Small suspension bits for a daily driver?

[Mindspin311]

Ok, so I just got done installing RCE T1's on my LGT. Next will probably be sway bars so I can keep the T1s on the softside while still controlling body roll.

 

My next step with suspension, Im not sure. I see all sorts of bushings and braces, but Im not sure what I really need.

 

The car is a daily driver and I live in the northeast, so Im not trying to build the stiffest LGT out there. But, Im always a fan of a better handling car. Do I want to look into the LCA bushings, strut bars and underbody braces? Or are they a bit overkill for a DD?

[jagcars26]

Strut bars would be last on my list.

Sway bars+1

[caramall2]

Sways -- start with just the rear and see how you like it (will be a little bit of oversteer probably), then add the front. My 2 cents.

 

Remember, sway bars also "stiffen" things up because they connect the two sides...e.g. as you compress on spring, the other side starts to compress some. As such, going over a perfect speed bump that affects both sides may feel the same, but a single sided pot hole (e.g. you just hit it with the left tire) will feel a slight bit stiffer---suspension is less "independent".

 

Don't let that scare you off...I have pretty stiff coilovers (good quality ones though) and sways on terrible roads.

 

 

P.S. I think the offset LCAs are good too...just about to put some on mine (AVO).

[Underdog]

Ok, so I just got done installing RCE T1's on my LGT. Next will probably be sway bars so I can keep the T1s on the softside while still controlling body roll.

 

My next step with suspension, Im not sure. I see all sorts of bushings and braces, but Im not sure what I really need.

 

The car is a daily driver and I live in the northeast, so Im not trying to build the stiffest LGT out there. But, Im always a fan of a better handling car. Do I want to look into the LCA bushings, strut bars and underbody braces? Or are they a bit overkill for a DD?

 

I would say LCA Bushings and a rear swaybar should be the minimum, assuming you already have better-than-stock tires. The AVO LCA bushings (or group.n alternative, recently discovered) will help stabilize your suspension geometry over bumps at the expense of slightly increased NVH.

 

A mild rear swaybar will help balance the weight transfer between the front and rear axles. This will give the car a more neutral feel in cornering without as much "push".

 

The next step towards performance and away from comfort would be putting in front and rear swaybars. By choosing the right diameter bars you can balance the under/oversteer and tighten up the front suspension even further than you did with the Tarmacs (which spring rate did you get BTW?) This will give you increased control in transitions at the expense of suspension independence (comfort). Also, when upgrading to stiffer swaybars you are walking the line between improving and reducing available traction. I went with the adjustable whiteline bars and with the tarmacs in I am thinking of putting the rear bar to stiff or replacing the front bar with the stocker, in order to achieve my ideal setup.

 

The strut braces will help stiffen the chassis and the lower arm bars will even further improve the suspension geometry over bumps and during cornering. Both will have an NVH trade-off that puts them last on the list. You will be able to tell if you need them after a few months on the swaybars and stuff.

[Mindspin311]

I would say LCA Bushings and a rear swaybar should be the minimum, assuming you already have better-than-stock tires. The AVO LCA bushings (or group.n alternative, recently discovered) will help stabilize your suspension geometry over bumps at the expense of slightly increased NVH.

 

A mild rear swaybar will help balance the weight transfer between the front and rear axles. This will give the car a more neutral feel in cornering without as much "push".

 

The next step towards performance and away from comfort would be putting in front and rear swaybars. By choosing the right diameter bars you can balance the under/oversteer and tighten up the front suspension even further than you did with the Tarmacs (which spring rate did you get BTW?) This will give you increased control in transitions at the expense of suspension independence (comfort). Also, when upgrading to stiffer swaybars you are walking the line between improving and reducing available traction. I went with the adjustable whiteline bars and with the tarmacs in I am thinking of putting the rear bar to stiff or replacing the front bar with the stocker, in order to achieve my ideal setup.

 

The strut braces will help stiffen the chassis and the lower arm bars will even further improve the suspension geometry over bumps and during cornering. Both will have an NVH trade-off that puts them last on the list. You will be able to tell if you need them after a few months on the swaybars and stuff.

 

Whoa! Thanks for the information. I got the 400/400 rates on the T1s.

 

Which rear bar do you think I should go with? Ive heard a lot of talk of the JDM rear bar, isnt that same as AVOs rear bar?

[Underdog]

JDM bar typically refers to the JDM Subaru OE rear swaybar.

