2010 camaro

[camber]

No, but they also lose enthusiast customers if they don't cash-flow some resources from high profit vehicles to cover low profit vehicles.

 

Car companies don't just make one model for that very reason. Otherwise Corvette, GT-R, and lots of performance cars would never get off the drawing board, and everyone would try to sell carbon copy camrys, since they seem to sell the best.

 

And it is also a function of profitability to meet government regulations, rather than responding to customer demands, which is not government's function in a free market economy.

 

Gas prices are more quickly cyclical than car design. It is foolishness to let a quickly changing situation completely determine the whole product line.

 

It was the opposite with SUVs. Affordable, or even cheap gas in the 90s gave rise to a singular focus on SUVs, and government regulatory oversight on them was less than cars, which re-inforced that singular focus.

 

Now all of the sudden, they find themselves completely unprepared for quick market changes. IF they were somehow to convert completely to economy cars, then the market changes again, and this record price oil bubble were to burst, and bring the crude price back down to ~60$, just above the current *real cost* of production of a barrel of crude, then all of the sudden people want nicer, more comfortable cars than econoboxes, then the auto makers are left behind the 8 ball again.

 

A balanced, quality, reasonable, diversified lineup is the way to weather market changes. You would diversify your investments to protect your fiscal position, why should a car company not diversify to protect their commercial position?

 

 

Cheap gas is pretty much gone... This isn't the 70s, the west has to compete with India and China for every last resource. The only I can see cheap gas reappearing overnight, is a drastic reduction in consumption spurred on by some kind of revolutionary technology.

 

Halo cars are nice but when your bleeding money and about to go bankrupt, it's not the time to be investing significant amount of money in them.

 

Toyota, is currently one of the most successful car companies in the world. They got there by dumping their niche/halo cars and focusing on the vanilla, cash cow cars like the Camry. After dominating all the popular segments in the market. Toyota has just recently decided to enter niche/halo cars to build new revenue streams beyond their core business.

 

GM, Ford and Chrysler don't have the money or time to be wasting on niche models. They are fighting for their very survival at the moment. They need to bring the core cars up to scratch first.

[IwannaSportSedan]

what kidna car does that make the legacy if it can take it on twisties and straights?

 

I dunno, there, Guru... that is kind of a challenge on the Legacy forum. Sounds like a put-down to me.

 

And I can point to the post, and say that you specifically said it.

 

You make generalizations that people here make derogatory, and you claim to be unfounded, malignments of GM F-bodies... "handling like shit" as you say.

 

I never said that, Darkfox hasn't... Who exactly has?

 

An analytical discussion about how suspension works is NOT the same thing as a vicious attack on all live-axle cars that have ever been built.

 

I, and others, have said that there are aspects about GM F-bodies, Mustangs, and other cars that we do like, even if we are not particular fans of those cars to the point of buying them.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Cheap gas is pretty much gone... This isn't the 70s, the west has to compete with India and China for every last resource. The only I can see cheap gas reappearing overnight, is a drastic reduction in consumption spurred on by some kind of revolutionary technology.

 

petrochemicals are not in short supply, they are simply inflated in price. The real cost of pumping crude out of the ground is somewhere around $55 a barrel. The rest of the oil commodity price is speculation. Speculation is a valid activity, but it always corrects itself.

 

Just like speculating on housing. The price of real estate rose more in the last 5-10 years than any other time, and now we are seeing that correcting itself, and it is going to continue to go down for a little while. But it is going down comparatively quite fast, just as it went up fast.

 

Oil will do the same thing. The US could set it off by actually having an energy policy, rather than a bunch of bureaucratic crap.

 

Halo cars are nice but when your bleeding money and about to go bankrupt, it's not the time to be investing significant amount of money in them.

 

Toyota, is currently one of the most successful car companies in the world. They got there by dumping their niche/halo cars and focusing on the vanilla, cash cow cars like the Camry. After dominating all the popular segments in the market. Toyota has just recently decided to enter niche/halo cars to build new revenue streams beyond their core business.

 

I agree with you to a point. Toyota may be selling. But they aren't selling anything to any enthusiast. There is not any new or recently used Toyota that I would buy. I would have to go back to a 91-94 SW20 MR2 Turbo to find a Toyota that I would own.

 

So they sell appliances. they have gotten to the top rung. And they won't be selling me anything anytime soon. What are they going to do with their resources? Buy up more of Subaru/FHI, and blandify those models? (Exiga anyone?)

 

I would venture that companies with halo cars would do themselves more DAMAGE by cancelling them than keeping them on, and keeping them lean and competitive, even during this economic condition.

 

GM, Ford and Chrysler don't have the money or time to be wasting on niche models. They are fighting for their very survival at the moment. They need to bring the core cars up to scratch first.

