erikvcl Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Erik, Could you tell me how double-clutching "implies" rev-matching? It doesn't imply rev-matching to me...are you saying you double clutch and rev-match? If not, then double-clutching would actually require the clutch to work harder by allowing rpms to drop further before engaging the lower gear. Joe Rev matching adjusts the engine speed to match the engine speed that it will be in the gear you want to select next. For example, if the engine speed is 2000rpm and downshifting would bring the engine speed to 3000rpm, you would then bring the engine speed to 3000rpm by pressing the accelerator with the clutch in. The clutch-out in the next gear wouldn't jerk the car since the engine is already at the right speed (e.g. 3000 rpm). Double clutching is similar to rev matching except that it also matches the speed of the input shaft in addition to adjusting the engine speed. The only way to change the speed of the input shaft is with the clutch out (i.e. engaged). A double clutch would work like this: 1. Clutch in 2. shift to neutral 3. clutch out, rev engine to the speed it would be in the gear you want to select (e.g. 3000rpm in the above example) 4. clutch in 5. select gear; this will be smooth since syncros don't have to speed up the input shaft to 3000rpm from 2000rpm: you've already done that 6. clutch out So you can see that double-clutching implies rev-matching in that double-clutching adjusts both the engine speed and the input shaft speed (the speeds are the same, see step #3 above). Both goals are accomplished: less syncro work and no jerk of the car as the clutch has to work to speed the engine up. Although double-clutching will likely put more wear on the clutch slave cylinder & springs (since there'll be 2 clutch in-out cycles instead of 1), it will increase clutch life since there'll be less work on it spinning up the engine for each downshift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSpeed Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Rev matching adjusts the engine speed to match the engine speed that it will be in the gear you want to select next. For example, if the engine speed is 2000rpm and downshifting would bring the engine speed to 3000rpm, you would then bring the engine speed to 3000rpm by pressing the accelerator with the clutch in. The clutch-out in the next gear wouldn't jerk the car since the engine is already at the right speed (e.g. 3000 rpm). Double clutching is similar to rev matching except that it also matches the speed of the input shaft in addition to adjusting the engine speed. The only way to change the speed of the input shaft is with the clutch out (i.e. engaged). A double clutch would work like this: 1. Clutch in 2. shift to neutral 3. clutch out, rev engine to the speed it would be in the gear you want to select (e.g. 3000rpm in the above example) 4. clutch in 5. select gear; this will be smooth since syncros don't have to speed up the input shaft to 3000rpm from 2000rpm: you've already done that 6. clutch out So you can see that double-clutching implies rev-matching in that double-clutching adjusts both the engine speed and the input shaft speed (the speeds are the same, see step #3 above). Both goals are accomplished: less syncro work and no jerk of the car as the clutch has to work to speed the engine up. Although double-clutching will likely put more wear on the clutch slave cylinder & springs (since there'll be 2 clutch in-out cycles instead of 1), it will increase clutch life since there'll be less work on it spinning up the engine for each downshift. I don't buy it, double-clutching is for old trucks without synchros... in common cars that's the exact reason we have synchros... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 You don't buy what? Double-clutching works. Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSpeed Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 You don't buy what? Double-clutching works. I don't buy that double clutching is needed in common synchro transmissions... you aren't going to wear out synchros by not double-clutching and anyone can shift without "jerking" the car by simply being the smooth the traditional way... Synchros get worn and destroyed by people trying to power shift while accelerating and by incorrect clutch adjustment much more than they do by normal shifting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattg Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 I love it when I have to do the quadruple clutch to get my car in reverse. Similar to a model "T" ford I presume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apexjapan Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 I've owned turbocharged Legacies for about 8-10 years now, and am fairly certain they are quite reliable. Especially if you add some context in. What I mean by that is that these are relatively high-power vehicles that make a good amount of torque. Especially when they are modified. Under 5 second 0-60 isn't that hard to achieve with some choice modifications. The flip side is that the cars are subject to that much more stress on a daily basis. That's what can wear some of them down much quicker - even at stock power levels, as those levels are not exactly low on the turbo cars. If you wanted to buy a Legacy that's going to go on and on like the energizer bunny, get a naturally aspirated 2.5-liter. Less power = less stress on the drivetrain components. It's also more likely that you aren't going to rabbit out from lights, run them at 100mph, attack the twisties like Solberg, etc.. In other words, not quite as much fun. There's plenty of people that have gotten 200,000+ miles out of Subaru's, but those were ones that made maybe 165hp max, and were driven, ah, respectfully their entire lives. And finally, user forums can be the worst place to ask about reliability of cars. People that have a problem with their car are much more likely to speak up than people that have no problems with their cars. This leads to an impression that Car X is a piece of cow dung when all you see in some sections is complaints about this or that. The fact is that if 10 people have complaints while 1000 people don't, all you are going to see is 10 separate threads on how bad the car is, and zero threads about how reliable it is. Cheers, Paul Hansen http://www.avoturboworld.com http://www.avojdm.