LittleBlueGT Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 I have learned the hard way, and so have a few others. Now that another local has blown a stock block I think this problem should be addressed. How do you know if your engine is experiencing detonation (knocking)? -you log it! Seems simple, but many people miss a few important bits of info. Yes all this info is in threads like Subaru's Knock Control Strategy Explained at RomRaider. But let's make it a bit simpler so even the basic guy that wants a strong running stage1 or stage2 can figure it out. First myth (that seems to get carried around, and expounded upon from time to time, even by people that should (and maybe do) know better: "My car is showing positive DA (Dynamic Advance), I guess all is well" WRONG! That statement could be true, but just as easily could be false. Let's look at an example: Here is a little log showing DA, I have heard others say, "look at how happy the ECU is, it is adding 8 degrees of timing almost all of the time!" http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg194/littlebluegt/DA-2.jpg Here is the exact same log, but this time FBKC (Feed Back Knock Correction) is added to the list of logged items: http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg194/littlebluegt/DA-2FBKC.jpg Same log, same everything, but now it is readily apparent that at 5219 rpm the ECU heard what it thought was a knock event, and pulled 2 degrees of timing as a result. That same info could be seen in the first log, but it is a bit harder to see. First of all I know that my high load DA table is all 8s, so at high load if my DA is anything but 8 degrees, I know there is a problem. Second, one can graph out the timing, and from there it is easy to see that the ECU pulled 2 degrees of timing. "But it was easy to see the pulled timing, even w/o logging FBKC." In this log that may be true, but it is not always that easy to see. For one thing, not all tunes are set up the same (not saying one way is better then another). This can get more complicated, but lets just leave it at that. I think for the "Joe Blow" that just wants to quickly see if things are safe it is much easier to log FBKC and be done with it. Of course one should also make sure their IAM is at 1.0, and it is a good idea to look at one's learning view. All are addressed in other threads. Cliff notes: 1) log or learn how to log, or have a buddy log your car, even if you are just running COBB stage2 (our gas doesn't even like COBB's tune) 2) if you only have COBB logging ability, then learn how to read the logs properly to determine if there is any knock. 3) RomRaider is the best tool IMO to use for logging, use it to log FBKC 4) if FBKC is 0 for a WOT run, IAM is at 1.0, and your learning view loks clean, then it is pretty safe to say your engine saw no knock for that logged run Hope this saves a few blocks. Full tune of 68HTA, KSTech 73 MAF, Racer X FMIC and ID1000s................by the DataLog Mafia!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeeeeeYa Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Good thread as usual LBGT. But if there is such a thing as DA, FBKC, and all the rest of Subaru's knock handling ability, for which it is much praised, then why the concern? There are even special maps for when knock gets so bad all the normal maps don't work anymore. Given the variability in fuels these days, added to all the environmental variables, it would seem impossible for any car to be det free all the time. Back when I got my AP the Cobb maps almost always had some pulled timing. Later, on TDC eTunes the same pattern was there. No one ever said a couple of degrees of DA being pulled was terrible. The only warning was to make sure it never went into MINUS DA. Is the point of this thread to assist in the development of a well rounded tune? Or is it pointing out that having anything other than perfect DA is a motor killer. If this motor is that sensitive and that fragile then a) Subaru's knock control is a joke, and b) abandon all hope for a long lasting turbo motor because perfect DA all the time ain't gonna happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleBlueGT Posted October 6, 2008 Author Share Posted October 6, 2008 Good thread as usual LBGT. But if there is such a thing as DA, FBKC, and all the rest of Subaru's knock handling ability, for which it is much praised, then why the concern? There are even special maps for when knock gets so bad all the normal maps don't work anymore. Given the variability in fuels these days, added to all the environmental variables, it would seem impossible for any car to be det free all the time. Back when I got my AP the Cobb maps almost always had some pulled timing. Later, on TDC eTunes the same pattern was there. No one ever said a couple of degrees of DA being pulled was terrible. The only warning was to make sure it never went into MINUS DA. Is the point of this thread to assist in the development of a well rounded tune? Or is it pointing out that having anything other than perfect DA is a motor killer. If this motor is that sensitive and that fragile then a) Subaru's knock control is a joke, and b) abandon all hope for a long lasting turbo motor because perfect DA all the time ain't gonna happen. I blew my motor running 2 - 4 degrees of positive DA. IMO if you have less then perfect DA for anything more then about 10% of your WOT runs something should be changed. We can (and likely will) get more complicated, but I want to keep this thread simple for the noobs so they know what to look for. The DA is all about how the tuner set it up. You could have 12 degrees called for, and then only running 6, that would be bad. Remember, that Subaru designed their knock control strategy around an engine making a lot less whp, the more you make, the less room their is for knock. Full tune of 68HTA, KSTech 73 MAF, Racer X FMIC and ID1000s................by the DataLog Mafia!