 

I dunno about that... They are having a rough time... but what is getting them the most press right now?

 

Mustang, and 10 thousand factory and aftermarket versions.

 

Three years of coverage of the Chevy Camaro, before job one at the factory has even been started.

 

Corvette ZR1 for $100,000. Hardly seems like the endeavor of a starving company.

 

Challenger. If the Challenger weren't getting press, Chrysler wouldn't be getting hardly any press at all, other than cutting some white-collar jobs. Challenger is bringing people into showrooms to see one. It is Chrysler's problem that they have no other products to send those people home with, when they BOTCHED the Avenger/Sebring as badly as they did.

 

If Ford, GM, or Chrysler were to cancel those name plates, there would be a HUGE backlash against ALL of their other products. So I would say that a halo car is somewhat necessary.

[ShrinerMonkey]

There would not be "HUGE" backlash because the numbers of these cars sold is small and getting smaller. Does your average Chevy buyer care that the Corvette even exists?

 

Point is if you can't make your bread and butter cars competitive you have no reason to be investing millions in halo cars that do little to nothing to improve your bottom line.

 

The chickens of the big 2.8 investing everything in high profit SUVs and trucks are coming home to roost.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Someone who is looking for the pretty blue car over there... is never going to care. They only care about what the local lot has, and whether they like the color or not. A salesman could probably sell them a Tata Nano, if they had them in stock. Sheeple buy whatever cars are available, or whatever the neighbor has, or they heard something about on TV a while back.

 

But someone who knows even a small amount about cars, and thinks that the halo cars are cool... all the way up to we dyed in the wool enthusiasts know what is available, and their sales can be gained or lost by the right or wrong product. That is where product planning, design, and marketing come in.

 

if those Halo cars were to be unceremoniously cancelled, there would be NO incentive to buy a Cobalt over a Corolla, or a Focus over a Sentra... And the bad taste left in an enthusiast's mouth might be enough to sour those people on the brand for some time to come. Do you think a Corvette owner is going to be brand loyal to the Chevy dealer for his wife, son, daughter, elderly parents, or anyone who asks his opinion, if Chevy cancelled the Corvette?

 

Does anyone remember the clamor that GM received when it CANCELLED the F-bodies before? Do you think the 2010 Camaro would exist now without that? Or the Letter writing campaign that saved the Mustang from becoming the Probe in the late 80s? There ARE people who take this seriously. And not necessarily a small number of people. Look how many people pack racetracks on Indy 500 day, or at NASCAR events. At least SOME of those people LIKE CARS, and would be dissappointed if the halo cars went away.

 

If all there are are appliances, why not buy a japanese or korean appliance. They are currently better and japanese has been better than american attempts at appliances for some time, save maybe the old Ford Taurus, and the asian brands have better value per dollar than the domestic appliances. If there isn't a reason to support the domestics, to encourage them to build other fun cars that are popular, and encourage them to build better appliances, then why bother?

 

GM is just NOW starting to design and build better small cars with the brand new Malibu, and the Cruze isn't due out for another two to three model years. The Cobalt isn't that good, compared to Civic, Corrolla, or Hyundai Sonata, and the like. Focus is three chassis generations old, and Ford has barely announced that it will bring the euro-based fords over, after retrofitting it's truck plants to build new small cars. That is going to take years, also. Toyota and Honda have been on top of this game for some time now, if we are talking about appliances. Chrysler isn't even on the map, the Caliber is pretty poor, and the Neon wasn't even all that.

 

The domestics need to get in gear, but pissing off their customers by canceling what one bargaining chip they each have, is colossally stupid. I may not like them, but they are getting a lot of positive feedback, and I won't deny them that.

 

Then there are the enthusiasts who are so dedicated that they continue to buy fun halo cars, even if they don't make the most practical sense, and if the domestics cancel all of those, then they leave enthusiasts without any options at all, which they are dangerously close to anyway.

 

Not everyone wants or has a use for an automotive appliance, and some people DEMAND more. If Big 3 wants to ignore that, they'll lose the sales, which is hard to justify, if they are starving as much as is claimed.

 

Appealing to the LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR, and the EASIEST sale is what has gotten the auto industry into the pickle it's in.

 

IF the car companies worked for the harder sales, the products would be BETTER, and the easier sales would still happen, and EVERYONE would be happier with their cars.

 

Enthusiasts drive the trends, the sheeple customers just buy whatever happens to be available at the time, always have, always will. Planning for the Sheeple is cheating everyone else, especially the knowledgeable enthusiast with cash to spend on a big ticket item that he/she might not actually NEED to buy.

 

How many Mustang/Camaro/Corvette/Challenger owners have multiple other cars from the same brand? My neighbor has a GT500 convertible. He drives an F150, and his wife has a new Fusion SE. Do you think that would hold out if Mustang were cancelled? What is to keep him from buying a Tundra and a Camry if Ford completely ticks him off by doing that?

