SubLo Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 i seriously dont understand why theres so much hate on this forum towards tdc. For this comparison, imo, you should do a run/tune on just pump, then a run on wi. TDC never claimed the 40bb would make more on racegas, which is the equivalent to what WI does. Furthermore, there are so many variables, ignition timing, different up-pipe, different agressive tunes that even on a dyno this wont solve the answer. Go to the ******* track, then driver is another variable. Whatever im done with this thread +1. Excellent points. Hard to keep my gums shut with so much subjective going on. A lot of you guys not only are hating but you've got the blinders on with "bigger is better." Not saying it's necessarily not but as in countless other bb threads, you're completely ignoring other factors like efficiency for a given setup. ________________________________________________ [URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/vbpicgallery.php?do=view&g=1980"]'05 BSM OBXT Row-your-own, W.I.P. :rolleyes:[/URL] [URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/vbpicgallery.php?do=view&g=1242"]'06 Shrek B # 64 - The car the wife loved to hate :( Sold...[/URL] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeeeeeYa Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 i seriously dont understand why theres so much hate on this forum towards tdc. For this comparison, imo, you should do a run/tune on just pump, then a run on wi. TDC never claimed the 40bb would make more on racegas, which is the equivalent to what WI does. Furthermore, there are so many variables, ignition timing, different up-pipe, different agressive tunes that even on a dyno this wont solve the answer. Go to the ******* track, then driver is another variable. Whatever im done with this thread +1. Excellent points. Hard to keep my gums shut with so much subjective going on. A lot of you guys not only are hating but you've got the blinders on with "bigger is better." Not saying it's necessarily not but as in countless other bb threads, you're completely ignoring other factors like efficiency for a given setup. Consider the possibility that the comments you refer to are not hating. Consider the possibility that comments exampled by the quotes above are fingers-in-the-ear-nyaa-nyaa-I-don't-hear-yous, instead of the only objective reasoning here. Consider the possibility that some people may actually have enough experience, personally, with TDC to have informed opinions. Consider the possibility that dissenting comments to the unreasoning mindset of a small clique of invested parties is to restore objectivity to the important task of turbo selection. In virtually every 'I've got a new turbo' thread the vast majority of responses state happiness for the poster, and that that poster's happiness with their setup is all that counts. No different here. But the TDC40bb does not reinvent the science of turbos. It is not the hot rodding Shroud of Turin. It is obviously a good turbo that has made those who have it happy. It is MY OPINION, however, that some of that happiness is based on ONE dyno graph that is misleading, however good it is. I am NOT trying to rain on anyone's parade. Opinions, everyone knows, are zeroed out since everyone has one . No one can rain on MY parade by casting asparagus on my AVO380, for example. They cannnot simply because I KNOW the finite reality of my own situation, which is not based on any dyno graph. Those who own and enjoy their 40bb's should, should, be no different. What is odd, is that it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ultimakf7 Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 I just want to see the difference with the area under the curve. I/we already know that the 40bb will spool much quicker than the 20g, and will provide less peak power/torque. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UniqueTII Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 I love my 40BB (Mr. T's old car) and at the same time I think a lot of the other turbos offered are great as well. This is just like any other opinion thread (tuner vs. tuner, STI vs. EVO, Coke vs. heroi...I mean Pepsi) and like SeeeeeYa said, it's all about the happiness of the owner of the car/turbo/whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 This thread is AWESOME !!! I thought TDC had reinvented the turbo They certainly appear to have reinvented after market service and support Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubLo Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 :lol:+1!!! This response wins points just for entertainment factor alone!!! You win big brownie points... bravo! (no sarcasm intended) Consider the possibility that the comments you refer to are not hating. Consider the possibility that comments exampled by the quotes above are fingers-in-the-ear-nyaa-nyaa-I-don't-hear-yous, instead of the only objective reasoning here. Consider the possibility that some people may actually have enough experience, personally, with TDC to have informed opinions. Could very well be, yes. I don't discount it. I also have first hand experience with TDC and it contrasts wildly with the opposing view. Again, first-hand personal experience, not hearsay or guessing. Others clearly have had not so good experiences. Sorry to hear