

 

2.) I don't think that having the foresight of knowing what it will cost to own and operate a car before buying it is a "fallacy of logic". More apporpriately it is called good consumerism.

 

3.) I have looked all over, I cannot find anything that substanciates your rules.

 

4.) 1 minute on a black berry.

[Guest]

IWSS, I need to say your picking on the lack A/S tires is bit ridiculous.

 

I personally think standard summer tires are no brainier, and that's actually a good move on Subaru part for the new LGT. Everyone who drives in some snow should get a winter/snow tire on another set of wheels. It's a frigging common sense when it comes to safety. A/S tires should be banned.

[Waaazooo]

Oh, just to set the record straight, I believe that the car should've been equipped with a/s tires, it would suit the majority of its consumers, better than a seasonal tire. I personally appreciate that they equipped the car with summer tires. I have winters on a set rims for the car.

 

I do not fault the manufacturer more than I fault the consumers for not purchasing a car that is a better fit. Like the person who has engine trouble with their sti and has only fueled it with 87 octane. Ownership is knwoing the price of product not just the msrp.

[nemo]

Oh, just to set the record straight, I believe that the car should've been equipped with a/s tires, it would suit the majority of its consumers, better than a seasonal tire. I personally appreciate that they equipped the car with summer tires. I have winters on a set rims for the car.

 

I believe this is exactly what IWSS's point is.

[psucaptainkickass]

iwss, i need to say your picking on the lack a/s tires is bit ridiculous.

 

I personally think standard summer tires are no brainier, and that's actually a good move on subaru part for the new lgt. Everyone who drives in some snow should get a winter/snow tire on another set of wheels. It's a frigging common sense when it comes to safety. A/s tires should be banned.

 

+1

[Waaazooo]

I believe this is exactly what IWSS's point is.

No, he he said it was a fallacy of logic to hold consumers responsible for their actions and buying a car that isn't equipped from the show room with the ability to drive thru snow banks in true subaru marketing fashion.

 

Ha ha.

 

I knew what his point was, I just wanted him to cut some of the fat off it and say.. "It would serve a greater community to offer a tire selection that was more versatile"

Much like the premise subaru lives on. Versatility.

[SubieDriver]

I believe this is exactly what IWSS's point is.

 

The problem with equpping the GT with all-season tires is that it will suffer in comparison to the competition that comes equipped with summer tires, and everyone (general public) will be thinking it's inferior. Subaru has to equip tires comparable to its competition, or they'll always be seen as inferior in the performance arena.

 

What they ought to do is provide choice. When you buy the car, specify which you want.

[IwannaSportSedan]

This is your fallacy of logic.

 

If you cannot afford a set of $500 tires, then you probably shouldn't be buying a $30k car

 

Do you spend a significant amount of your yearly income on a product, only to HAVE TO SPEND MORE TO GET IT TO FUNCTION CORRECTLY?

 

Expecting someone to AUTOMATICALLY, AND NECESSARILY spend hundreds of more dollars, just because they already spent tens of thousands of dollars... is a FALLACY OF LOGIC, and it is not an appropriate extrapolation.

 

If you WANT to spend more, you are free to spend more, to put summer and snow tires on your vehicle. That is your choice.

 

If Subaru EXPECTS you to spend more on proper winter tires, just to safely use your new Subaru product in the winter, that is not the customer's choice, and that expectation is a failure on Subaru's part.

 

Unclemat, and others... I have already stated that specialized tires are narrowly focused, and better within that focus. And WORSE outside of that.

 

How many of your neighbors with daily driver cars change their tires twice a year?

 

I have 12 wheels and tires STACKED in my garage, and another twelve mounted to my three cars, at any given time. Plus a couple of spare unmounted tires that are still good.

 

Do you think most people do that? I doubt there is anyone else in my whole town that does that to the extent that I do. Maybe not even the whole county. Certainly none of my neighbors.

 

That is MY CHOICE, after the sale of the car. As such, it is my expense to bear to get more specialized than standard. I am not a normal owner, nor are most of us here. Most people who drive subarus only change the tires when they are worn out, on only one set of wheels. Not because it is technically BETTER, but rather because it is standard, versatile, easier, and cheaper.

 

Obviously, if I have made that choice, I see merit in specialized tires. That doesn't mean I want to mandate my decisions for everyone else, or anyone else's decisions to me. What makes sense for me, and what I am willing to CHOOSE to pay for on my own terms is one thing. I abhor most mandates that deprive me of a choice.

 

Those people are the RULE. WE are the exception. Everyone always reminds me of that when I want wider option diversity from Subaru... I don't dispute it, but now you guys who bust my chops about being a minority opinion, now you are on the other side of the fence. I am still here calling for common sense in terms of standard configuration, and option diversity beyond that base line.

 

Ideally, summer OR winter tires, on a second set of wheels should be a cost-option, and maybe summer-only tires on the standard set of wheels only should be another OPTION. I like options. I have no problem with options. Summer tires on the Legacy GT as an OPTION would not be a problem, and my points would be moot. The fact that they are standard, and not an option is my whole point.

 

I DON'T like the idea of being cornered into a lack of options. Like having to replace brand new tires with other brand new tires, because Subaru doesn't make sensible and versatile decisions.

 

Those people who are the rule drive on all-season tires, all year round, and cars come from the factory that way, FOR THAT REASON.

 

I've said that GT is getting narrower in focus, due to lack of an automatic gearbox. But it is still a snow-belt AWD sedan, and contrary to Subaru's configuration the OWNER should expect the car to be useable in the snow, FROM NEW.

 

What happens when someone wants to test drive a Legacy GT during the winter months, and the car is wearing summer factory tires? Do they let people even drive that on the lot in that configuration, and try to avoid playing real-car-pinball on a new car lot, when they can't STOP?

 

I can't believe this isn't blatant common sense. Facepalm indeed.

 

Maybe since common sense isn't common here, nor at Subaru's product planning department... nor anywhere else anymore... maybe common sense is just too much to expect from even informed people, and no wonder Subaru products are taking a dive in appeal to people like me.

[nemo]

The problem with equpping the GT with all-season tires is that it will suffer in comparison to the competition that comes equipped with summer tires, and everyone (general public) will be thinking it's inferior. Subaru has to equip tires comparable to its competition, or they'll always be seen as inferior in the performance arena.

 

What they ought to do is provide choice. When you buy the car, specify which you want.

 

Really? The 05-09 came with crappy RE-92s and it was always rated very well compared to it's much stiffer competition (3-Series, A4, etc -- which all tend to come with A/S)

[rao]

I'm a little lost here, so is the 2010 Legacy GT good or not?

[BMA44]

I'm a little lost here, so is the 2010 Legacy GT good or not?

 

no, it stinks...