[ShrinerMonkey]

Wow, what a gross misunderstanding of the market. Auto companies only responsibility is to make profit...nothing more. Customers don't just buy what is available, they tell companies what to buy with their dollars, not the other way around. Catering to a few brand loyal enthusists is not going to make enough profit to sustain a company. Appliances or not, those Camrys, Accords, and Hyundais are making their respective companies profitable. Where are the halo cars for Honda or Toyota?

 

It wasn't appealing to the lowest common denominator that got the domestics into their pickle, it was going all out for profitable trucks and suvs and letting cars rot on the vine.

[05GT Guru]

GM has full sized mid sized and compact cars that get 30mpg or better. You act like GM has no good economy cars. Impala is a huge car that gets 30+mpgfreeway.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Wow, what a gross misunderstanding of the market. Auto companies only responsibility is to make profit...nothing more. Customers don't just buy what is available, they tell companies what to buy with their dollars, not the other way around. Catering to a few brand loyal enthusists is not going to make enough profit to sustain a company. Appliances or not, those Camrys, Accords, and Hyundais are making their respective companies profitable. Where are the halo cars for Honda or Toyota?

 

It wasn't appealing to the lowest common denominator that got the domestics into their pickle, it was going all out for profitable trucks and suvs and letting cars rot on the vine.

 

I am not the one with the misunderstanding.

 

Auto companies making a profit is not just a function of offering what customers want. Labor costs, and government regulations have more of an effect on profitability than customers do. And most customers buy cars out of necessity and brand image than whether the product is TRULY superior.

 

The Legacy is a better car, technically, than most others in it's class, yet it doesn't sell well, due to availability issues, and lack of public knowledge, not based on the merit of the vehicle itself. People can't just point at one on their local car lot, and say "tell me more about that car..."

 

You can see that the Big 3 aren't absolutely worried about customers, because they *AREN'T* producing what customers want, I agree with you there. Camry and Accord, Corolla and Civic are hands-down beating all of their domestic competitors. INCLUDING the Impala, regardless of it's MPG number. Big 3 mainstream cars are acceptable, but they aren't superior, and they aren't gaining marketshare ground. They are losing it.

 

Honda and Toyota both WAY outsell and outclass the Impala, and the previous Malibu. It is COMPLETELY UPFRONT that the new Malibu was HARD TARGETED at the japanese, because GM needed it. Ford can't seem to muster that yet. Hopefully bringing over the superior european products will help with that. Chrysler needs a lot of help to reset and try again.

 

Cobalt, Focus, Aveo, even 500/Taurus have serious trouble competing in the appliance market with Camry, Accord, Corolla, and Civic. Those are the widespread appliances that the sheeple are likely to buy in massive numbers.

 

Appealing to the lowest common denominator IS WHY THEY SOLD SUVS SO HARD!!!!!

 

Putting SUVs forward due to CAFE rules being less restrictive on light trucks, SUVs being higher margin due to being based largely on trucks until recently, and now being unable to adapt to the market.

 

If they had a more diverse plan, and catered to building cars good enough for enthusiasts, they would have had better quality, gotten better reviews, better public opinion, better brand image, and their lineup would have been better prepared for this economic change.

 

Catering to enthusiasts does NOT mean that the general public would shun those products. Catering to higher demands, NOT the lowest common denominator means that the products would be more appealing to EVERYONE. And Enthusiasts help sell cars to other people as well.

 

What happened when GM got serious about the CTS? They designed a car that an enthusiast can actually consider buying. Guess what. It is mainstream popular, and a lot of people like it.

 

THAT IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT. I am not saying that the only way to pay attention to the enthusiast is to build ten variations of the Corvette, Camaro, Mustang and Challenger. Catering to an enthusiast is offering ALL of your products of a good quality so that someone who knows cars can look at the product and know it isn't a piece of disposable trash, like a lot of the domestic car products have been for about 20 years.

 

Someone who likes a Camaro, but needs to haul kids and the wife around is still an enthusiast if they drive a G8 or a CTS. But they aren't likely to buy a POS just because it says GM on the side.

 

Imagine if they treated EVERY market segment, and EVERY product like it should be taken seriously by people who know cars well. Even people who DON'T know cars well would take them seriously, also.

 

You and I, Shriner, are saying similar things about GM's product decisions for mainstream cars. They should have been doing better already, now they are late to the game.

 

But how do you do better? How do you design and market better cars? Who do you build those cars for?

 

If you build cars for people who know cars, you get FUN cars, like Camaro, CTS, Solstice Targa, Sky, Astra and Aura. Decent vehicles.

