Was hoping for LGT wagon

[SubOperator]

Buick's web site only shows sedan. Do we know if wagon will be introduced in US ? The pictured one has EU tags.

[D_J]

All depends on your needs. I need a "light truck" so the Outback is perfect for me. The Buick above, along with similar models from Chrysler and more of an extended sedan shape. Notably how low the ceiling is in the back. Plus I find having the taller ride useful along with more of a heavy duty suspension.

[GTride05]

I swear I've seen some BMW wagon 6mt??

[sactojesse]

I swear I've seen some BMW wagon 6mt??

Yes, you can still get the 328i wagon, 328xi wagon, and 535xi wagon w/ a 6MT in the U.S. The problem w/ the 328 wagon is that it's small, underpowered, and overweight. The problem w/ the 535xi is that it's too expensive!

[Guest]

^ exactly correct

[SubOperator]

I've sat in Caddy CTS Wagon at NE Autoshow in Providence few days ago. It looks nice from the outside, the cargo area is acceptable, but the backseat is way too tight. I am comparing this to BP which feels like 2.5 passengers on the backseat, Caddy is clearly only 2 back there.

 

Given the price, I'd shoot for CPO 535xi if nothing else comes around soon. I looked at 09 WRX hatch but frankly the interior looks and feels so cheap after BP it will be likely at the bottom of the list.

 

Honda Crosstour is bloated noncense. Two passenger backseat, dropped roof line to make you feel crumped (and I am only 175cm which I think is what, 5'6' ?), and cargo that made my boys laugh - the wheel arches are HUGE and eat about half of cargo width, it's a joke.

 

Seat Exeo ST would be a nice option as cheaper VW or Audi variant, but it is not going to be sold in US ever. Damn, I would settle for Skoda SuperB Combi but it's EU-only bird...

We need another Malcolm Bricklin sans Yugo

[Guest]

Exeo...? Interesting. I am not following Euro market much anymore. Pretty nice indeed. Not a bad interior... aesthetics wise like 100x ahead of the ugly mobile appliance fatty oriented interior in the 2010+ Subaru barges.

 

http://l.yimg.com/i/ng/sh/carenthu/20090605/11/3070402495-seat-exeo-st.jpg?x=566&y=426&q=80&sig=0n5MDyDSdfOdVUuWsLYkxQ--http://l.yimg.com/i/ng/sh/carenthu/20090605/11/1498261388-seat-exeo-st.jpg?x=566&y=426&q=80&sig=_ikLFm9MYiw9nBqKmvykzA--http://l.yimg.com/i/ng/sh/carenthu/20090605/11/4255743202-seat-exeo-st.jpg?x=566&y=480&q=80&sig=On2rTDLq8HNGbZcKUzz0kA--http://l.yimg.com/i/ng/sh/carenthu/20090605/11/298199094-seat-exeo-st.jpg?x=566&y=480&q=80&sig=WnI32fdSBHBZmuez9xudhA--

[IwannaSportSedan]

That is a previous generation Audi A4, now dressed as a seat. They've gotten Audi hand-me-downs before.

 

Seriously... ignore the front end, and you'll see. it isn't an imitation... it IS the previous generation A4 Avant.

[Guest]

Yes, correct, but apparently it got lots of A6 interior bits.

 

They even transferred entire production line to Spain.

 

Still looks good!

[D_J]

The new Audi wagons are amazing. Gotta love the leather interiors. But waaay too much $ for me.

[BAC5.2]

Looks pretty sharp. The sedan's rear is very ugly on par with the new Legacy's ass, but the wagon seems to be looking sharp all around.

 

I agree. The Sedan looks terrible, and the non-VXL variant of the wagon looks terrible as well.

 

The VXL (that's what Opel calls it... the Insignia Sports Tourer VXL 4x4) probably won't come to the US.

 

Twin Turbo 2.8L V6, 6MT, AWD... what more could you want? It's a shame that a loaded out Opel Insignia costs $40k RBP, which is insane.

[Blink]

Wow - that Buick wagon is HOT!

(couldn't have ever imagined myself uttering those words, but hey... times change) Even if it does make it stateside, it's guaranteed to be an automatic. Good for some, not so others.

