Was hoping for LGT wagon

[Guest]

U.S. wagon offerings are slim pickings, especially when you add AWD, performance and manual transmission (and value) into the equation.

 

Audi: A4, A6 - no MT available.

 

VW: Passat wagon is about to be gone. No MT or AWD anyway. Jetta no AWD and no performance

 

Volvo: V70 is gone. V50R, yeah the only AWD+manual+turbo option (but it's... a Volvo).

 

BMW: 3-series is too small, no 335(x)i wagon offered. 5-series is likely to be gone. Outgoing 535xi wagon is overpriced.

 

Cadillac: CTS - yuck, and expensive

 

Acura: TSX remains to be seen how it is offered/priced.

 

Saab - yeah, what is Saab?

[Guest]

TSX, as expected lame FWD slushbox and underpowered:

 

http://jalopnik.com/5506681/how-acura-ruined-the-tsx-sport-wagon

 

Ugly grille included for free!

[sactojesse]

On a positive note, the MB E350 4-matic wagon is coming back to the U.S., albeit only w/ a slushbox.

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/31/new-york-2010-mercedes-benz-brings-the-e350-4matic-wagon/

 

And the CTS-V wagon will be available w/ a 6MT, although it will likely weigh 4,400 lbs. (two METRIC tons!) and only be RWD:

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/31/cadillac-cts-v-sport-wagon-new-york-2010/

 

V70 getting axed and V50 going FWD and AT only:

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/25/volvo-v70-axed-in-favor-of-front-drive-xc70-s80-v8-going-away/

 

Not sure if V60 wagon will make it to the states:

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/29/next-gen-volvo-v60-wagon-caught-undisguised/

 

Still doesn't leave me with any financially responsible replacement options if my LGT wagon were to need replacement. All would be compromises at best:

 

1) Jetta TDI Sportwagen 6MT -- roomy cargo bay, but FWD only and pretty pokey;

2) WRX 5-door 5MT -- great performance and fairly roomy, but smallish cargo bay because it's not really a wagon;

3) Hyundai Elantra Touring 5MT -- roomy, well-equipped, and reasonably priced, but FWD and underpowered;

4) MazdaSpeed 3 5MT -- great performance and roomy, but FWD and smallish cargo capacity because it's not really a wagon;

5) TSX wagon -- slushbox only and FWD;

6) Audi A4 Avant -- AWD, but smallish and slushbox only;

7) Audi A3 TDI -- FWD and DSG only w/ TDI, plus it's positively Lilliputian and way overpriced compared to its VW platform-mate;

8) BMW 328xi -- smallish and overpriced, but otherwise checks all the boxes.

[UnXpectedError]

Yeah its BS. Theres almost nothing out there. Damn i wish the BMW 328ix was just a bit bigger, it would be perfect.

 

Also if the A4 Avant was a manual and a bit cheaper, it would also be perfect.

 

I just bought a 2010 Passat Wagon, 3.6L VR6 4 Motion. Black on Black. Slusbox only tho. Will post some pics when it arrives in a couple weeks.

Dealer told me my vehicle is likely the last 3.6L 4 Motion Passat to come from Emden Germany across the pond to NA.

 

Passat is gone in 2011, to be replaced in 2012 by an all new, more americanized:spin:version which will be built at a new plant in Tennesee.

[iconoclast]

...none of them have a flat four and symmetrical AWD... Period. This is why it is a travisty that Subaru does not bring their global line-up here! Check out www.subaru-global.com and send comments to Subaru of America and implore them to bring the Legacy diesel sport wagon and the Legacy GT wagon to the US!!!

 

**There was an article yesterday on MSN Autos about how wagons are poised to make a 'comeback' in the US...

[IwannaSportSedan]

...none of them have a flat four and symmetrical AWD... Period. This is why it is a travisty that Subaru does not bring their global line-up here! Check out www.subaru-global.com and send comments to Subaru of America and implore them to bring the Legacy diesel sport wagon and the Legacy GT wagon to the US!!!

 

**There was an article yesterday on MSN Autos about how wagons are poised to make a 'comeback' in the US...

 

The only way wagons will come back in a meaningful way, is if the CAFE standards flip their double standard toward cars, and away from light trucks.

 

CUVs are cheaper to operate on, because the standards are relaxed a bit for light trucks, and the companies incur fewer fines for not meeting fleet averages.