 

If you design cars for people who don't know cars, you get cobalt, and pretty much every mainstream GM car from the mid ninetys to the mid-2000s. Designed for the masses, and assuming that the masses are too stupid to know what a good car is.

 

The masses still bought those cars, and were dissappointed. The enthusiasts derided and DID NOT buy those cars, because they were CRAP. They bought imports that were NOT crap, and Honda and Toyota built them fairly good quality little appliances.

 

Honda and Toyota have four of the best selling cars in their classes, with the Accord, Civic, Camry and Corolla. The fundamentals are sound, and the cars sell, especially now. Enthusiasts looking for a toy know they cannot buy a Toyota, and only the S2000 counts from Honda. But enthusiasts looking for a family car know where to get them.

 

GM, Ford and Chrysler DO NOT have the fundamentals down anymore. Their mainstream cars, are lagging behind, both midsize and compact. Chrysler actually had a good thing with the 300C, but have left it to whither on the vine, with no updates since it was introduced. They don't have the fundamentals down, either.

 

The ONLY bargaining chip that the Big 3 have left are the retro muscle cars. If it weren't for them, and the few people who might still use pickup trucks, and any remaining BRAND LOYALISTS, the big 3 dealers would be ghost towns compared to the Honda and Toyota dealers. The mainstream cars are all on the Japanese, and now Korean side. the new Malibu is the first return fire we've seen from the big 3 in the mainstream segment.

 

the Big 3 are in a defensive position, and the retro halo cars are their only remaining effective weapon, until they re-build their mainstream car reputation, which is happening very late. Again, if they had been working for the harder sale, rather than the lowest common denominator (SUV) sale years ago, they would have the products in place that they need.

 

The large japanese companies are NOT in a defensive position, they are in a fortified position, with a well established mainstream lineup. The Koreans are hungry to beat the Japanese at that game, with extended warranties, and a lot of product development, most recently the Hyundai Genesis.

 

The Big 3 need to keep their trademark halo cars in place while they rebuild. The Japanese need to diversify into the more enthusiast toy niche markets, and compete with those niche products, where they have very little after the sporty car demise in the mid 90s. Nissan has come back more than Honda or Toyota in that respect, with the G-series and Z, now GT-R.

 

Now explain to me where I am wrong, there. Because I am not wrong.

[franklin]

I am not the one with the misunderstanding.

 

Auto companies making a profit is not just a function of offering what customers want. Labor costs, and government regulations have more of an effect on profitability than customers do. And most customers buy cars out of necessity and brand image than whether the product is TRULY superior.

 

The Legacy is a better car, technically, than most others in it's class, yet it doesn't sell well, due to availability issues, and lack of public knowledge, not based on the merit of the vehicle itself. People can't just point at one on their local car lot, and say "tell me more about that car..."

 

You can see that the Big 3 aren't absolutely worried about customers, because they *AREN'T* producing what customers want, I agree with you there. Camry and Accord, Corolla and Civic are hands-down beating all of their domestic competitors. INCLUDING the Impala, regardless of it's MPG number. Big 3 mainstream cars are acceptable, but they aren't superior, and they aren't gaining marketshare ground. They are losing it.

 

Honda and Toyota both WAY outsell and outclass the Impala, and the previous Malibu. It is COMPLETELY UPFRONT that the new Malibu was HARD TARGETED at the japanese, because GM needed it. Ford can't seem to muster that yet. Hopefully bringing over the superior european products will help with that. Chrysler needs a lot of help to reset and try again.

 

Cobalt, Focus, Aveo, even 500/Taurus have serious trouble competing in the appliance market with Camry, Accord, Corolla, and Civic. Those are the widespread appliances that the sheeple are likely to buy in massive numbers.

 

Appealing to the lowest common denominator IS WHY THEY SOLD SUVS SO HARD!!!!!

 

Putting SUVs forward due to CAFE rules being less restrictive on light trucks, SUVs being higher margin due to being based largely on trucks until recently, and now being unable to adapt to the market.

 

If they had a more diverse plan, and catered to building cars good enough for enthusiasts, they would have had better quality, gotten better reviews, better public opinion, better brand image, and their lineup would have been better prepared for this economic change.

 

Catering to enthusiasts does NOT mean that the general public would shun those products. Catering to higher demands, NOT the lowest common denominator means that the products would be more appealing to EVERYONE. And Enthusiasts help sell cars to other people as well.

 

What happened when GM got serious about the CTS? They designed a car that an enthusiast can actually consider buying. Guess what. It is mainstream popular, and a lot of people like it.

 

THAT IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT. I am not saying that the only way to pay attention to the enthusiast is to build ten variations of the Corvette, Camaro, Mustang and Challenger. Catering to an enthusiast is offering ALL of your products of a good quality so that someone who knows cars can look at the product and know it isn't a piece of disposable trash, like a lot of the domestic car products have been for about 20 years.