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rporter Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 I don't buy that double clutching is needed in common synchro transmissions... you aren't going to wear out synchros by not double-clutching and anyone can shift without "jerking" the car by simply being the smooth the traditional way... Synchros get worn and destroyed by people trying to power shift while accelerating and by incorrect clutch adjustment much more than they do by normal shifting... It's one of those toss-ups. if you buy the car new, and are gonna keep it for a LONG time, it can help. Otherwise, the next owner(s) get the benefit. The biggest benefit that I can see is if you do it to stay sharp on your heel-toe technique if you like to do track events. Rev-matching is definitely worth it on the track, as you don't upset the balance of the car when shifting. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKSubie Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Those that have problems will always be the most vocal. Werd! Hows the saying go, squeeky wheel gets the grease? But dont forget the annoying wheel gets replaced. Every enthusiast car will have its rash of problems, sometimes they get verbalized enough the manufacturer will make changes, (like the reflashes, my audi and upgraded turbo lines, etc) other times they wont. Everycar will have its issues, it just depends on how the issue came to be and what the company or dealer did to resolve the issue. I've had my 07 almost a year with ~27k miles. (yes I'm a driver..I'm a winner... I can feel it LOL ) To date the only issue I have is the "stutter" as everyone and their uncle has experienced. Also now finding out the battery may not be liking the cold or something is wrong in the radio. Overall fairly reliable in my book. Reliablility though comes with maintenance and care. Some people can make a Toyota Corolla unreliable. research your options and want, and search and lurk around here and other sites. At this stage in the game, the cars you mentioned are all on the same team reliability wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domain Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Are the LGT's a highly sensitive car prone to major problems, or are they pretty problem free, despite the things I've been reading? to the majority of the comments here... people are much more likely to complain when they have problems then they are to compliment when they have none. My '05 Legacy GT was likely the most trouble free car i've owned yet... that said it was never modified, and was impeccably maintained. It was also one of the only "new" cars I had ever purchased, so likely that helped to contribute to its overall reliability for the period I owned it. Of course, there is always that possibility to get more (or perhaps less) then you bargained for, as the last "new" car I dealt with was a Mazda, and it ended up falling into the Lemon-Law category. 'Fragile' is certainly not the word I would use for the Legacy, but as with most turbo-charged vehicles, a little extra care is probably necessary to keep things running smoothly. In the end though reliability is somewhat relative... most people I encounter treat their vehicles as appliances that get them from A to B, and when something breaks they are often oblivious to the fact; their ideal of reliability has more to do with whether the car is still able to move or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_sharp Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 I've had a fair share of issues with my car. I drive my car like it was stolen. No-body thinks twice about starting a thread about the former... but few will admit to the latter. Try to wrap your mind around that one! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opie Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Cars treat you back like they are treated...that being said I have an early build (06/2004) 2005 LGT that has had it's quirks, bulbs, rattles, etc., but has been very, very mechanically reliable over it's 57,000 miles still on the stock clutch (stock drivetrain). I've always used the severe duty service schedule; Motul oil changes every 3,000 mi, Motul transmission & differential fluid, coolant & brake fluid changes every 15,000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattg Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 is Motul synthetic oil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planigan Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Friends have said the (leather) smell inside the car makes it smell like a new car. That's funny, people have said the same thing to me after close to 2 years of ownership. Not letting people eat or smoke in the ride doesn't hurt. The only complaint is the body sheet metal and the paint. If you as much lean on the car, it dents. And it seems that touching the paint with something other than a feather will nick it Yeah, I'll second that as well. The OBP in particular shows every little scratch and swirl. Then again, black cars in general are like that. Looks gorgeous when it's clean though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euclid Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 45,000 problem free miles on my 05. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carter Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Regarding the oil concerns. If your going by the kid who put 75w90 in his engine, please don't go by him. He was missing a few bolts, and I don't mean his car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjundi Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Its all the driver and some luck. Take the internet with a serious grain of salt. You won't see many posts about every trouble free day for any car. Its not interesting and would fall off the board. A problem happens and it gets flooded with responses as it makes interesting reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutru01 Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 I've been considering several cars lately, ranging from Mazdaspeed 3's and 6's, WRX wagons and Legacy GT's, and have spent alot of time on this site, trying to get a good feel for the cars, as I think I'm pretty set on buying a Legacy. But I keep reading about major problems with cars with relatively few miles (Blown turbos and motors by 30,000 miles, constant wheel bearing problems, blown headlights, the clutches only being good for 70,000 miles (WTF?! ) , major issues with certain oils, necessary coolant additives, etc. etc.) I've always gotten the impression that Subaru's were built like tanks, but judging by the things I've been reading, it's doesn't seem to be the case. One of the main things to me is that the car I buy is reliable, and certainly not prone to blowing up at 40,000 miles. To be fair, I've read some bad things about the Mazdaspeed 6's as well. I realize that all cars have their issues, but catastrophic failures shouldn't be one of them Are the LGT's a highly sensitive car prone to major problems, or are they pretty problem free, despite the things I've been reading? If you stay stock, I can assure that you will stay happy. Most people that have issues with there car have modified it in some way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gasaraki Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 I've been considering several cars lately, ranging from Mazdaspeed 3's and 6's, WRX wagons and Legacy GT's, and have spent alot of time on this site, trying to get a good feel for the cars, as I think I'm pretty set on buying a Legacy. But I keep reading about major problems with cars with relatively few miles (Blown turbos and motors by 30,000 miles, constant wheel bearing problems, blown headlights, the clutches only being good for 70,000 miles (WTF?! ) , major issues with certain oils, necessary coolant additives, etc. etc.) I've always gotten the impression that Subaru's were built like tanks, but judging by the things I've been reading, it's doesn't seem to be the case. One of the main things to me is that the car I buy is reliable, and certainly not prone to blowing up at 40,000 miles. To be fair, I've read some bad things about the Mazdaspeed 6's as well. I realize that all cars have their issues, but catastrophic failures shouldn't be one of them Are the LGT's a highly sensitive car prone to major problems, or are they pretty problem free, despite the things I've been reading? If you go to ANY forum for any car, people will complain about their own cars. That usually does not represent the vast majority of people who owns that type of car. Subaru's in general are very reliable, LGT's included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
700watts Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 ok, is a Ferrari reliable ? a Porsche, or Lamborghini ? as one person stated earlier the more stress more problems...I can attest to that a friend of mine who to had replace the turbo’s on his $130k Porsche every 20k miles.....point is you have to PAY to PLAY ......if you want a ride that’s going to last 300k with nothing else buy a NA legacy or 92 accord.... I’m not saying the LGT is unreliable but it’s all relative….. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKSubie Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 LOL, ok, so the irony is they may be a little "fragile" Apparently My front bumper and grill are no match for my bosses Expedition as he just backed into me. Too bad the nub between the headlight and grill isnt stronger, otherwise my baby woudl only need a grill and re-application of clearbra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeTrout Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 LOL, ok, so the irony is they may be a little "fragile" Apparently My front bumper and grill are no match for my bosses Expedition as he just backed into me. Too bad the nub between the headlight and grill isnt stronger, otherwise my baby woudl only need a grill and re-application of clearbra. Time to go JDM! Ich bin echt viel netter, wenn ich nuechtern bin. Echt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smoss Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 05 LGT and I would say trouble free. I had the ECU fan recall problem early on. I also had a dashboar rattle the was fixed and returned. Not a big deal. My headlights went out once in 34k miles and were repplaced. Other than that car hasn't been modified and has run great. I had Honda's years ago and always liked their relability. I then wanted to go AWD and got an Audi. Big mistake. Always broke. Now I am in the LGT and I would say as reliable as the Hondas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKSubie Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 I then wanted to go AWD and got an Audi. Big mistake. Always broke. Now I am in the LGT and I would say as reliable as the Hondas. It is ironic how many cross shop the 2. I came from Audi as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitestar Pilot Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 My '05 LGT has 32K on it now, and has never been serviced by the dealer. I change the oil and air filiter, and put gas in it. It did have the fan relay switch issue, but I just pulled the fuse to that fan. Even in the summer, the motor doesn't get hot without that secondary fan. I don't trust people, and won't ever let someone work on my car unless it becomes undriveable and I can't fix it myself. Thusfar I've been very happy with the reliability of my Subaru. On the issue of the clutch--we're talking about an AWD Turbo car here, so if someone's goes out early (including mine), then it would most likely be from some dead-stop launches and spirited driving. Luckily mine's held up great so far! If I were in the market for a new sedan, I'd probably test drive the Mazdaspeed 6 and the LGT and pick one of the two. My wife has the 5-door S-Model 6, and we love that car too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rporter Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 If I were in the market for a new sedan, I'd probably test drive the Mazdaspeed 6 and the LGT and pick one of the two. My wife has the 5-door S-Model 6, and we love that car too. Well, that decision has been made easier. The Mazdaspeed 6 is no longer offered. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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