 

I'll drive/maintain my wagon till the day a worthy replacement arrives, but if by some cruel fate I had to find a replacement tomorrow, I might look into the 2011 Acura TSX sport wagon due this Fall. Dunno the chances for a 6MT or SH-drive but those features are available elsewhere within Acura's lineup so it's possible. Looks pretty decent in DMG w/sport front clip IMO...

[D_J]

Yeah but all the U.S. auto industry executives think Americans DON'T like wagons.

 

Instead they give us fat, gas hog SUV's that have piss-poor handling. Even the new Outback no longer looks like a wagon and more like a Hyundai SUV.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Yeah but all the U.S. auto industry executives think Americans DON'T like wagons.

 

Instead they give us fat, gas hog SUV's that have piss-poor handling. Even the new Outback no longer looks like a wagon and more like a Hyundai SUV.

 

I would ammend your premise.

 

A: Auto industry executives DON'T CARE what americans want. They have made their bed on the fact that Americans buy what they are presented with, whether they are in love with it, or not. And they have gone bankrupt on it, and still haven't changed their philosophy toward listening to the customer.

 

B: The auto industry knows about CAFE. They know the laws currently, and they know where it is going in the next few years. Light Trucks have lower standards than cars. SUVs got hammered when gas prices rose... but they didn't build loads of new car models. They made CUVS. Cars that qualify for the CAFE Light Truck qualification.

 

Outback is in with them, and Legacy wagon is gone, after it was starved to death, and the low sales of an un-available, un-known vehicle was used to enforce the point that SUBARU wanted to make.

 

Now they are pushing 5-door imprezas on their practicality of a hatchback... something they didn't push when Legacy Wagon was being built.

 

The weight difference and performance difference between a 2008-current 5-door WRX and a 2005-2006 Legacy GT Wagon are probably small. The cargo space of a Legacy wagon was significantly larger, and the car looked nicer, and was better equipped and appointed. yet Legacy GT wagon died a quiet and obscure death in the US. And 5-door Imprezas get pushed, yet Foresters and Outbacks get pushed harder, and sell better.

 

US Consumers can smell value from a mile away... they know that CUVs and SUVs before that, are greater value for the money, because the companies are making them that way. There is money to be saved, from not having to pay CAFE fines, if you have light trucks, rather than cars, for a given fleet average fuel efficiency rating.

 

When did the Taurus wagon, and the Legacy wagon, and a lot of those moderate 80s and early 90's wagons really start disappearing, in favor of Outbacks, and Ford Explorers... The mid-90s. When did all the coupes go belly up... Mid-90s. When did the SUV go bonkers... Mid-90s.

 

When was the last time that the CAFE regulations significantly change, and the law take effect (not the same as the law being signed...) MID-90s.

[The B4]

LOL you are daft if you think wagons are disappearing because of the auto makers. Wagons are disappearing because Americans don't by them. Auto manufacturers will gladly fill niches where there is money to be made. I can ask any number of my friends if they'd be interested in buying a traditional wagon, and the answer would be no.

 

Find me one USDM vehicle available in both wagon/hatchback and sedan that the wagon outsells the sedan.

[The B4]

Exeo...? Interesting. I am not following Euro market much anymore. Pretty nice indeed. Not a bad interior... aesthetics wise like 100x ahead of the ugly mobile appliance fatty oriented interior in the 2010+ Subaru barges.

 

http://l.yimg.com/i/ng/sh/carenthu/20090605/11/3070402495-seat-exeo-st.jpg?x=566&y=426&q=80&sig=0n5MDyDSdfOdVUuWsLYkxQ--http://l.yimg.com/i/ng/sh/carenthu/20090605/11/1498261388-seat-exeo-st.jpg?x=566&y=426&q=80&sig=_ikLFm9MYiw9nBqKmvykzA--http://l.yimg.com/i/ng/sh/carenthu/20090605/11/4255743202-seat-exeo-st.jpg?x=566&y=480&q=80&sig=On2rTDLq8HNGbZcKUzz0kA--http://l.yimg.com/i/ng/sh/carenthu/20090605/11/298199094-seat-exeo-st.jpg?x=566&y=480&q=80&sig=WnI32fdSBHBZmuez9xudhA--

 

FYI, this is a rebadged 2004 Audi A4 platform.

[SubOperator]

FYI, this is a rebadged 2004 Audi A4 platform.

 

both SEAT and SKODA are... that wasn't the point...