 

Someone who likes a Camaro, but needs to haul kids and the wife around is still an enthusiast if they drive a G8 or a CTS. But they aren't likely to buy a POS just because it says GM on the side.

 

Imagine if they treated EVERY market segment, and EVERY product like it should be taken seriously by people who know cars well. Even people who DON'T know cars well would take them seriously, also.

 

You and I, Shriner, are saying similar things about GM's product decisions for mainstream cars. They should have been doing better already, now they are late to the game.

 

But how do you do better? How do you design and market better cars? Who do you build those cars for?

 

If you build cars for people who know cars, you get FUN cars, like Camaro, CTS, Solstice Targa, Sky, Astra and Aura. Decent vehicles.

 

If you design cars for people who don't know cars, you get cobalt, and pretty much every mainstream GM car from the mid ninetys to the mid-2000s. Designed for the masses, and assuming that the masses are too stupid to know what a good car is.

 

The masses still bought those cars, and were dissappointed. The enthusiasts derided and DID NOT buy those cars, because they were CRAP. They bought imports that were NOT crap, and Honda and Toyota built them fairly good quality little appliances.

 

Honda and Toyota have four of the best selling cars in their classes, with the Accord, Civic, Camry and Corolla. The fundamentals are sound, and the cars sell, especially now. Enthusiasts looking for a toy know they cannot buy a Toyota, and only the S2000 counts from Honda. But enthusiasts looking for a family car know where to get them.

 

GM, Ford and Chrysler DO NOT have the fundamentals down anymore. Their mainstream cars, are lagging behind, both midsize and compact. Chrysler actually had a good thing with the 300C, but have left it to whither on the vine, with no updates since it was introduced. They don't have the fundamentals down, either.

 

The ONLY bargaining chip that the Big 3 have left are the retro muscle cars. If it weren't for them, and the few people who might still use pickup trucks, and any remaining BRAND LOYALISTS, the big 3 dealers would be ghost towns compared to the Honda and Toyota dealers. The mainstream cars are all on the Japanese, and now Korean side. the new Malibu is the first return fire we've seen from the big 3 in the mainstream segment.

 

the Big 3 are in a defensive position, and the retro halo cars are their only remaining effective weapon, until they re-build their mainstream car reputation, which is happening very late. Again, if they had been working for the harder sale, rather than the lowest common denominator (SUV) sale years ago, they would have the products in place that they need.

 

The large japanese companies are NOT in a defensive position, they are in a fortified position, with a well established mainstream lineup. The Koreans are hungry to beat the Japanese at that game, with extended warranties, and a lot of product development, most recently the Hyundai Genesis.

 

The Big 3 need to keep their trademark halo cars in place while they rebuild. The Japanese need to diversify into the more enthusiast toy niche markets, and compete with those niche products, where they have very little after the sporty car demise in the mid 90s. Nissan has come back more than Honda or Toyota in that respect, with the G-series and Z, now GT-R.

 

Now explain to me where I am wrong, there. Because I am not wrong.

 

 

 

Do you expect to have carpal tunnel at some point. I've never seem anyone type as much as you.:lol:

[IwannaSportSedan]

It is good for dexterity.

[camber]

petrochemicals are not in short supply, they are simply inflated in price. The real cost of pumping crude out of the ground is somewhere around $55 a barrel. The rest of the oil commodity price is speculation. Speculation is a valid activity, but it always corrects itself.

 

Just like speculating on housing. The price of real estate rose more in the last 5-10 years than any other time, and now we are seeing that correcting itself, and it is going to continue to go down for a little while. But it is going down comparatively quite fast, just as it went up fast.

 

Oil will do the same thing. The US could set it off by actually having an energy policy, rather than a bunch of bureaucratic crap.

 

Still, doesn't change the fact that oil will be needed by China and India. Long term oil prices are not going to be trending downwards.

 

I would venture that companies with halo cars would do themselves more DAMAGE by cancelling them than keeping them on, and keeping them lean and competitive, even during this economic condition.

 

These car companies are on deaths doorsteps. They just can't afford to spend time, money and energy on cars that have no profit or loss leaders.

 

They need results and now.

 

Halo/performance cars are nice toys for an up and coming profitable company but not when your on the verge of bankruptcy.

 

The only domestic "performance" car that has shown to give back a decent return has been the Mustang. Even during the tough time Ford has been able to keep the Mustang profitable.

 

I dunno about that... They are having a rough time... but what is getting them the most press right now?

 

Mustang, and 10 thousand factory and aftermarket versions.

 

Three years of coverage of the Chevy Camaro, before job one at the factory has even been started.

 

Corvette ZR1 for $100,000. Hardly seems like the endeavor of a starving company.