 

It is tough to recommend a swaybar. I went with the whiteline bars because they are good construction, include poly bushings and are adjustable. There are four possible combinations, eight if you include the stock bars. I also went with Kartboy solid endlinks to eliminate as much slop in the swaybars movement as possible.

 

Generally it is a good idea to start with a mild rear bar because they hold their value if you decide to sell it and upgrade after a while.

 

You should also be very aware of running good tires and your alignment.

[Mindspin311]

Yea, I need to get an alignment this week after installing the T1's.

 

Tires, hopefully in the next couple months Ill have new summer wheels and tires.

[goneskiian]

So the T1's didn't take enough body roll out for you?

 

I was wondering how much affect they would have.

 

Have you written up a review for them yet?

 

Thanks!

[Mindspin311]

The T1's definitely took a lot of the body roll out of the car. But, they are set to a conservative street setting right now. Given the conditions of the road here in Philly, I decided to set the T1s a bit softer.

 

So, to combat what body roll is left, Im looking into a rear bar.

[Mindspin311]

As far as a review, Ill be posting one in a week or so. I want some more time with them 1st. I have a feeling that UnderDog will put out a better review than me tho.

 

I just put them on and knew they were better, and thats all Im concerned with. Unlike UnderDog who will probably spend the next few weeks tweaking the everliving daylights out of them.

[Underdog]

 

Don't underestimate my laziness!

 

I come from an automotive/mechanical background and this stuff is my hobby/obsession which is why I enjoy writing ad nauseum about it. Just last night when I was posting I was being made fun of by both my wife and our friend who was visiting for the weekend.

 

As far as tweaking damping and such, I learned a valuable lesson when I was messing with my Konis. Originally I thought that "adjustable" meant you could make the car ride like a Buick or like an Evo by the turn of the knob, which really isn't the case. The damping, spring rate, and suspension travel all work together to give you the baseline comfort and performance of the vehicle.

 

With Konis or Tarmacs the adjustment only works on the rebound damping which controls how quickly your wheel/suspension returns to equilibrium after a bump. What this means is no matter how stiff you have it set, the compression damping is the same so hitting the bump will feel the same. However, hitting the bump (which compresses the suspension) is only half of the story.

 

When the suspension is compressed and "trying" to return to equilibrium, this is where rebound damping comes in. When I first drove with my Konis/Swifts I thought bumps were a little harsh so I tried making the struts a little softer. The ride was very plush but hitting bumps still felt awful for some reason. Progressively I started making the damping stiffer and stiffer to see what the effect would be, and I found that, up to a point, the comfort actually improved as the rebound damping got stiffer.

 

I deduced that this was because with soft rebound damping the wheel/suspension would slam back to the ground after hitting a bump, whereas the stiffer settings allowed the wheel/suspension to return to equilibrium at a more controlled rate.

 

Now, the Tarmacs are coming as a matched set as opposed to the Koni/Swifts so the damping range should be much more appropriate for the springs, meaning less extreme mismatching at either end of the dial.

 

The goal with any spring/shock combo is to isolate the body from bumps and to keep the wheels in contact with the road at all times, so it's all a balancing act. I would strongly encourage you to keep a small notepad in the car and write down your impressions of your current settings over the course of a few weeks. Then post up, or make your own decision and tweak the settings. That is one of the great things about adjustable suspensions, you don't have to settle for just "good enough".

[Underdog]

Wife is on the phone so I thought I'd elaborate a bit further:

 

Many coilovers are marketed to make them sound like you can go from daily driver to track star with the turn of a knob. In the case of a quality coilover (like the KW/T1's) this can be true, although stepping up to 500/500 springs would certainly be an even better way to get performance.

 

However, the reason this works for track driving is because you don't have the same road imperfections that we do in daily driving.

 

On a track you can dial the rebound damping all the way up and it will tighten up the car in transitions, helping to keep the car flat when slaloming. Imagine turning left and then quickly right... one side of the car is compressing and then rebounding. With stiffer rebound damping you are keeping the car planted.

 

However, on public roads in the North East you are going to put yourself in danger by going to stiff with damping.

 

Imagine you are taking a turn at an aggressive speed. In the middle of your turn there is a bump, even a small bump. If your rebound damping is too stiff then the wheel will not be able to follow/return to the ground quickly enough to maintain contact with the road after the bump and you will feel a side-step of the car. If your speed is too high, you may spin out/lose control (depending on other variables).