 

CUVs could have been wagons very easily... but they are tall, in spite of aerodynamic efficiency, because it is easier to exploit the rules that way.

[SwedeBits]

The only way wagons will come back in a meaningful way, is if the CAFE standards flip their double standard toward cars, and away from light trucks.

 

Just learned that the Volvo XC70 is classifed as a SUV, which explains why Volvo is dropping the V70 in favor of a FWD XC70. The classification of cars like the Outback and XC70 as SUVs borders on fraud, but it's obvious why the manufacturers resort to this tactic.

 

Another victim of the Law of Unintended Consequences...

[IwannaSportSedan]

The government sets the rules.

 

Then the government doesn't like the way that people work with the rules that are set.

 

Now the rules this week have changed again.

 

No wonder companies don't want to import some products... how can one justify federalization costing millions, and then expose themselves to the rules changing on the whim of the political morons in charge.

 

And here we are at the bottom, being denied products, having prices go up. Having taxes go up. Having cost of living go up. Having unemployment go up, having the value of our dollars go down. Having future government liabilities go up, and leverage the taxpayers for the forseeable future. If this keeps up, we wont' simply over-extend our credit, we won't possibly be able to pay it back, or we'll drain the rest of the world's cash reserves trying, while the regular citizens still work all year to pay their taxes.

 

Who will buy new cars then?

 

This is swirling the drain of big government control over more and more of everyone's personal and economic activities. Healthcare is just the biggest step so far, but by far not the last. Just like every time it has been tried before, and ended up in despotic tyranny, and stagnant, destitute populations.

[The B4]

Just learned that the Volvo XC70 is classifed as a SUV, which explains why Volvo is dropping the V70 in favor of a FWD XC70. The classification of cars like the Outback and XC70 as SUVs borders on fraud, but it's obvious why the manufacturers resort to this tactic.

 

Another victim of the Law of Unintended Consequences...

 

The XC70 has been classified as a light truck for sometime. The V70 is going away because Americans don't lust after wagons the way they do crossovers and SUVs. An Outback has more ground clearance and more capability than the VAST majority of traditional SUV looking crossovers.

[bochinam]

This is swirling the drain of big government control over more and more of everyone's personal and economic activities. Healthcare is just the biggest step so far, but by far not the last. Just like every time it has been tried before, and ended up in despotic tyranny, and stagnant, destitute populations.

 

Take a breather. Europe, Japan...they've got healthcare and wagons.

 

Americans don't lust after wagons the way they do crossovers and SUVs.

 

Bingo.

[IwannaSportSedan]

They don't have CAFE favoring light trucks.

 

And the whole point is that the US is not Europe or Japan.

[SwedeBits]

And here we are at the bottom, being denied products, having prices go up. Having taxes go up. Having cost of living go up. Having unemployment go up, having the value of our dollars go down. Having future government liabilities go up, and leverage the taxpayers for the forseeable future.

 

Taxes are going down, not up, because of the many tax cuts that have been implemented. That's a major reason why the U.S. has the deficit it does. The current unemployment has nothing to do with CAFE or taxes, but is due to the financial crisis. The financial crisis can hardly be blamed on excessive government, but rather the opposite. Cost of living increases have not been higher than 3.8% in any year for the last 10 years, and was actually –0.4% in 2009 (i.e., cost of living went down). The economy has been growing since August, and employment (which always lags economic activity), should start growing this summer.

 

This is swirling the drain of big government control over more and more of everyone's personal and economic activities.

 

If you want small government, may I recommend Somalia? No pesky government taxes or regulations.

 

Now can we talk about wagons?

[bochinam]

They don't have CAFE favoring light trucks.

 

Agree. This is government caving to the American "auto" *edit* truck industry which can't compete making cars.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Taxes are going down, not up, because of the many tax cuts that have been implemented. That's a major reason why the U.S. has the deficit it does. The current unemployment has nothing to do with CAFE or taxes, but is due to the financial crisis. The financial crisis can hardly be blamed on excessive government, but rather the opposite. Cost of living increases have not been higher than 3.8% in any year for the last 10 years, and was actually –0.4% in 2009 (i.e., cost of living went down). The economy has been growing since August, and employment (which always lags economic activity), should start growing this summer.

 

ARE YOU INSANE?

