naimouasta Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 reading this thread makes me depressed. i know a lot of you don't like the 2010's, but i do. looks good in motion. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctK7A0oGdLM]YouTube- New Subaru Legacy 2010[/ame] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The B4 Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 And you continue to miss the point. WHY did the coupes go out the window? WHY are wagons unpopular, when everyone and their dog owns a CUV which is a bloated version of the same format, and most of them no longer even have any pre-tense of "off-road", nor "towing" capability. Citing current trends is looking 10-15 years too late. We are seeing the results now, not the causes. You have to look back to see the causes. Citing the CTS doesn't say anything about why the market today is the way it is, and how it got here. CUVs are popular because they are available, and they are a good value for what they cost. They are well equipped for what they cost. They have enough room for 5 or even 7, and a practical cargo area with a hatch. GUESS WHAT... a wagon does, too, at least for 5 passengers, like most moderate to smaller SUVs/CUVs. And before about 1994... most people who now drive CUVs for that reason... were driving Taurus wagons. I remember seeing those all over the place, and then disappearing. Or else they were driving Minivans. Minivans that don't share the light-truck classification, either. Who offers wagons instead of SUVs? Subaru may have been one of the last hold outs, but they followed the pattern too. The bigger players led the way. They killed the wagons, and let the coupes die, too, in favor of more cost effective SUVs, and when SUVs got dinged for being too heavy or too thirsty... they started making SUVs out of car platforms, coining the newer term, CUV. The only reason sedans survived better, is by sheer mass numbers, and sedans have always been more mainstream than coupes or wagons. That format has been standard enough to soldier through, and the car makers know that they can't just let sedans whither on the vine, and get cancelled, like coupes and wagons. The last vestiges of the Minivan market are declining as well... more of that "cool" factor... which hides the real accounting reality that SUVs/CUVs have an advantage over. The Minivan's sheer practicality has kept it alive longer than most coupes, and barely outlasting wagons. But Ford has cancelled them. GM is in the process of getting rid of them, and Nissan is, too. Honda, Toyota, and Chrysler/VW are the only ones left... and barely. Again, a starved market, compared to CUVs/SUVs... because they are pushed, supported, and equipped better, and advertised more... as "cooler". Instead of doing the same to sedans... because they know they can't completely abandon that segment as they have the others, they have just let most sedans get bland, and to get a really nice sporty sedan... it has gotten progressively more expensive, and the cars in the mainstream of the market have gotten blander. A mid-90s E36 BMW M3 (not the base 3-series) was roughly $35K. Now it starts north of 58,000$ It has risen out of the price range it used to be in. Income levels on average have not risen correspondingly. And the offerings that still occupy the realm of a college grad, professional employee have gotten pretty bland. "cool" is entirely subjective... and probably the most EASILY modified opinion by advertising. And if being "green" is really all that cool... technically people should be WANTING wagons over CUVS and SUVS... due to wagons being lower to the ground, and having lower drag, and thus usually getting a couple of MPG better mileage. But the difference between light trucks and cars in CAFE, is more than just a couple of MPG... That isn't enough... so vehicles classified as light trucks still save car makers money, as well as saving R&D money from having to spend loads of cash eeking out a bit more efficiency... and simultaneously diluting what most car buyers want, in the process. Regardless of bodystyle, most buyers don't want a vehicle so slow that it wont' get out of it's own way... so there is only so much car companys can do to raise fuel efficiency, especially quickly. Light trucks also serve to buy them time under CAFE. And still... car customers smell the value difference from a mile away, and continue to perform like the finely honed and trained consumers that they are, and buy the practical, and cost effective CUVs and SUVs... and the car makers keep selling them, and keep portraying them as "cool." They have every reason to. And almost no reason remaining to push wagons or coupes... other than SUVs starting to tarnish under the "green" marketing of other sectors of the economy. Over and over again, I explain WHY, with reasoning that I think fits the facts. You can disagree all you want, but that doesn't make my reasoning invalid, until you provide a counter-point that explains it more effectively. I'll listen, but I doubt you have it. I'm not missing the point. I'm shaking my head at another one of your crazy conspiracy theories. I don't know what you're talking about on the "value proposition." CUV/SUV's cost more and offer less than a comparably equipped wagon or Minivan. Even under the high gas prices of 2008 when SUV's really fell out of favor and there was high availability of pretty much everything, the public still gravitated towards CUV's, sedans, and small cars wagons continued to languish. Wagons have a stigma... whether you like it or not. Minivans make better people haulers and are less expensive than comparable crossover SUVs and they don't sell as well why? because a lot of people don't want to be caught dead in a minivan. There are always some people who are practical and don't want an SUV... but they are the exception to the rule The lack of wagons is market driven. You have it completely wrong to suggest it's manufacturer driven. Wagons have morphed into CUV's and minivans have morphed into CUV's/SUV's because the need still exists to haul things and manufacturers had to figure out a way to package a vehicle that gets the job done without being eliminated by the stigma. I remember a friend went to look at Legacy wagons in 2005. She didn't want the Legacy wagon as she didn't like how grandma ish it looked. I was pushing here into it for better sportiness. She ended up buying an outback despite what I was telling her to get. I recommended a Tribeca to another female friend. She told me it looked too much like a station wagon. You are trying to force to magnets together that don't attract to make a point. It's just not working IWSS. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viber Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 It's not like there is a lack of wagons. Subaru might have their head in their ass, but there are other options Off the top of my head, there is Audi, Volkswagen, BMW, Saab, and Volvo; all Euro car makers and luxury brands, which is why wagons are known as yuppie fodder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Audi - very few. VW - Jetta only... BMW - fewer every year. New 5 Touring is not coming, I hear... who knows how long 3-touring will last. They instead sell X6s which are the worst of both worlds, and cancels out the better aspects of a sedan or a SUV. Saab - what else would they sell?, and they are on a VERY thin thread that almost gave out already. Volvo - on the verge of being sold to the chinese, and fewer wagons... while XC70 went over to "light truck" height. They are getting very scarce. Audi is already cutting models from the US lineup that they sell overseas, specifically the A5 Sportback 5-door, which could very well have been one of my favorite sport sedans. If they still import Avants, it isn't many. Chances are the A5 Sportback is not going to be imported because it would cost too much to federalize and certify, compared to the number of people that they can try sell it to. There is another case of government costs preventing product diversity. How many Legacy variants of the BL/BP generation did we miss out on due to having to crash test, certify, and otherwise spend a ton of money on? Not that they were in a significant way different than the models that WERE sold here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viber Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Not sure what you mean by very few. How many does any one car maker need in the USA? CAFE regs will force more fuel efficient utility onto the market. The obnoxious SUV era is dead, and 90% of CUV's are hideous and have wretched driving dynamics. More sport wagons are inevitable, but America is not as wagon friendly as Europe. Audi: A4, A6 Volkswagen - Passat, Jetta Saab: 9-3, 9-5. Yes they are on the brink, which is a cause for pause Volvo: V50, V70. Being sold to the Chinese, which is probably a good thing. Ford damn near killed Volvo BMW: 3XX, 5XX. We dont know what the future holds, but I doubt BMW will be wagon-less Cadillac: CTS Acura: TSX. Acura doing a wagon might be a sign of things to come. I'm probably missing a few, but as it stands, there are wagons to be had for those that absolutely must have a wagon. Subaru killed off their wagons, it is what it is. Odds are, they arent bringing them back, and even if they did, it would looks like ass, just like the sedan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAC5.2 Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Dont forget the terrible selling, but oh-so-awesome Merc E63 AMG. I'd get one in a minute. As for a Legacy wagon... http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii287/bac52/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG00073-20100127-1251.jpg [URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_J Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Top of the line MBZ and Audi wagons are BAD-AZZ! IF I had the $, I would have bought one yesterday. In the meantime, yes we will settle for the "Legacy" wagon aka 2008 - 2009 Outback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atc5 Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 I'll drive/maintain my wagon till the day a worthy replacement arrives, but if by some cruel fate I had to find a replacement tomorrow, I might look into the 2011 Acura TSX sport wagon due this Fall. .. Wow, really like that tsx wagon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iconoclast Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 http://www.motorward.com/wp-content/images/2009/11/subaru-legacy-gtk.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bochinam Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 ^^^Nice! Too bad SOA would never go for something like this. They're too busy trying to figure out how to salvage the Tribaka. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The B4 Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 apparently that SEMA LGT wagon was actually pieced together from a USDM Outback. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axxe Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 It's amazing how much attention my post has drawn. I know we are just a few people that really like Subarus, but there appears to be a lot of interest in a Legacy wagon other than an Outback. It would be nice if Subaru gave it a chance. I have spent some time looking at other cars, and I am back where I started. There is nothing out there I really like enough to buy. I like owning a Subaru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The B4 Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 unclemat jr. :eek: [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iconoclast Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Will this one do? http://data.bytbil.com/images/molnlyckebil/NRY574-1001.jpg Oh - not really a LGT, it's a Diesel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iconoclast Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Please please please SOA, sell us a Legacy wagon 6spd in gas or diesel!!!! 