 

Challenger. If the Challenger weren't getting press, Chrysler wouldn't be getting hardly any press at all, other than cutting some white-collar jobs. Challenger is bringing people into showrooms to see one. It is Chrysler's problem that they have no other products to send those people home with, when they BOTCHED the Avenger/Sebring as badly as they did.

 

If Ford, GM, or Chrysler were to cancel those name plates, there would be a HUGE backlash against ALL of their other products. So I would say that a halo car is somewhat necessary.

 

Unfortunately, getting press for performance cars is good for enthusiasts but not car market in general. All the press surrounding this cars just makes domestic manufacturer's more out of touch of what people really want or need. Also, advertising a mass market car that is coming into production for 4-5 years is never a good thing. People, will already be tired of the design before it hits the street.

 

I would say that "halo" cars are necessary but not the performance cars that domestics have been pushing in the current economic climate. They need to be promoting a different type of "halo" car during this transitional period.

[crazyjay1089]

They need to be promoting a different type of "halo" car during this transitional period.

 

Like the Volt? I'm really hopeful that the Volt actually gets the mileage promised and comes out on time. I read in Atlantic Magazine last month that the battery needed isn't developed yet and engineers are building the car based on the assumption that a battery with the right size/weight/charge capacity will all be there in time for production. Scary gamble.

 

I just don't understand how Fisker's Karma is doing exactly what the Volt wants, and it's scheduled for production sooner. Granted the $80k price tag is double the Volt's expected price tag, but that expected price tag is only speculative and will probably be higher.

 

As for the Camaro --- it can probably still be a profitable car. It looks great, and if it ends up driving better than a Mustang it will probably win over a lot of people in the market for an affordable sports coupe. Development costs were probably high though, and will be hard to recoup.

[IwannaSportSedan]

@Camber.

 

If these companies are dead WITH their halo sporty cars, then they will be dead even faster without them, and it would be too late either way to save them. Cancelling the most well known products with the most market equity in their nameplates is tantamount to slitting your wrists to bleed out disease. You bleed out your life, too.

 

IF the companies can be saved, they need some tradition on their side, to remind buyers of past better days, while new products spur new better days. Chevy and Dodge are just getting that back now. Cancelling them now would be a complete waste of at least 5 years of product development, for nothing. Mustang is the same way although it needs an update (and will be getting one for '10, but probably not the IRS it needs.) and it never completely went away.

 

You say that the companies are near death, but that they need to ditch what brand equity they have left, in traditional nameplates, and develop a "new kind of halo car"???

 

Where exactly, according to your own estimation, do they have the resources to re-invent that wheel right now?

 

They have the attention getters in place now. NOW they need mainstream, and mainstream are de facto NOT halo cars. Malibu is a start. Cruze needs to arrive sooner than it is slated.

 

Chrysler needs to refresh the 300/Charger with weight loss and better interiors. They need to drastically re-skin the Avenger/Sebring inside and out.

 

Ford needs to get a whole lot less fundamentally bland with the Taurus, and quit mucking with the details, like the name. The Fusion/Milan isn't bad, but could use a bit more visual punch, Focus is selling only because that is what they have available. Euro Focus would have been selling well months and years ago, when the US Focus was stagnant.

 

Pontiac has a nice G8. Charger is decent, but needs Challenger's 6-speed manual for '09. They both need weight loss programs.

 

Ford, after getting their mainstream house in order, need a fun practical car, to compete with G8 and Charger/300. RWD. They would be better to actually use Mercury (it may be sticking around after all, who can tell) and target the G37 sedan and coupe, and undercut G8, CTS, and Charger/300's weight problems, and have more performance just by that fact. 3500-3700lbs is much better than 3900-4200lbs.

[Barrok]

I agree with camber. IWSS, more often than not you take the "enthusiast" side to an argument. Enthusiants, regardless of what you think, won't keep GM or any other company afloat. GM needs to sell what people want to buy, and that isn't 100k sports cars. The FORD GT was a badass car but look how far it took ford?

 

My buddy just bought a chevy aveo for the gas prices. He could give a rats ass if Chevy made a Zr1 or not, or even a corvette.

 

Plain and simple, supply and demand. You need to sell what people are demanding regardless of what the enthusiast market wants.

[ShrinerMonkey]

Oh my goodness IwannaSportSedan you certainly have some strange ideas.

 

Why would Ford be looking to compete with GM and Chrysler in a niche market like the G8? The G8 will LOSE money for GM because of the terrible exchange rate... same with the Saturn Astra. That is insane. TOYOTA is the real competition.

 

Halo cars are a complete waste of resources for companies that are on the ropes and bleeding cash faster than it can be printed. They also do nothing to extend and enhance the brands core image. How does the Corvette extend the brand image of a Chevy which should primarily be a quality car that any American can afford?