 

The "bush" tax cuts are sunsetting this year, and Obama just passed heath care, which starts taxing now, but doesn't start working for another 4 years.

 

This country has 14 TRILLION dollars in debt. THE GOVERNMENT Did that, BOTH D AND R

 

Actual COA increase last year was 11%, if you factor in gas and groceries, which government figures leave out.

 

GDP, which is economic OUTPUT, not the cost of living, went down for 2009.

 

And increases of ~.1% in GDP since august are getting NOWHERE slow, while costs to american household budgets still increase.

 

Newsflash, UNEMPLOYED PEOPLE DON'T BUY BIG TICKET ITEMS! So unemployment, under-employment, and higher tax rates DO impact people's spending.

 

Have you even taken an economics course, let alone ever passed one?

 

If you want small government, may I recommend Somalia? No pesky government taxes or regulations.

 

Now can we talk about wagons?

 

Typical BS logical-non-equivalence. I want the small government constituted, and LIMITED by the US Constitution, since this is the US we are talking about here.

 

If you want BIG government, go to sweden. They have it there, and obviously you like it. They have wagons there, too. Have fun paying 70%+ income tax, and possibly VAT as well. Good luck.

 

Wagons aren't coming back, and it is due to politics, not due to honest market forces.

 

There will soon be very few wagons to speak of, due to political influence in the forms of cost, and regulation.

[SwedeBits]

The "bush" tax cuts are sunsetting this year, and Obama just passed heath care, which starts taxing now, but doesn't start working for another 4 years.

 

Nobody has paid a dollar in higher taxes yet, so you cannot blame current situation on "rising taxes".

 

Actual COA increase last year was 11%, if you factor in gas and groceries, which government figures leave out.

 

You may want to check your facts:

http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpid1002.pdf

Food and beverages account for 14.8% of the CPI in December 2009. Gasoline accounted for 4.3% of the CPI. CPI-U, the main index is available both with "all items" and "all items less food and energy".

 

For February 2010, CPI-U with all items grew 2.1% over February 2009. With food and energ backed out, the change was 1.3%. You can download the data yourself at http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost?cu (you want CUUR0000SA0 and CUUR0000SA0L1E).

 

GDP, which is economic OUTPUT, not the cost of living, went down for 2009.

 

Yes, because the recession ended in August 2009. GDP has gone up every month since then. The last reported GDP, 4Q2009, showed a 5.6% growth (see http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/national/gdp/gdpnewsrelease.htm).

 

And increases of ~.1% in GDP since august are getting NOWHERE slow, while costs to american household budgets still increase.

 

As I've just demonstrated, GDP is currently growing faster than inflation.

 

Newsflash, UNEMPLOYED PEOPLE DON'T BUY BIG TICKET ITEMS! So unemployment, under-employment, and higher tax rates DO impact people's spending.

 

As I said, employment lags GDP by approximately one year. This summer, you will start seeing a drop in unemployment.

 

Have you even taken an economics course, let alone ever passed one?

 

Funny you should ask. I teach microeconomics at the MBA level and have gotten an A in every econ course I have ever taken, both at the undergradate and graduate level (I have an MA in Economics and an MS in Aeronautics and Astronautics). How about you?

 

Typical BS logical-non-equivalence. I want the small government constituted, and LIMITED by the US Constitution, since this is the US we are talking about here.

 

You're entitled to your political opinion, but you're not entitled to make up facts.

 

If you want BIG government, go to sweden. They have it there, and obviously you like it. They have wagons there, too. Have fun paying 70%+ income tax, and possibly VAT as well. Good luck.

 

Wagons aren't coming back, and it is due to politics, not due to honest market forces.

 

There will soon be very few wagons to speak of, due to political influence in the forms of cost, and regulation.

 

If big government killed wagons, how do you explain the popularity of wagons in Sweden?

[praedet]

Guys, keep it on topic or it goes to the PA...

[SwedeBits]

guys, keep it on topic or it goes to the pa...

 

+1

[bochinam]

Wagons are dead, especially with manual transmissions. It's an image problem reinfored by years GM producting sh!t like:

 

http://www.ajga.org/Newsletter/TheAJGALink/8-5-05/images/Truckster.jpg

 

...and years of Volvo prodicing mommy cars that look like:

 

http://time2pcs.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/usps-apo-fpo-discount-box.jpg

 

 

Once Americans have been marketed into submission, it's over.