 

Thinking about comfort, imagine you are going down a road with a series of small bumps. If your rebound damping is too high the corners of the car will be jostled each time you clear a bump because the corner of the car "falls" until the wheel makes contact with the road.

 

With the right match of compression and rebound damping, along with a spring rate that is appropriate for the weight and available suspension travel, you can achieve a very comfortable and very sporty ride.

[katalyst]

well written and informative posts

 

thanks underdog

[Underdog]

You're welcome! It's cathartic to write this stuff out since I'm usually trapped in my head thinking about it.

 

BTW, call me Rick. The car is "underdog"...

[goormove]

Hey mindspin - it's goormove from East falls. I am in a similar situation with the rear bar - maybe we could talk some about ordering 2 different ones and trying them both out. I was looking at the JDM with the kartboy endlinks and the AVO - I think I discounted the white as I have stock suspension, but would be willing to try it after the above posts by Underdog, still with the upgraded endlinks. Let's chat some!

[goneskiian]

Thanks for the great posts Rick!

 

I do understand this somewhat. I do some mountain biking and have played around with the suspension fork on my bike. It's more adjustable than the T1's!!! It's actually compression and rebound adjustable.

 

Mindspin - I can tell you the JDM rear bar made quite a difference for me on the stock suspension. OK, one that I got used to fairly quickly but it was quite noticeable at first. Definitely sharpened turn it.

 

If you're concerned about comfort I'd start with the JDM rear bar. Like others have said if you go with a super fat matching set you will loose some of the independent action of your "4 wheel independent suspension" and thus loose comfort as well.

[snow05gtRI]

I just got the JDM 20mm rear sway (thats the stock JDM one) installed 2 weeks ago on my stock suspension. I am very happy with the results. The rear end feels much more planted and does not roll nearly as much as it used to. it has upped oversteer a little bit and given the car a much lighter feel. for the first few days driving my work commute I had to readjust on some corners because I did not feel the usual big weight shift. the turn in feeling has improved.

 

i'm putting on pinks/bilsteins as soon as I can (already have them in hand) so I am interested how the sway will interact with the new suspension

[toolbox1]

I'm in a similar situation....My Subaru is my daily driver...I got the good old government check (TAX RETURN!!!) and I want to upgrade my sways....I was thinking of going Cusco front and rear but it may be overkill considering my suspension is stock...any thoughts??

[snow05gtRI]

sways are a good first upgrade.

[captainhook]

sways are a good first upgrade.

 

+1 add some endlinks too

[toolbox1]

absolutly...I wouldnt add Sways with out them...based on it being a daily driver...and im not too aggressive at the wheel...should I start with just a rear bar? front bar? entire package? Ive done quite a bit of reading on specific brands (Cobb, Cusco, whiteline) just not sure what to pull the trigger on

[rhe]

I have Cusco fr (23mm) and rr (21mm) with BilsteinHD/pinks, kartboy end links, and AVO rear reinforcement brackets on my daily driver ... and am very pleased with the planted feel of the car on the on & off ramps.

[snow05gtRI]

If you're going to just do a rear bar, I would only recommend the JDM 20mm rear sway (this is the stock rear sway on the JDM version of our cars) ... if you're going with anything else they all seemed to be matched sets, so I'd buy a F/R to be balanced.

[c-lo]

I"ve got a 21mm rear sway on my wagon along with upper strut towers in front and back. handles great and it's my DD

[LRegvall]

I installed an AVO 20mm RSB (with stock endlinks- don't know why you'd need to switch them out - and stock FSB) and new tires first. The handling was dramatically improved. The car became very tossable. The stock set up was actually kind of treacherous when pushed. The simple addition of the RSB set soft gave the car lift throttle rotation with totally neutral handling (equal front and rear slip angles) with the throttle down. The problem after that was the mid corner bump with the stock dampers. Because of the neutral balance, the car could be controlled easily but it shouldn't have been so jiggly.

 

I put on BC Racing coilovers (5/7s) to try to deal with that inadequate damping. I think the BC Rs suffer from inadequate travel relative to the T1s and I'm still playing with ride height, damper setting and preload to get the ride balance right. They do control damping well but think they could use more travel to deal with bumps (I've come to realize that 85% of my driving is over roads that are crappy). I would also say that because they lowered the car's center of gravity they upset the roll balance a bit. It's harder to get the lift throttle rotation that I like. I will need to tighten up the RSB or increase the rear ride height to restore the roll balance.

 

Overall, I think the roll balance is the most important part of handling "feel." Starting with tht RSB makes sense to me.