 

And back to the subject of this thread: Why is GM introducing a new pony car into a rapidly contracting market for such cars... YEARS after the concept was first shown no less?

 

Your "enthusist" argument holds no water. Enthusists represent a tiny portion of the market, most of whom have long ago abandoned the domestics for the imports and will likely never return.

[IwannaSportSedan]

If you'll note, I said they should compete with the RWD sedans AFTER they get their mainstream offerings in place. How is competing with a RWD sporty sedan a strange idea? Ford is one of the ONLY companies without one. Even Acura has the AWD RL, even though it is not all that. Lexus has IS... Caddy has CTS that is getting a LOT of attention. G8 is probably going to be jointly manufactured in Oshawa, along side the Camaro, in north america, to alleviate the conversion rate problem.

 

But BMW, Mercedes, AWD Audis, and others aren't exactly shrinking violets in the market. Not everyone wants FWD boring appliances, even if it sells to a lot of other people.

 

Maybe your ideas of people being so strict (never return?) are the strange ones... Have you seen recent Mustang rallys, or Super Chevy shows?, or One-Lap of America, or any number of other local, regional, or national automotive themed rallies. There are thousands upon thousands of people who go to those, and probably many more who don't get to those events for various reasons, yet still are enthusiastic about cars.

 

The enthusiasts for american muscle cars are holding on to previous models, somewhat out of nostalgia, but because new ones are only NOW becoming available, especially from Chevy and Dodge.

 

Motorsports is one of the biggest spectator sports in this country! America's "love affair" with cars is a well documented historical fact. That isn't just a handfull of kook enthusiasts, that is hundreds of thousands, or millions of people who are somehow, some way enthusiastic about some sort of a car.

 

I don't accept the premise that enthusiasts are THAT small a percentage. A minority, probably, but a very significant and sizeable minority of car buyers. And enthusiasts sell cars to others. Just like fashion mavens sell clothes to others, and techno "geeks" sell technology to others, by endorsement. Non enthusiasts do listen to what enthusiasts do and say about the specific topics. They read reviews by people more enthusiastic and involved.

 

It is a challenge, and I have to reality check myself sometimes... but sometimes our outlook on what everyone else does or does not do or like, may not be entirely accurate. I don't think yours is accurate here.

 

I won't be in line to buy any of them, I am a sports car guy, not a muscle car guy. But I don't ascribe my preferences to everyone else, or deny that other people with other opinions are not car enthusiasts of various stripes. There are 300 million people in this country, if we want to just talk about the US, and not the rest of the world... Even one percent of that is still 3 million people. I have a feeling that more than ONE PERCENT of the american people are car enthusiasts. Probably a lot more.

[05GT Guru]

Oh my goodness IwannaSportSedan you certainly have some strange ideas.

 

Why would Ford be looking to compete with GM and Chrysler in a niche market like the G8? The G8 will LOSE money for GM because of the terrible exchange rate... same with the Saturn Astra. That is insane. TOYOTA is the real competition.

 

Halo cars are a complete waste of resources for companies that are on the ropes and bleeding cash faster than it can be printed. They also do nothing to extend and enhance the brands core image. How does the Corvette extend the brand image of a Chevy which should primarily be a quality car that any American can afford?

 

And back to the subject of this thread: Why is GM introducing a new pony car into a rapidly contracting market for such cars... YEARS after the concept was first shown no less?

 

Your "enthusist" argument holds no water. Enthusists represent a tiny portion of the market, most of whom have long ago abandoned the domestics for the imports and will likely never return.

 

I just wanna say im not fully on Iwannasportsedans side or cambers, but your a fool if you think most car enthusiasts have ditched domestic cars for import and if you think there such a tiny population. I have seen thousands and thousands of these domestic car enthusiasts gather hundreds of times over and thats just in my state of WI. The new pony cars get the same gas mileage as all the turbo subaru/ import sport cars, but they weigh more than most and make more hp, so i guess the EVO x needs to the go and why did subaru spend all that money working on the new STI/WRX and they should def not waste there money on designing a new Legacy GT. Nissan should ditch the 370z and g37 and GTR. You people talk as if all the companies should be like toyota and ditch all performance cars and just go with eco cars. Its a sad world when people start believing that, thanks for making the world a boring bland place with thinking like that.

[chenc544]

There are 2 good reasons why the Camaro might get better mpg than the STI/Evo. First, AWD has higher drive train loss than RWD so it's not as efficient. But that's the price you pay for the advantages that comes along with AWD. Second, the Camaro's 6 speed probably has 2 overdrives just like the Corvette. It can do that because the V8 has such of broad torque band that it can cruise along at 1200 rpm in 6th gear just fine. This is the reason why Corvette has such of a high MPG rating for highway. The turbo-4's can't cruise along at such low rpm, it won't have enough power to get itself out of trouble especially without boost.