[SBT]

Ditto on the stupid passenger seat in our 05 wagons. That is the main reason I end up driving the most.

 

Which 3 series did she get? My wife likes the 3 series too. I'm still hoping they bring over a 3 series diesel AWD wagon...

 

Cheers,

Mike

 

You do realize that all Subaru front passenger footwells (at least on other than JDM models) are shorter than the driver's side due to the ECU compartment taking up that 1.5-2" of extra legroom that you have on the other side?

[SubOperator]

Outback is in with them, and Legacy wagon is gone, after it was starved to death, and the low sales of an un-available, un-known vehicle was used to enforce the point that SUBARU wanted to make.

SOA wanted to make that point; FHI still sells Legacy Wagon through the world... SOA was paving road for this right when BP/BL was introduced - remember, the 2010 Outback prototype was presented to US dealers in 2005 in Japan ... SOA knew they've got their wish coming down the pipe, and they had no interest to promote any sales of BP Legacy Wagon.

[IwannaSportSedan]

LOL you are daft if you think wagons are disappearing because of the auto makers. Wagons are disappearing because Americans don't by them. Auto manufacturers will gladly fill niches where there is money to be made. I can ask any number of my friends if they'd be interested in buying a traditional wagon, and the answer would be no.

 

Find me one USDM vehicle available in both wagon/hatchback and sedan that the wagon outsells the sedan.

 

you missed my entire point. AGAIN.

 

Between crash testing every little thing, and CAFE regulations being stricter on light trucks than cars... CARS COST MORE THAN LIGHT TRUCKS.

 

It is harder to sell a greater number of wagons to cover that higher cost, compared to selling "light trucks" like even OUTBACK, or Venza... or larger SUVs... where you can sell them with more equipment due to the lower chance of getting CAFE fines.

 

And crash testing and emissions testing on every individual model has been cited by automakers as to why they don't offer niche products, and a large catalog of variation on cars.... Each variation costs millions to further certify.

 

THESE COSTS HAVE TO BE PAID, AND THEY MAKE THE REQUIRED SALES NUMBERS HIGHER THAN THE MARKET SUPPORTS. IT ISN'T THAT CARS WON'T SELL AT ALL. THEY WON'T SELL ENOUGH.

 

That is why the government meddling in this drives diversity out of the marketplace. EVERY time.

 

Why do you think Crosstour and ZDX are so huge? Because it is easier to classify a 5-door sedan as a CUV, and not incur CAFE fines that might be levied if they were stricter-rule cars.

 

And you mean to tell me that Subaru doesn't know this, and didn't handicap the availability of Legacy wagons, and handicap it's options list... to justify cutting off that line, simplifying their production, and reducing the exposure of their Car/LT fleet mix, and their CAFE exposure.

 

People bought Outbacks because Subaru sold them Outbacks, and didn't have many Legacy wagons to speak of.

 

That trend has been being established since the mid 90s and of course customer trends have followed, and now SUVs/CUVs are more popular than wagons.

 

Supplier/Retailer/Advertisers can shape public opinion toward their product. and they have.

 

You talk about niche models... and yet Subaru sells so few, and fewer each year, even compared to Subaru's offerings overseas. Subaru's behavior, as a very small part of a larger picture... proves my point. They have followed the market almost precisely. Dropping coupes, and moving toward light truck classifications, and away from niche car offerings.

 

It is a matter of cost. make no mistake. They listen to the accountants much more than they listen to the customers. The sad part is, the government shouldn't be driving the costs up for the accountants to worry about.

 

And yes, I mean SOA, whenever decisions affect the US market differently than the ROW markets, supplied out of Japan.

[D_J]

LOL you are daft if you think wagons are disappearing because of the auto makers. Wagons are disappearing because Americans don't by them. Auto manufacturers will gladly fill niches where there is money to be made. I can ask any number of my friends if they'd be interested in buying a traditional wagon, and the answer would be no.

 

Find me one USDM vehicle available in both wagon/hatchback and sedan that the wagon outsells the sedan.

 

You proved my point. U.S. auto exec's look at the profit margins and would rather sell everyone sedans and SUV's instead of wagons because they only look at the numbers...don't care about innovation or giving people choices.