[UnXpectedError]

http://www.ajga.org/Newsletter/TheAJGALink/8-5-05/images/Truckster.jpg

 

 

What is that? Looks like the Family Truckster Gene Leve Sold to Chevy Chase in National Lampoons Vacation.......classic:lol:

[UnXpectedError]

Had to do some digging....lol

 

 

The Wagon Queen Family Truckster. LOL:lol:

The Truckster is based on a Ford LTD Country Squire station wagon that has been heavily modified.

 

Deliberately designed in bad taste as an absolutely ridiculous station wagon, and as over-the-top as possible. The Truckster features overdone wood paneling, eight headlights (four on each side in a rectangular cluster) taken from another Crown Victoria/Country Squire but turned upside down, a grille area largely covered by bodywork having only two small openings close to the bumper, (similar to that of a 1982 Oldsmobile Toronado) a separate oil cooler grille (but had no oil cooler), large chrome hubcaps with a huge crown logo, and a badly-placed gas tank access door (in the front passenger fender). Lampooning American cars of the 1970s, the engine dieselized (knocked and rattled, in a supposedly brand-new car), and the car also had an airbag made out of a household trash bag.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagon_Queen_Family_Truckster

[The B4]

Nobody has paid a dollar in higher taxes yet, so you cannot blame current situation on "rising taxes".

 

 

 

You may want to check your facts:

http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpid1002.pdf

Food and beverages account for 14.8% of the CPI in December 2009. Gasoline accounted for 4.3% of the CPI. CPI-U, the main index is available both with "all items" and "all items less food and energy".

 

For February 2010, CPI-U with all items grew 2.1% over February 2009. With food and energ backed out, the change was 1.3%. You can download the data yourself at http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/surveymost?cu (you want CUUR0000SA0 and CUUR0000SA0L1E).

 

 

 

Yes, because the recession ended in August 2009. GDP has gone up every month since then. The last reported GDP, 4Q2009, showed a 5.6% growth (see http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/national/gdp/gdpnewsrelease.htm).

 

 

 

As I've just demonstrated, GDP is currently growing faster than inflation.

 

 

 

As I said, employment lags GDP by approximately one year. This summer, you will start seeing a drop in unemployment.

 

 

 

Funny you should ask. I teach microeconomics at the MBA level and have gotten an A in every econ course I have ever taken, both at the undergradate and graduate level (I have an MA in Economics and an MS in Aeronautics and Astronautics). How about you?

 

 

 

You're entitled to your political opinion, but you're not entitled to make up facts.

 

 

 

If big government killed wagons, how do you explain the popularity of wagons in Sweden?

 

[IwannaSportSedan]

If big government killed wagons, how do you explain the popularity of wagons in Sweden?

 

Since this is the only bit that is on-topic, and since we've been "warned"...

 

I'll simply say this... Big governments don't necessarily make exactly the same decisions. That doesn't necessitate that one or the other is not leftist big government.

 

Sweden doesn't run their auto regulations the way the US does, Sweden doesn't have CAFE, and doesn't penalize cars more than light trucks.

 

 

 

And I've aced every economics course I've taken, too. 4 undergrad courses at two different schools, due to transfer.

 

And forgive me if I don't believe the government stats which often don't tell the whole truth, or don't hold up in context of real life budgeting.

 

My taxes have gone up I paid more for 2009 than I have ever paid before, as a percentage of income. My income has gone down, both real, and inflation-adjusted with the dilution of the currency. It also allowed me to keep a job. No raise and furlough days off are better than the unemployment line right now. My wife has lost a high paying job 2 years ago, which cut our household income in half then, and it has gone slightly down further since then. I have heard many other similar stories of unemployment and under-employment, which stands to reason when the unemployment rate pretty much doubles in two years.

 

My retirement has taken a hit, my real estate value has also. Yet every monthly bill I pay has not gone down, but up. Some just a little... others like government-monopoly-allowed utilities such as water and electricity, have gone up more than 14% in the last few months, with little or no recourse.

 

Groceries are costing significantly more than they did 12-18 months ago, and gasoline is approaching 3$ a gallon again, as oil breaks near 90$ a barrel... for no apparent supply and demand reason, merely speculation. There is no shortage, just a high price, and big-government proponents almost unversally clamor for an economically-suicidal fuel tax as revenues from current gasoline taxes flag with more fuel efficient cars, and less discretionary driving cutting fuel demand.