6 Spd!!! There's nothing else like it and there is clearly demand based on these posts. SOA said they only sold about 5-7k standard Legacy wagons before and needed to sell 15k to justify it in the USA... Well based on the sales numbers of the gen 5 it appears they could do that easily if it were marketed correctly. With mods it is the most amazing vehicle - like a mature WRX with room for 4, luggage and dogs. A cord of wood fits in the car, for christsakes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blink Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 @ axxe - happy to see you're holding on for a subaru. IMO, for the money nothing can beat the LGT wagon for performance, mod. potential, and versatility. ('course i'm biased...) Dunno what your purchasing criteria is (practically new, late-model, auto or manual) but this 2007 DGM has pretty low miles and looks veeery clean... http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail.jsp?paId=340211914 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iconoclast Posted February 27, 2010 Share Posted February 27, 2010 http://www.subaru-global.com/10legacy_20d_sport_wagon.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteyjr Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 Took a look at that website above (Global subaru) So they do make a 2.5 l GT turbo wagon besides the 2l diesal. Sweet, check out the spoilers and accessories. Too bad we can only dream. http://www.subaru-global.com/10legacy_accessories.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iconoclast Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 So based on my perusal of this excellent site it appears there is significant demand for a Legacy wagon in this country... It seems they could SAVE money by selling their worldwide collection everywhere. I'm so very tired of auto makers treating the US market like their dumb child. There are plenty of us who want serious, competent and practical cars that are not SUVS or CUVS or whatever. Each person here should contact Subaru of America directly and often and implore them to bring their entire lineup back to this country... I can't hold on to my '93 with 280K on it much longer despite my best efforts - at some point it will become impratical and besides; I'd like a new car!! And I want it to be Subaru!! But if I can't buy a Subaru wagon with manual transmission... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 1, 2010 Share Posted March 1, 2010 ^ Go buy something else and do not buy Outback. Voting with money is the only way that works. Or buy used (amounts to almost the same). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burnout8488 Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 It would be nice if Subaru gave it a chance. They already did :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwedeBits Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 I'm also a sport wagon afficianado, which is rather depressing at the moment. Here are some more options: - Acura TSX Sport Wagon coming this fall (based on the European Honda Accord Tourer). Might come in 6MT but probably not AWD. - All-new Volvo V60 coming some time next year. If it comes to the U.S., it'll most likely come in T6 3.0 6-cyl in-line 304 bhp 440 Nm AWD geartronic first, and then maybe T5 2.0 4-cyl in-line 240 bhp 320 Nm Powershift (dual clutch automatic). While probably an exercise in frustration, please let Subaru know you want a Legacy-based sport wagon: https://www.subaru.com/shopping-tools/contact-us.html (select Product Recommendations under "category") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnXpectedError Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 I was out today and Test drove one of these Passat Wagons.......Am I turning into a 30yr old OLD Man? LOL I actually liked it a lot, 3.6L engine sounds amazing and friggin thing hauled ass. Think it was stronger than my Spec B. She was a bit lackluster in the Handling department tho and Auto Only too:mad: Also a little peeved that the 4motion is front wheel biased too. All in all not a bad car tho. Also Loved the Techno Gadgets in the 2010 version of the passat compared to 09 and its a great deal where its the last year for this model. I may buy this car this weekend. Don't worry, my Spec B isn't going anywhere lol http://members.shaw.ca/ninjaactionjeans/2010-volkswagen-passat2.jpg http://members.shaw.ca/ninjaactionjeans/2010-volkswagen-passat.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sideways the Seven Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 I was out today and Test drove one of these Passat Wagons.......Am I turning into a 30yr old OLD Man? LOL I actually liked it a lot, 3.6L engine sounds amazing and friggin thing hauled ass. Think it was stronger than my Spec B. She was a bit lackluster in the Handling department tho and Auto Only too:mad: Also a little peeved that the 4motion is front wheel biased too. All in all not a bad car tho. Also Loved the Techno Gadgets in the 2010 version of the passat compared to 09 and its a great deal where its the last year for this model. I may buy this car this weekend. Don't worry, my Spec B isn't going anywhere lol Ugh. Consider yourself lucky. Last I checked the US version is only available in FWD with the 2.0T and an automatic. -Brandon 2007 Chevrolet Suburban LT3 1981 Chevrolet C10 LWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwedeBits Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 apparently that SEMA LGT wagon was actually pieced together from a USDM Outback. The Outback and Legacy wagon are very similar, no? Except for the suspension, the changes are cosmetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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