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiGT Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Thanks LBGT. I just started using RomRaider, and also using much better gas. I'm going to compare my old tune to one I recently got, and see which one the car is happier with. Then we'll adjust from there. Since I'm new to RR, which parmeters are best to select for the most informative logs? I can see what you have posted above, but those might just be representative of what you are describing for this thread. Many Shuvs and Zuuls knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Slor that day, I can tell you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeeeeeYa Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Oh, I wasn't arguing with you, I totally agree. My intent was to provide you the opportunity to say what you just did . There is far too little emphasis put on what you are highlighting here. People are tuning up a storm everywhere with ST, Enginuity, Romraider, cable this and cable that, and are largely unaware of how disastrous their actions can be. Familiarity is breeding contempt for the repercussions. You may save a bunch of engines if people read and take this seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j255c Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 one thing to account for is not all tuners flatten their knock correction/da tables either to one number. 06 TB EVO IX SE stock turbo monster subaru hater Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiGT Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 (edited) Oh, I wasn't arguing with you, I totally agree. My intent was to provide you the opportunity to say what you just did . There is far too little emphasis put on what you are highlighting here. People are tuning up a storm everywhere with ST, Enginuity, Romraider, cable this and cable that, and are largely unaware of how disastrous their actions can be. Familiarity is breeding contempt for the repercussions. You may save a bunch of engines if people read and take this seriously. I, for one, will always have a professional tune on my car. I might play around with AccesTunerRace(after I get my wideband;)), but the initial tuning of any hardware changes will be done by a reputable pro, on a dyno. Too much $$$ at stake to attempt otherwise. Edited October 6, 2008 by SubiGT Many Shuvs and Zuuls knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Slor that day, I can tell you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleBlueGT Posted October 6, 2008 Author Share Posted October 6, 2008 (edited) Thanks LBGT. I just started using RomRaider, and also using much better gas. I'm going to compare my old tune to one I recently got, and see which one the car is happier with. Then we'll adjust from there. Since I'm new to RR, which parmeters are best to select for the most informative logs? I can see what you have posted above, but those might just be representative of what you are describing for this thread. Use FBKC to determine if their is knock. But first check your IAM, and it is a good idea to look at your learning view. You can log Fine Learning Correction (FLC), but IMO it is better to just look at it before you log. You can also use knock sum to determine if the ECU thinks there is knock, is some cases (not really WOT stuff) it can be very useful as there are no filters applied like there are for learned knock and FBKC. Edited October 6, 2008 by LittleBlueGT Full tune of 68HTA, KSTech 73 MAF, Racer X FMIC and ID1000s................by the DataLog Mafia!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubiGT Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Thanks. +1 Sticky Many Shuvs and Zuuls knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Slor that day, I can tell you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infamous1 Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Stuck... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j255c Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 excellent work. 06 TB EVO IX SE stock turbo monster subaru hater Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSFW Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 You mention the "learning view" utility but I think it deserves a little more detail. And I could use a sanity check on my own understanding of it - so if this is wrong please let me know: The Learning View utility will display your Fine Learning Knock Correction (FLKC) table, which shows the RPM/Load areas in which the ECU has learned to pull timing in response to knock. It will also show your Ignition Advance Multiplier (IAM), which should be 1.0 but will drop if your car has experienced significant knock. Learning View connects to your ECU using an OpenPort 1.X or compatible cable, much like RomRaider's logger. The VAG-COM cable will probably also work, and OpenPort 2.0 compatibility is likely coming soon. For more information, and a link to download the Learning View utility: http://www.romraider.com/forum/topic2772.html If you are tuning your car, you should use this periodically to see if your engine has experienced knock when you were not actively logging. If you see evidence of significant knock, it's time to reconsider your tune. The stock tune will show small amounts of knock correction (-.35, -1.05, etc) occasionally in various cells, these are not cause for great concern. But IAM under 1.0, or larger corrections in the FLKC table, should be investigated. The Learning View thread (linked above) has a lot more information and examples to show how to interpret Learning View results. Learning View also shows your fuel trims, which are primarily of interest if you have changed your intake tract or fuel injectors. If they're way off (more than 5%) you may want to address that, but this is another subject for another thread. Note that resetting your ECU (which happens during reflashing, for most ECUs) will set IAM to 0.5 (or whatever your ROM has configured for the initial IAM) and will clear the FLKC table. Don't panic if you see a low IAM soon after a reflash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlightlyEvil Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 This thread is great. As "Joe Bloe" (european spelling) tuning and the variables involved always seem shrouded in the same sort of confusion that prevents me from reading sheet music - I dunno what all the abbreviations and symbols mean and I don't care enough to sift through it. So a straight forward explanation like this is really helpful. Thanks! Logged my protune and IAT at 1 I see 0 through the entirety of the WOT runs for FBKC so that's one more step on the road to feeling confident in my car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j255c Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Thats what these guys are here for. This is a great thread for the community. 