 

For some reason, Audi, BMW and Mercedes keep making tons of wagons that are all over Europe and exported to the rest of the world. If according to your logic, people don't buy them...then why are wagons still sold all over the world? And people DO buy them because they have specific needs. Yes they could also go out and buy a SUV, but it's all about choices for consumers. Otherwise I take my business elsewhere to find what I what.

 

It's not about sedan vs wagon, it's about wagon vs SUV.

[The B4]

You proved my point. U.S. auto exec's look at the profit margins and would rather sell everyone sedans and SUV's instead of wagons because they only look at the numbers...don't care about innovation or giving people choices.

 

For some reason, Audi, BMW and Mercedes keep making tons of wagons that are all over Europe and exported to the rest of the world. If according to your logic, people don't buy them...then why are wagons still sold all over the world? And people DO buy them because they have specific needs. Yes they could also go out and buy a SUV, but it's all about choices for consumers. Otherwise I take my business elsewhere to find what I what.

 

It's not about sedan vs wagon, it's about wagon vs SUV.

 

NO bro. The sentiment regarding wagons is VERY different globally. Americans don't care for wagons as a general statement. Automakers bring them out and then they fail. Auto companies will capitalize on any niche that makes money... and its not there for wagons. Do you think BMW sells more 3 series wagons than X3's? Why do you think Audi is slowly pulling back on A4 Avant options? Wagons languish in the US because of the American public. You can probably ask your circle of friends if they'd buy a 3 series sedan, coupe, wagon, or an x3... and see what kind of responses you get. I'd bet money the wagon would be the dead last response.

[The B4]

both SEAT and SKODA are... that wasn't the point...

 

Didn't say it was the point. I just pointed it out.

[The B4]

you missed my entire point. AGAIN.

 

Between crash testing every little thing, and CAFE regulations being stricter on light trucks than cars... CARS COST MORE THAN LIGHT TRUCKS.

 

It is harder to sell a greater number of wagons to cover that higher cost, compared to selling "light trucks" like even OUTBACK, or Venza... or larger SUVs... where you can sell them with more equipment due to the lower chance of getting CAFE fines.

 

And crash testing and emissions testing on every individual model has been cited by automakers as to why they don't offer niche products, and a large catalog of variation on cars.... Each variation costs millions to further certify.

 

THESE COSTS HAVE TO BE PAID, AND THEY MAKE THE REQUIRED SALES NUMBERS HIGHER THAN THE MARKET SUPPORTS. IT ISN'T THAT CARS WON'T SELL AT ALL. THEY WON'T SELL ENOUGH.

 

That is why the government meddling in this drives diversity out of the marketplace. EVERY time.

 

Why do you think Crosstour and ZDX are so huge? Because it is easier to classify a 5-door sedan as a CUV, and not incur CAFE fines that might be levied if they were stricter-rule cars.

 

And you mean to tell me that Subaru doesn't know this, and didn't handicap the availability of Legacy wagons, and handicap it's options list... to justify cutting off that line, simplifying their production, and reducing the exposure of their Car/LT fleet mix, and their CAFE exposure.

 

People bought Outbacks because Subaru sold them Outbacks, and didn't have many Legacy wagons to speak of.

 

That trend has been being established since the mid 90s and of course customer trends have followed, and now SUVs/CUVs are more popular than wagons.

 

Supplier/Retailer/Advertisers can shape public opinion toward their product. and they have.

 

You talk about niche models... and yet Subaru sells so few, and fewer each year, even compared to Subaru's offerings overseas. Subaru's behavior, as a very small part of a larger picture... proves my point. They have followed the market almost precisely. Dropping coupes, and moving toward light truck classifications, and away from niche car offerings.

 

It is a matter of cost. make no mistake. They listen to the accountants much more than they listen to the customers. The sad part is, the government shouldn't be driving the costs up for the accountants to worry about.

 

And yes, I mean SOA, whenever decisions affect the US market differently than the ROW markets, supplied out of Japan.

 

I disagree entirely. Coupes went out the window in the 90's because the market changed. The SVX came in at the very end of the popularity of coupes. The RS was super niche in the impreza's super niche sales volume. There were plenty of coupes on the market and consumers pulled back on them. Even newer coupe offerings like the nissan altima coupe are struggling. The cycle of popular vehicles ebb and flow. It's just like body on frame SUVs. They have rapidly fallen from grace and we now see a lot more unibody CUV's. Body on frames are cheaper and easier to produce. Vehicles like the explorer are now switching to unibody platforms despite the cost factor. I wonder why this is.

