BlackHole Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 I have to buy a wagon. Must be MT & turbo , <4 yrs old, <$25k. I've narrowed it down to two so far. AWD is nice, but not as important as gas mileage => 21mpg mixed (which is what I get with my 05 LGT sedan). Sell me on why I should buy the LGT over the MS3. Or are there other options that you can think of? 05 LGT limited wagon (KBB price = $19.3k, 48k miles) 07 Mazdaspeed3 (KBB price = $20.2k, 12k miles) Kyle "BlackHole" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metal2You Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 09 wrx? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerboa113 Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 why should you get an lgt over an ms3? well, you're already familiar with subaru, its community, and the common problems that come with them so you're prepared better for one.. you will have the benefit of AWD out of the box so rain snow and "stupid driver" maneuvers will have better outcomes, the lgt wagon is much larger as far as storage capacity than the ms3, the lgt seats are more comfortable than an ms3's, the ms3 has loud obnoxious exhaust (which some of you may like but I do not) that drones and makes back seat to front seat conversations a yell at highway speeds.. and the ms3 has little to no undercarraige insulation making a drive through puddles sound like you just ran over 10,000 cats. and no.. thats not speculation.. a friend of mine has an ms3.. "The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
05GT Guru Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 A buddy of mine was so happy when he got his 08 ms3, then he raced me and lost and said he wanted to drive my car. After driving my car he was so pissed he didnt know what my legacy was before buying the ms3. He never rode in it and he never asked to lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerboa113 Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 my ms3 friend swears his ms3 is faster than my lgt.. given my lgt is a 5EAT and is only cobb stage 1 93, but we never raced them to find out.. we had talked about going to tracks but he was afraid of damaging his only car.. and honestly so was I.. One night he tried to be all sporty and make a hard left turn on the gas.. the car nearly understeered into the curb. Even with my soft stock suspension I could have made that turn.. "The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudeondacouch Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 19k seems high... a basically flawless wagon in stock trim (Limited) with over 40k should be no more than 17k FYI... i picked up my 05 Limited Wagon 5MT with 57k for 14,500 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gire Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 Blackhole- you consider a MS3 a wagon??? Have you compared the two trunks in person? an LGT wagon has superior storage space. When the seats are down, the trunk space becomes absolutely huge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infamous1 Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 I say it depends, will you be keeping your current LGT as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
05GT Guru Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 my ms3 friend swears his ms3 is faster than my lgt.. given my lgt is a 5EAT and is only cobb stage 1 93, but we never raced them to find out.. we had talked about going to tracks but he was afraid of damaging his only car.. and honestly so was I.. One night he tried to be all sporty and make a hard left turn on the gas.. the car nearly understeered into the curb. Even with my soft stock suspension I could have made that turn.. Mine a 5EAT aswell, but is is stage 2, however his best time at the track was a 14.8 and he can drive pretty well. All his other time were low 15s and i think 1 14.9xx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dtmenace Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 ...AWD is nice, but not as important as gas mileage ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c-lo Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 i looked at a ms3. beware, the a/c sucks. interior is adequate, but if you need a wagon, the ms3 doesn't fit into that category IMO 258k miles - Stock engine/minor suspension upgrades/original shocks/rear struts replaced at 222k/4 passenger side wheel bearings/3 clutches/1 radiator/3 turbos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobE Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 AWD is nice, but not as important as gas mileage then go with the MS3. i have a friend with one that can easily average 26 mpg and get 30+ on a highway trip. http://newenglandsubarus.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GULLABLE0NE Posted September 4, 2008 Share Posted September 4, 2008 look into the audi A3. i was interested in buying one but the dealer couldn't get me one to test drive so i opted for the LGT, but i have heard great things about the A3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHole Posted September 4, 2008 Author Share Posted September 4, 2008 Thanks all for your input. I'll look into the A3, hadn't thought about that one. Blackhole- you consider a MS3 a wagon??? Have you compared the two trunks in person? an LGT wagon has superior storage space. When the seats are down, the trunk space becomes absolutely huge. This car will be replacing my current LGT sedan. IMO the MS3 is as much a wagon as my old 05 WRX wagon, with roughly the same space behind the front seats. That said, I have no idea how big the LGT wagon trunk is - never seen one in person. If there are other wagons / 5 doors / whatever marketers want to call it that meet these criteria, I'm interested to hear about them. The prices I used are straight from KBB using the same criteria on each car. While I might be able to find a better deal, this is at least a consistent basis for comparison. Kyle "BlackHole" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoxerGT2.5 Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 MS3 will have a nicer interior and handle better than a stock LGT, it has a six-speed vs. 5 speed. The LGT though is quicker straight line so if that's what gets your shorts tight then go with the LGT. OBAMA......One Big Ass Mistake America! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newbwrx Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 I currently own an LGT MT wagon and previously owned a WRX wagon. The LGT is much bigger and more comfortable. The Mazda 3 is small in comparison. Good examples of MT LGT's are around with 35k miles for under $20k. Look for a good example, and take solice in the fact that you already like the Subaru, or you wouldn't currently own one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zed 2.0 Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 MS3 will have a nicer interior and handle better than a stock LGT, it has a six-speed vs. 5 speed. The LGT though is quicker straight line so if that's what gets your shorts tight then go with the LGT. Stock for stock, the LGT sure isn't quicker than a MS3. MS3 is lighter, significantly more powerful, has a closer ratio transmission and doesn't have AWD drivetrain loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nm Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 Stock for stock, the LGT sure isn't quicker than a MS3. MS3 is lighter, significantly more powerful, has a closer ratio transmission and doesn't have AWD drivetrain loss. http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/mazdaspeed3.pdf http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/0603_awd_data_panel.pdf http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/0410_rt_acura_subaru-pg1.pdf LGT on Re92s is just as quick as an MS3 on sticky rubber SpecB on the same tires (RE050A) is much faster than the MS3 showing the same trap speed. The MS3 doesn't really have handling either. Slower though the slalom than the LGT on Re92s v. sticky RE050As. Spec B number's are completely comparable due to suspension differences, but that's faster still (I'm still not conviced that a significant amount of the SpecB's magazine numbers don't have to do with the fact that it gets decent rubber) And beyond magazine racing, LGT wagons (they're all wagons, not LGT sedans WTF?) out perform the MS3s are my local autocrosses. The LGT wagon "trunk" is huge. I can carry 4 wheels with tires and 5 people in my car. Lie the back seats down and I, at 6'4" can take a nap in the back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VTGT Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 OT: but are you selling your turbo setup off your lgt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zed 2.0 Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/mazdaspeed3.pdf http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/0603_awd_data_panel.pdf http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/download/0410_rt_acura_subaru-pg1.pdf LGT on Re92s is just as quick as an MS3 on sticky rubber SpecB on the same tires (RE050A) is much faster than the MS3 showing the same trap speed. Those .pdfs show exactly how and why the MS3 is faster in a straight line. According to that data, the MS3 is over a full second quicker to 100mph than the LGT. The LGT's entire advantage lies in off-the-line traction thanks to the AWD. Indeed, the LGT's advantage is practically gone by the time both cars hit 60. And as all of us know, you have to absolutely punish the drivetrain in the LGT to get launches like that. There's just no sense in arguing that the more efficient, more powerful, lighter car isn't also faster. I've driven both back-to-back and when the MS3 finally gains traction it's a little rocket ship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nm Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 Those .pdfs show exactly how and why the MS3 is faster in a straight line. According to that data, the MS3 is over a full second quicker to 100mph than the LGT. The LGT's entire advantage lies in off-the-line traction thanks to the AWD. Indeed, the LGT's advantage is practically gone by the time both cars hit 60. And as all of us know, you have to absolutely punish the drivetrain in the LGT to get launches like that. There's just no sense in arguing that the more efficient, more powerful, lighter car isn't also faster. I've driven both back-to-back and when the MS3 finally gains traction it's a little rocket ship. I'd say the spec b numbers are more comparable given the lack of Re92s. Tires are important (note that this is the spec b with the 5 speed so it has the same gearing). Traction is also very important in more than straight line speed. And of course it punishes the hell out of the LGT to launch hard, as will all (AWD) cars. Though launching FWD cars causes it's own diff issues on OEM equipment. Also beyond the weight/hp measure there's also gearing. The subaru is geared a bit faster. This causes some pain in MPG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerboa113 Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 Those .pdfs show exactly how and why the MS3 is faster in a straight line. According to that data, the MS3 is over a full second quicker to 100mph than the LGT. I dunno about you.. but I dont do any straight line 0-100 drags on a daily basis. Obviously if the guy is looking for a wagon as his first credential with mpg as a 2nd and performance as a 3rd.. thats not going to be terribly relevant data in this discussion. blackhole the hatch area of an ms3 is not really fairly compared with the hatch area of an LGT wagon. the LGT wagon probably has the same space behind the seats with the seats up as the ms3 has with the seats down. The ms3 basically has a smaller "trunk" than the LGT sedan with the only exception being height. MPG will certrainly be better with the ms3, but not enough imo to sacrifice the build quality that comes with subaru. The ms3 interior LOOKS nice.. but what you find out very quickly about an ms3 after being in one for a short time is that the ms3 is bascailly a base model mazda3 5 door with leather covering the rock hard seats, hid/led light upgrades, and a powerhouse under the hood. There is very little in the way of insulation and there is almost no regard given to comfort. The build quality that is initially apparent is not the same as the build quality you will see down the road a few months. Having not been in an SRT4, I can imagine the ms3 is built like one.. its a powerhouse, but its still just a mazda3 and the economy build class really shows up with time. "The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
05GT Guru Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 Lol one of my best friends has this car and i take his ms3 from a dig for sure, and i have win from a roll aswell. Yes im stage 2 but im also a 5eat and on a dig i win by about 4 cars, roll race from 40-100 i pull about 2 cars maybe 3. As far as handleing i feel simular body roll on both cars. The ms3 is a low 14 second car, just like the legacy, its a drivers race plain and simple. A good driver can run low 14s in a ms3, its much easier to run low 14s in a legacy. FWD FTL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHole Posted September 5, 2008 Author Share Posted September 5, 2008 Thanks for the comments everybody, very interesting discussion. I think I need to test-drive a MS3 - I've driven the std 3 since the nearest MS3 is ~1/2hr away. One interesting fact: the MS3 is on Car & Driver's 10Best list and behind only the BMW 135i on Consumer Report's best small sporty car list. Now that's odd - talk about two organizations with completely different evaluation criteria. OT: but are you selling your turbo setup off your lgt? If I have to part out the sedan, yes. The sedan won't go up for sale until the wagon is purchased. Kyle "BlackHole" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilT Posted September 5, 2008 Share Posted September 5, 2008 MS3, even though it's actually a hatchback and not a wagon. They respond very well to mods, and easy to put down 300 whp with the stock turbo. Double Award Winning Legacy GT Wagon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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