06 TB EVO IX SE stock turbo monster subaru hater Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merchgod Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 One thing that is commonly missed is that changes to FBKC, changes to FLKC, and changes to the IAM are all three separate knock responses and only one is active at any given time. So, if you look at only FBKC, you are not getting the whole picture. FBKC is not the response to ALL knock events, it is the response to knock events when it happens to be active. This is all based on a number of conditions that are outlined in the knock control sticky. That is, the ECU, at any given time, is "poised" to respond to knock events using only one of the three knock control elements OR it is "poised" to do nothing at all in response to a knock event (say at low RPM). Another common misconception is that the ECU will make a change to FLKC or the IAM based on FBKC. This is false. The ECU could care less what FBKC is at any given moment - it could be -2, -12, doesn't matter, it is not going to change FLKC or IAM at all. That is because FBKC, based on those conditions in which it is active, is the proper response given those conditions. Only changes to the FLKC and the IAM are linked. IAM can be thought of as a means of get timing roughly where you need to be and then FLKC does the finer adjustments. This is why the entire FLKC table is cleared when the IAM changes. It is more difficult to determine when the FLKC changes because when you log it, you are logging the applied (learned) correction for the currently accessed cell. You can log 'fine learning table offset' and if the offset stays the same and FLKC changes, then a change was made to that cell. Easier, as already mentioned, would be to check a learning view before and after the run. With the latest RomRaider logger definitions, I added the 'knock sum' parameter. All USDM Legacy GTs support this parameter. It is easily your best bet to track knock events because it deals with the knock signal which is exactly what determines a knock "event". Changes to FBKC, FLKC and the IAM are all based on this same knock signal. If your ECU support the knock sum, this is the only thing that I would log (while doing a learning view snapshot before and after the run). It will also improve your sampling rate because it is a 1-byte parameter. The only downside is that it will not increment with consecutive knock events, but this is not generally an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleBlueGT Posted October 6, 2008 Author Share Posted October 6, 2008 Thanks for all the interest and responses, especially merchgod. I am not sure if I should change the initial post. All the info about knock sum, FLKC, learning view etc, are things that anybody that tunes their car should know. But from all the people that are running someone else's tune, or are thinking of tweaking their own tune (ATR) I think this is the basic info they should start with. From all my (limited) experience if you are doing a WOT run (assuming you already checked learning view and IAM) and you want to see if it is safe, FBKC will do that for you. I know there are parameters in the ECU saying what to use when, and I have experimented a lttle bit with them, but if you do a WOT run, and FBKC is 0, pretty safe to say you had no knock. If Joe Bloe logs knock sum, he may get a little anxious when he sees all sorts of increases to that value at transitions and low throttle driving. This may not be all that serious. To me this is the important part: If a buddy comes over and says, "I got 10 mins, make sure my tune is safe", this is what I would do: -IAM at 1.0............................Check -learning view looks decent (prefferably all 0s in the high load column)..........................Check -I would also make sure AFR learning (also in learning view) is within 3%....Check -take it out and beat on it, WOT runs, lots of high rpm shifts, etc.......If I saw very little FBKC (maybe the odd little bit occasionally after a shift) I would tell him his tune looks reasonably solid There is of course much more to learn, and I suppose we can talk about it for those that wish to learn more, but the threads in RomRaider already do that very well. I just think the average noob needs to get the idea that positive DA is good, leave it at that, then wonder why cylinder #2 is down on compression. Full tune of 68HTA, KSTech 73 MAF, Racer X FMIC and ID1000s................by the DataLog Mafia!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec B Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 ^ Thanks again for all the information that us noobs really need to understand. With all this talk of FBKC, DA and IAM, can't you just cut to the chase and study the timing column? Please keep in mind that I am a complete tuning noob, but after my WOT logs the first thing I look for in the log is a consistent increase in timing throughout the run. If there is a hiccup in the timing advance (say 1 or 2 degrees), that signals to me that there was a knock event. Am I over simplifying it? Using your simple chart above as an example, at 5219 RPM your timing went from 17 to 15 and FBKC registered -2, makes sense to me. However, and this is the part that confuses me, even though FBKC remains at -2, the timing acually advances to 15.5 all the way up to 18? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleBlueGT Posted October 6, 2008 Author Share Posted October 6, 2008 ^ Thanks again for all the information that us noobs really need to understand. With all this talk of FBKC, DA and IAM, can't you just cut to the chase and study the timing column? Please keep in mind that I am a complete tuning noob, but after my WOT logs the first thing I look for in the log is a consistent increase in timing throughout the run. If there is a hiccup in the timing advance (say 1 or 2 degrees), that signals to me that there was a knock event. Am I over simplifying it? Using your simple chart above as an example, at 5219 RPM your timing went from 17 to 15 and FBKC registered -2, makes sense to me. However, and this is the part that confuses me, even though FBKC remains at -2, the timing acually advances to 15.5 all the way up to 18? FBKC is taking 2 degrees off of where it would normally be if there was no knock. It is very easy to see the knock if you graph it out, usually. The trouble with just looking at the timing, is the odd time you wil get knock right when you go to WOT, then there is no previous line to look at to see the knock. Using FBKC makes it much simpler, trust me. Full tune of 68HTA, KSTech 73 MAF, Racer X FMIC and ID1000s................by the DataLog Mafia!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 (edited) First, good thread, LBGT. I, for one, will always have a professional tune on my car. I might play around with AccesTunerRace(after I get my wideband;)), but the initial tuning of any hardware changes will be done by a reputable pro, on a dyno. Too much $$$ at stake to attempt otherwise. That's good, but a professional tune does not equal a good tune. Often it does, but certainly not always. Safety, especially boost control for 4th/5th gears often gets compromised. Anyone paying for a pro tune needs to log it.. at least once... as outlined by LBGT above: If a buddy comes over and says, "I got 10 mins, make sure my tune is safe", this is what I would do: -IAM at 1.0............................Check -learning view looks decent (prefferably all 0s in the high load column)..........................Check -I would also make sure AFR learning (also in learning view) is within 3%....Check -take it out and beat on it, WOT runs, lots of high rpm shifts, etc.......If I saw very little FBKC (maybe the odd little bit occasionally after a shift) I would tell him his tune looks reasonably solid I would not have peace of mind with a protune and never having checked it. Edited October 6, 2008 by Legend My '05 LGT My '07 Supercharged Shelby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f1anatic Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 i have -0.5 knock correction when cruising on cold nights but getting positive when i step on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleBlueGT Posted October 6, 2008 Author Share Posted October 6, 2008 i have -0.5 knock correction when cruising on cold nights but getting positive when i step on it. post up a log. Full tune of 68HTA, KSTech 73 MAF, Racer X FMIC and ID1000s................by the DataLog Mafia!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 6, 2008 Share Posted October 6, 2008 Great post LBGT. My twinscroll freak car got freshly street tuned by edmundu. The tune has been dialed back so the WOT runs were mostly clean during street pulls. Took the car to road course last weekend and it performed amazingly. However after second day on the track it learned to pull timing in few areas... obviously could not log on the track, but here is how fine learning correction learned table looks like after (see attached pic). Comments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleBlueGT Posted October 6, 2008 Author Share Posted October 6, 2008 Great post LBGT. My twinscroll freak car got freshly street tuned by edmundu. The tune has been dialed back so the WOT runs were mostly clean during street pulls. Took the car to road course last weekend and it performed amazingly. However after second day on the track it learned to pull timing in few areas... obviously could not log on the track, but here is how fine learning correction learned table looks like after (see attached pic). Comments? Yep, got a few: First, you may want to rescale the learning table for higher loads. Second, when displaying the view on ST it only shows the RT data, as in the data in the table, so if you rescaled it, and had a different basemap in when it is synced with the car it wouldn't show the new scale (hence why it is both a B and a RT map) Third, I wouldn't worry about anything on there but the last column (unless the numbers were greater). The learned column was higher load (that is why it should be rescaled, was it at 1.61 load, or at 3.2 load? big difference!!!) and likely happened in one of two instances: a) right after a shift, where you usually shifting at 6200-6400 rpm and landing in the 4000-4800 rpm range? b)partial throttle (50-70% or so) knock, maybe you are calling for too much timing in a medium load area, that wouldn't be sen in a WOT log? IME many people just do WOT logs and tune from there, once I have WOT tuned I like to tune (especially boost) for best performance and least overshoot after a high rpm shift. Many many cars will overboost after a shift. Even if overboosting isn't a problem your car could be experiencing some "shift knock". The car is transiting from a low load (high timing) cell quickly to a high load (low timing) cel, sometime you have to take some timing out in the "landing area" after a shift to stop this. Hope that helps. Full tune of 68HTA, KSTech 73 MAF, Racer X FMIC and ID1000s................by the DataLog Mafia!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterJMC Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Ohh my.... I want to tune my car but this is all . Anyone live in the MD/DC/VA area that is pretty good with RomRaider spend an hour or two with me to show me the ropes on what to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lepich Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 I think the only a way to do it yourself is to read and learn, ask questions here, tune, datalog (repeat 100 times :-) .. You can start with mickey'd stage 1 map ( free here) , and start tweaking it, and learn what are you doing by datalog.. very small steps ech time. I am doing the same, so far car did not blowup, but runs much better than on OTA TDC or TA map.. There are no bad people, just differeent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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