[05GT Guru]

I understand the reasons to why it gets good gas mileage and the 6 speed stick version can also cruise along at low rpms. But that doesnt change the fact that they get better or simular mpg with more weight and hp.

[chenc544]

The point is if you don't need/want AWD then there is no reason for you to get the likes of Subaru or Evo. Similarly if you want/need AWD then RWD pony cars is not for you. IMHO they are really not targeting the same buyers.

I have family that lives in FL and I have repeatedly advised them against getting a Subaru because they don't need it.

[NY2005GT]

All of your points a very valid. The biggest problem I see with the timing of this release is the economy, not the gas prices. People are going to buy these cars up, there is no doubt in my mind the V8 cars will sell like candy. Where they are going to get screwed is the person who wants one but can't afford to have 2 cars, and sadly, every day that number goes up. But the enthusiasts make up a big segment of sales, they may not be the majority but you are still talking 20,000- 40,000 units in a good year. Probably alot more the first year or two if they can build them fast enough. That isn't chump change by any stretch of the imagination so you really have to cater to both.

 

I just wanna say im not fully on I have seen thousands and thousands of these domestic car enthusiasts gather hundreds of times over and thats just in my state of WI.

 

This was yesterday, after half of us didn't show because it rained like hell, and that is only 1/2 of the cars, they go on behind me too,I think when all was said and done we had 39 show up out of 60 planned

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e28/nickbrehm/DSCN0330.jpg

[IwannaSportSedan]

Where they are going to get screwed is the person who wants one but can't afford to have 2 cars, and sadly, every day that number goes up.

 

That is always the case with some people. Not everyone can buy new cars, or more than one new car. I couldn't right now, even if I wanted to. But I am still an enthusiast, and pay attention to what new cars are coming out.

 

People who can't afford two cars are not the ones buying 30-40k muscle cars, anyway... But they do SEE those cars, and it affects brand perception and marketing. Folks who can only afford one car, if they like the new Camaro, or Mustang or Challenger, they are more likely to visit those dealers to find the one car that they do need and can afford.

 

Maybe other Chevys/GMs, Fords, or Chrysler/Jeep/Dodges will appeal to them. But the big three do have a hill to climb in that regard.

 

Weather around here has been weird, and kind of sucked this whole year, since this last winter. Cold, and lots of precipitation ALL year. That does have an effect on people being able to get out and about, both in terms of time and even a bit regarding money, as money for going to a car show sometimes goes to other incidentals and things. New sump pumps, etc...

 

I won't deny that there is some economic stuff going on right now. But people are still who they are, and they still like what they have liked in the past, for the most part.

[crazyjay1089]

I just wanna say im not fully on Iwannasportsedans side or cambers, but your a fool if you think most car enthusiasts have ditched domestic cars for import and if you think there such a tiny population. I have seen thousands and thousands of these domestic car enthusiasts gather hundreds of times over and thats just in my state of WI. The new pony cars get the same gas mileage as all the turbo subaru/ import sport cars, but they weigh more than most and make more hp, so i guess the EVO x needs to the go and why did subaru spend all that money working on the new STI/WRX and they should def not waste there money on designing a new Legacy GT. Nissan should ditch the 370z and g37 and GTR. You people talk as if all the companies should be like toyota and ditch all performance cars and just go with eco cars. Its a sad world when people start believing that, thanks for making the world a boring bland place with thinking like that.

 

Subaru, and even Nissan and Mitsubishi, are much smaller companies than Ford or GM. Smaller companies can better cater to smaller markets (i.e. your niche markets) because they don't need to sell a million cars. Ford and GM do; they need to have the majority of the market just to stay alive. They're bulky companies that lose bulky amounts of money when their (bulky) cars don't sell. That said, they don't need cookie cutter cars, they just need great cars. Not to say the ones they have are terrible, they're just not great. With this much competition, producing great cars should be a requisite for super-car companies like Ford and GM. A well-positioned, well-engineered product is always good news for any company.

 

If the Camaro is a great car, it will sell and Chevy will be vindicated for this drawn out process.

[SubLo]

So torn... want the new Camaro something awful. Love by Shrek though. Seriously contemplating selling

 

I'm a classic/muscle car guy by birthright and really heart my RWD tail-wagging antics and v8 grunt. I was on the fence with the GTO on the other side when I bought my car.

 

Geez... what to do. Can't have both unfortunately.

 

Sigh...

[chenc544]

Well Chevy certainly priced the Camaro very aggressively...

 

$22,995 for 300 hp 3.6L V6 LS

$30,995 for 422 hp 6.2L LS3 SS

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/10/13/2010-chevrolet-camaro-priced-ls-22-995-ss-30-995/

 

2010 Mustang better not be coming to this gun fight with a knife.