 

And just because the tax policy is just kicking in now, doesn't mean it has no bearing. People have to plan for that, and can see how big of a gun they are looking down the barrel of. This country is spending itself into oblivion, and has more than 120 TRILLION dollars in forseeable unfunded liability with all the entitlement benefits it has promised, in addition to the payable debt.

 

What happens when Moody's down-grades the US credit rating, and all of the sudden it costs more to service the country's debt? Who pays that?

 

Where this affects people on the ground, it limits demand for new cars, and it also re-inforces the notion that customers have to get the very most value for their new car dollar, and get new or used vehicles that serve ALL of the household needs, within the budget. That is usually not just a toy that barely has any practicality, most of the time.

 

Not only that, but the banking crisis has tightened consumer credit to a high degree, and it is much harder to get consumer debt for vehicles that used to be easier debt. Vetting people to make sure they can pay, and that the vehicle is legitimate collateral has tightened significantly, which one could argue shouldn't have been as loose as it was previously, including the sub-prime mortgage debacle, which had government fingerprints all over it.

 

And CUVs, due to the CAFE classification for light trucks, are burdened less, and thus pushed by auto companies more, and people buy the better value deal.

 

A car has to either sell well enough to pay the CAFE fines, or be de-contented and less powerful, and less well equipped to meet the costs and technical aspects of getting higher fleet average MPG that is demanded of cars.

 

Tell me exactly where I am wrong there, mr. MBA, who should already KNOW this.

 

People are going to have increasing difficulty buying any new cars, under more and more budgetary pressure, and value is going to continue to be more and more important to that buying decision. Wagons, and to a lesser extent minivans are the vehicle formats at the most dis-advantage to the CAFE preference for light truck classified CUVs, and the SUVs that preceded them for the last 10-15 years. Coupes have also borne the brunt of the SUV/CUV migration, and Sedans have survived, but largely become milquetoast boring, and dollar for dollar less well equipped than their CUV alternatives. Take a look at Camry or Corolla. Honda Accord, and the rest. The products have stagnated, while the companies offer several lines of CUV instead.

 

Take Ford as an example for the last few years. 500 failed to inspire, so they renamed it Taurus again, just to get some name recognition, at least. Now they have a new car that is huge, but reported to be a better car, and more expensive than any previous mainline Ford sedan. The SHO tops out over 40 grand... which a couple of short years ago, was Lincoln's territory.

 

On the other hand, the Taurus X languished, even as pretty much a Subaru Outback clone. For the new version, they made it a boxy CUV, the Flex, and lincoln got the MKT along with MKS. The Fusion spawned the Edge, and Lincoln got MKX along side MKZ. All that in addition to the Mazda 6, CX7 and CX9... all sharing the same platform. Ford already has the Escape CUV... and now Explorer is going to be FWD-based and unibody, as well. Just under the blue oval, there are no more wagons... Taurus wagon was a regular sight up until the mid-90s... when the SUV craze started, and Explorer became the banner carrier. Now the blue oval has 2 sedans, but FOUR CUVs on-line or coming up. Mazda, Mercury, and Lincoln adds 4 sedans but 7 CUVs between them.

 

Subaru had a wagon, now barely a 5-door hatchback bodystyle, two sedans, and three vehicles classified as light trucks.

 

When companies stock multiple variants of similar things... they sell. People buy on value, but they also tend to buy what they can touch and take home that day. So setting things in front of them, and then telling them how much they get for their dollar, tends to sell CUVs, and SUVs before that.

 

You can credit decades of consumerism training, and sniffing out sale prices and good deals for that. American consumers are very finely honed at this point, and instant gratification has been promised to them, and they want it. Even as they become more wary of fiscal pressures, they still want a good deal, and they want to take it home today.

[praedet]

B4, SwedeBits, and Iwanna...

 

Last time. Quoting a COMPLETELY off-topic post is the same as posting it...

[IwannaSportSedan]

I am not trying to nitpick or cause trouble, but I was talking about wagons there, including the social, economic and political reasoning behind the lack of wagons in the marketplace.

 

I made a significant effort to make sure that I was relating concepts back to the topic.

[Naylor]

ah, i love News & Rumors threads...it's like watching trekkies and star wars geeks fist fight.