 

Americans don't like/want wagons. Watch this CTS wagon not hit expectations. Even with a hatchback I get a lot of comments about it versus if it was a sedan. If it was a wagon it wouldn't even be cool to the vast majority of people.

[IwannaSportSedan]

And you continue to miss the point.

 

WHY did the coupes go out the window?

 

WHY are wagons unpopular, when everyone and their dog owns a CUV which is a bloated version of the same format, and most of them no longer even have any pre-tense of "off-road", nor "towing" capability.

 

Citing current trends is looking 10-15 years too late. We are seeing the results now, not the causes. You have to look back to see the causes. Citing the CTS doesn't say anything about why the market today is the way it is, and how it got here.

 

CUVs are popular because they are available, and they are a good value for what they cost. They are well equipped for what they cost.

 

They have enough room for 5 or even 7, and a practical cargo area with a hatch.

 

GUESS WHAT... a wagon does, too, at least for 5 passengers, like most moderate to smaller SUVs/CUVs.

 

And before about 1994... most people who now drive CUVs for that reason... were driving Taurus wagons. I remember seeing those all over the place, and then disappearing. Or else they were driving Minivans. Minivans that don't share the light-truck classification, either.

 

Who offers wagons instead of SUVs?

 

Subaru may have been one of the last hold outs, but they followed the pattern too. The bigger players led the way.

 

They killed the wagons, and let the coupes die, too, in favor of more cost effective SUVs, and when SUVs got dinged for being too heavy or too thirsty... they started making SUVs out of car platforms, coining the newer term, CUV.

 

The only reason sedans survived better, is by sheer mass numbers, and sedans have always been more mainstream than coupes or wagons. That format has been standard enough to soldier through, and the car makers know that they can't just let sedans whither on the vine, and get cancelled, like coupes and wagons.

 

The last vestiges of the Minivan market are declining as well... more of that "cool" factor... which hides the real accounting reality that SUVs/CUVs have an advantage over. The Minivan's sheer practicality has kept it alive longer than most coupes, and barely outlasting wagons. But Ford has cancelled them. GM is in the process of getting rid of them, and Nissan is, too. Honda, Toyota, and Chrysler/VW are the only ones left... and barely. Again, a starved market, compared to CUVs/SUVs... because they are pushed, supported, and equipped better, and advertised more... as "cooler".

 

Instead of doing the same to sedans... because they know they can't completely abandon that segment as they have the others, they have just let most sedans get bland, and to get a really nice sporty sedan... it has gotten progressively more expensive, and the cars in the mainstream of the market have gotten blander.

 

A mid-90s E36 BMW M3 (not the base 3-series) was roughly $35K. Now it starts north of 58,000$ It has risen out of the price range it used to be in. Income levels on average have not risen correspondingly.

 

And the offerings that still occupy the realm of a college grad, professional employee have gotten pretty bland.

 

"cool" is entirely subjective... and probably the most EASILY modified opinion by advertising.

 

And if being "green" is really all that cool... technically people should be WANTING wagons over CUVS and SUVS... due to wagons being lower to the ground, and having lower drag, and thus usually getting a couple of MPG better mileage.

 

But the difference between light trucks and cars in CAFE, is more than just a couple of MPG...

 

That isn't enough... so vehicles classified as light trucks still save car makers money, as well as saving R&D money from having to spend loads of cash eeking out a bit more efficiency... and simultaneously diluting what most car buyers want, in the process. Regardless of bodystyle, most buyers don't want a vehicle so slow that it wont' get out of it's own way... so there is only so much car companys can do to raise fuel efficiency, especially quickly. Light trucks also serve to buy them time under CAFE.

 

And still... car customers smell the value difference from a mile away, and continue to perform like the finely honed and trained consumers that they are, and buy the practical, and cost effective CUVs and SUVs... and the car makers keep selling them, and keep portraying them as "cool." They have every reason to. And almost no reason remaining to push wagons or coupes... other than SUVs starting to tarnish under the "green" marketing of other sectors of the economy.

 

Over and over again, I explain WHY, with reasoning that I think fits the facts. You can disagree all you want, but that doesn't make my reasoning invalid, until you provide a counter-point that explains it more effectively. I'll listen, but I doubt you have it.