it. Consider the possibility that dissenting comments to the unreasoning mindset of a small clique of invested parties is to restore objectivity to the important task of turbo selection. Duh! Yes indeed! Objectivity is exactly what I'm trying to provide regarding this particular turbo, again from personal experience, not some pixie dust left wing, "No thanks, make mine a Spec.B" silly logic. You have first-hand experience with your AVO - that's great. Share some objectivity about it, post some dynos, timeslips, experiences good and bad, tuning tips, etc. with everyone. This way, people can gather your stories, mine, and everyone else's and draw their own conclusions. In virtually every 'I've got a new turbo' thread the vast majority of responses state happiness for the poster, and that that poster's happiness with their setup is all that counts. No different here. +1 But the TDC40bb does not reinvent the science of turbos. It is not the hot rodding Shroud of Turin. It is obviously a good turbo that has made those who have it happy. It is MY OPINION, however, that some of that happiness is based on ONE dyno graph that is misleading, however good it is. Shroud of Turrin sarcasm aside (which is also highly entertaining ), yeah it's made the owners happy. They're are 4 of us to my knowledge (3 MTs and 1 EAT). Your OPINION is just that and is wrong when compared to the facts some of which are posted for the umpteenth time below. Dynos - blaa blaa blaa. In the end, whether the TDC Land&Sea is miscalibrated, reading high/low, is load-bearing, sucks compared to Mustangs/Dynopacks whatever... as I've said numerous times, it really doesn't matter. It's a tool. It's best for comparison from baselines when modding. The "numbers" are simply feel goods - "I've got a bigger &*@ than you" type of silliness. I'm much more interested in the curve meeting my particular needs and again changes from tuning and mods. BTW, the overlay I posted against the TD05-20g... I didn't give a crap so much about the numbers but did so for the comparison on the same dyno with similar mods. Like a dead horse, I just keep reading "the 20g will make more power than the 40bb period..." Again I'll say, theoretically sure based on airflow. Why this keeps being repeated, I have no idea. Perhaps it's the pixie dust effect. I'm exhausted repeating that not one person has yet to prove it on a dyno or E.T. only via the butt dyno... "the blaa blaa blaa pulls harder." I am NOT trying to rain on anyone's parade. Opinions, everyone knows, are zeroed out since everyone has one . No one can rain on MY parade by casting asparagus on my AVO380, for example. They cannnot simply because I KNOW the finite reality of my own situation, which is not based on any dyno graph. Those who own and enjoy their 40bb's should, should, be no different. What is odd, is that it is. Oh this made me laugh so hard! I'm loving the asparagus reference! +1. That's the bottom line - if your choices make you happy personally. Absolutely! Again, people who have not gone the turbo-upgrade route are looking for unbiased, real-world data, opinions, and experiences on which to judge their upgrades. It's extremely foolish, IMO, to have people who do not have experience with a particular setup to purport otherwise which is what I see a lot of with the 40bb. Many folks here are not scientists, machinists, or engineers yet are simply astounded that a "small" turbo can make big power and are insistent on injecting negativity as a result - and I'm not talking about TDC experiences - another issue. That's just dumb. Again, let the facts speak for themselves. I'm having my 6-puck installed as I write this and will be off to the E-town dragstrip in a few weeks. Combined with my "tainted, single" dyno, the E.T. should be sufficient for people to make up their own minds. The AVO380, AVO420, TD05/06 20G are fantastic turbos as I've said. If they suit you, they suit you and that's great. 40bb plots (mine's already posted apparently not good enough ) Mr.T / UniqueTII http://www.tdctuning.com/dynocharts/40bbvsstg2.GIF FWeasal http://www.photodump.org/stored12/dynoruns.JPG TRS (5EAT) http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b380/TRS60586/Misc%20Legacy/CCF03152007_000022.jpg ________________________________________________ [URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/vbpicgallery.php?do=view&g=1980"]'05 BSM OBXT Row-your-own, W.I.P. :rolleyes:[/URL] [URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/vbpicgallery.php?do=view&g=1242"]'06 Shrek B # 64 - The car the wife loved to hate :( Sold...[/URL] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qikslvr Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Gregnauman and I are trying to plan a same day 40bb TMIC OBXT vs. TD06-20g Zilla TMIC LGT tune/dyno day at P&L later this spring or early summer. Should be interesting. Like many others; I don't actually care which produces more as long as we are both happy with our choices. We chose different tubos for different reasons and price wasn't one of them. I believe he likes the quick spool and I'm looking for more top end power near redline. It's all about personal preference. It would be interesting to see which comes out ahead with near identical mods in back to back dyno runs though. The best match would be to let Jorge tune em both while they are on the rack and see who comes out ahead. Let's kick this pig! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeeeeeYa Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 You definitely are one BAD poster, and I mean that in a good way . Here is the thing, as good as that 40bb is and I believe you that it is, it is almost a one-off turbo. It really shouldn't be included in any current selection context. As late as this morning the TDC website does not list it as available. (and their 'forum' has been unavailable for some time) In fact, since you are familiar on a first hand basis you must know this, TDC is and has been undergoing significant changes. Maybe the future will include the 40bb choice once again, and I hope it does. But where is the support right now? It isn't. At one time I almost chose that 40bb. Then I considered my own long history with the manufacturer and decided to go with something similar but better, and infinitely more stable and supported, the AVO. With an AVO turbo I can modify, repair and update it if I wish. Can the owner of a 40bb do this? Not. People wanting a turbo usually want the wheels of progress to at least be moving . As far as performance statistics on any car with any setup the means are available to everyone without resorting to a dyno or dragstrip. Here is a good place to see that: http://legacygt.com/forums/showthrea...ighlight=50-80 As soon as this still learning novice of a tuner feels his car performs to his satisfaction he will 'post em up.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005garnetGT Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Yeah but a turbo isn't just a compressor you know. The 18G and 20G are typically paired with a TD05 or TD06 hotside housing. The 40bb, on the other hand, uses the VF40 housing, which is a huge benefit. You know, the VF40 hotside that everybody says chokes off the high-RPM performance of the stock system. It's complicated. But seriously, I'm looking forward to the results of this comparison. right, so the bigger hotside and bigger compressor (which the 20G has) is going to make bigger power... I don't know why people even try to argue against that area under the curve is a different story, but for peak power the 20G supports more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infamous1 Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Pixie dust! Subcribed for hilarious reads.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoopMan Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 As far as I can gather, the 40bb takes the chra from the vf22, replaces the compressor wheel with an 18g, and then takes the vf40 compressor cover AND hotside and machines them until all this stuff fits inside. That way it bolts up to the LGT style TMIC and the vf40 wastegate actuator still works as before. I think. Anyway if that is what it really is, we can go get Deadbolt or Blouch to make one up for us, rather than beg and plead with TDC. I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infamous1 Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 As far as I can gather, the 40bb takes the chra from the vf22, replaces the compressor wheel with an 18g, and then takes the vf40 compressor cover AND hotside and machines them until all this stuff fits inside. That way it bolts up to the LGT style TMIC and the vf40 wastegate actuator still works as before. I think. Anyway if that is what it really is, we can go get Deadbolt or Blouch to make one up for us, rather than beg and plead with TDC. I think. Hotside is different as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rc0032 Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Gregnauman and I are trying to plan a same day 40bb TMIC OBXT vs. TD06-20g Zilla TMIC LGT tune/dyno day at P&L later this spring or early summer. Should be interesting. Like many others; I don't actually care which produces more as long as we are both happy with our choices. We chose different tubos for different reasons and price wasn't one of them. I believe he likes the quick spool and I'm looking for more top end power near redline. It's all about personal preference. It would be interesting to see which comes out ahead with near identical mods in back to back dyno runs though. The best match would be to let Jorge tune em both while they are on the rack and see who comes out ahead. Are you both going to run WI? You should Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoopMan Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Hotside is different as well. My bad? I thought the wg setup of the 40bb and the vf40 were identical, as well as being different from all the other vf turbos? I surmise that from looking at pix posted on this forum. No personal experience... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infamous1 Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 My bad? I thought the wg setup of the 40bb and the vf40 were identical, as well as being different from all the other vf turbos? I surmise that from looking at pix posted on this forum. No personal experience... Sorry, it appears to be a modified vf40 hotside. http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showp...70&postcount=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qikslvr Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Are you both going to run WI? You should I will be if I can find the additional funds by then. I just spent a ton of cash on the turbo, injectors, FP, EBCS, springs, shocks/struts, endlinks, gauges, mirror(comp/auto-dim/homelink), in-car camera mount, Fumoto valve and other stuff so I'm tapped for cash at the moment. Sounds like a good time for a spring cleaning followed by an e-garage sale! Let's kick this pig! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 As far as I can gather, the 40bb takes the chra from the vf22, replaces the compressor wheel with an 18g, and then takes the vf40 compressor cover AND hotside and machines them until all this stuff fits inside. That way it bolts up to the LGT style TMIC and the vf40 wastegate actuator still works as before. I think. Anyway if that is what it really is, we can go get Deadbolt or Blouch to make one up for us, rather than beg and plead with TDC. I think. i tried to get 1 direct from blouch and they said i had to order it from tdc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoopMan Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 i tried to get 1 direct from blouch and they said i had to order it from tdc That is annoying. I thought Blouch did the 18g upgrades? Does TDC sub the work to Blouch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubLo Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 right, so the bigger hotside and bigger compressor (which the 20G has) is going to should theoretically make bigger power... I don't know why people even try to argue against that People argue differently because THAT HAS NOT BEEN THE CASE yet per numerous dynos . area under the curve is a different story, but for peak power the 20G supports more In theory +1. In practice, from given dynos, not yet. The "pixie dust" so far appears to be efficiency differences. ________________________________________________ [URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/vbpicgallery.php?do=view&g=1980"]'05 BSM OBXT Row-your-own, W.I.P. :rolleyes:[/URL] [URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/vbpicgallery.php?do=view&g=1242"]'06 Shrek B # 64 - The car the wife loved to hate :( Sold...[/URL] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infamous1 Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 People argue differently because THAT HAS NOT BEEN THE CASE yet per numerous dynos . In theory +1. In practice, from given dynos, not yet. The "pixie dust" so far appears to be efficiency differences. 20g powered 5eat's have seen 320whp and charts have been posted. You need to search a little harder....You keep referencing to only one TD05 20g dyno sheet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rc0032 Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Hes a SpecB driver what do you expect? I would talk with Deadbolt about a 40bb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005garnetGT Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 People argue differently because THAT HAS NOT BEEN THE CASE yet per numerous dynos . no amount of pixie dust will make up for the fact that the 20G wheel has 4lb more flow capacity, which is roughly 40hp worth. this argument is so ludicrous it would be as if someone seriously believed a 20G would make more power then an FP green Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoopMan Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Hes a SpecB driver what do you expect? How can anyone hope to surpass The King Of Cars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubLo Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Hes a SpecB driver what do you expect? Pointless. Please add something meaningful to the discussion the OP can use to make an informed decision. no amount of pixie dust will make up for the fact that the 20G wheel has 4lb more flow capacity, which is roughly 40hp worth. this argument is so ludicrous it would be as if someone seriously believed a 20G would make more power then an FP green Dude! I'm not arguing with you about the flow rate just the end results I've seen. I have searched. Been here for a long time and was first settled on doing a 20g before coming across the 40bb. Please show me the dynos you're referring to. Here's what I've found for TD06-20g's (along with similar references by rc0032 to Nabisco posts) KTM http://www.tdctuning.com/dynocharts/base20Gsae.GIF XLeezardx http://aycu29.webshots.com/image/30548/2004375286639852283_rs.jpg O5Pearl http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=47628&d=1200705123 Wavewagon http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35691&d=1177178680 ________________________________________________ [URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/vbpicgallery.php?do=view&g=1980"]'05 BSM OBXT Row-your-own, W.I.P. :rolleyes:[/URL] [URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/vbpicgallery.php?do=view&g=1242"]'06 Shrek B # 64 - The car the wife loved to hate :( Sold...[/URL] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rc0032 Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Pointless. Please add something meaningful to the discussion the OP can use to make an informed decision. Go look at the OP smart ass :lol::lol: Think what ever you want you are just another Vimy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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