Jerboa113 Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 This article is a spin off from another article someone posted. I just cant believe GM is pushing this car back to 2010.. The "new" Mustang has been out since I bought my LGT.. GM is 100% grade A certified FAIL on this one.. wait any longer and the 35mpg requirement is going to push their too little too late coupe right out of production. They're talking about waiting till 2011 to bring out the convertible version... I just cant believe our govt expects us to bail this company out of bankruptcy when they do stupid things like this. I mean what is the problem? The concept hasn't changed a bit since it was announced in 06.. they had one that ran and drove in the transformers movie. thats out on DVD now and the car STILL DOES NOT EXIST. Here's the article: http://www.edmunds.com/il/chevrolet/camaro/index.html# "The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mblock66 Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 I have been following this car very closely as I am in the market for something in the RWD high performance arena. It seems from various sources that it will be hitting showrooms in the 1st qtr of 2009 as a 2010 model. This could have changed from the last time I read it but all of the forums are reporting 1st qtr 2009 for the base and 1 V8 model. Late 2009 for the convertible and the Z28/SS equiv the next year. I was really hoping for this to hit this year with the challender but for whatever reason that isn't going to happen. I just don't know if I can wait 2 more years for this. I am going to look at a leftover 2008 vette come the summer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
05GT Guru Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 Even if it was shown and or announced in 06 they always said it would be released in 09. So this really isnt anything new to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 There is also a story about how CAFE might be canning the RWD impala, and other things, and the ontario factory seems very unhappy with losing that additional production, nearly to the point of the CAW striking. If that happens, the camaro might very well be at risk. GM used to refresh cars every single year. Now they can't seem to build a new one in less than five. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
05GT Guru Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 Why would the camaro be at risk, they have always had RWD impalas until the late 90s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mblock66 Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 The Camaro will be produced PERIOD. All of the upfront R&D is paid for and they need to now recover those costs. Contracts have already been signed for preoduction parts and the assembly plant is boing built up. For them to back out now would put them under in a HUGE way. The Impala was never even started so it isn't a huge deal if they delay that or cancel the model Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 The caprice-based impala has absolutely nothing to do with it. It bears about as much relevance to new car production as the 1955 Chevy Bel Air. They are refitting the ontario plant for RWD zeta production. If the future RWD impala (a zeta platform car) gets cancelled, due to CAFE regulations, that means less work for that factory. GM has promised the CAW in that ontario plant a certain amount of new models, and thus a certain amount of work for those workers. If GM cancels those models, obviously, they can't fulfill their promise to those auto workers, and they seem to want to strike over it. That causes delays, and increased costs. Not to mention the canadian dollar exchange rate is making CAW some of the most expensive labor that GM employs. IF it comes down to just the Camaro at the ontario plant, and the CAW strikes in demand for more guarantees, GM could shutter the plant entirely, and cancel the Camaro altogether, or delay it even longer, if it needs to be built in Australia, or somewhere else that can be setup to produce zeta chassis cars. I'm not saying that it WILL happen, but it doesn't look all that rosey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
05GT Guru Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 GM alrady has plans for another vette after the ZR1, i think they need to let people experiment with this 625hp beast before the design a completley new setup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLegacy99 Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 GM used to refresh cars every single year. Now they can't seem to build a new one in less than five. http://www.carsoft.ru/auto/c_chevrolet/98chevy_monte_carlo_intimidator_4.jpg '98 Chevy Monte Carlo http://carscarscars.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/2007_chevy_monte_carlo.jpg And the 2007 Hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 Case in point to why NASCAR isn't about the cars. NASCAR is to cars what MTV is to music. Popular culture, but little bearing on reality. The Monte Carlo that people bought on the Chevy lot was about .0000001% commonly shared with the tube-framed engine that they race on the ovals. And one of the ugliest coupes ever produced, with the camry solara a close second, and both about as worthless in the realm of performance as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLegacy99 Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 Is there anyone besides NASCAR fans that actually buy the Monte Carlo? I just don't see anyone else going to the dealer and saying, "I have been just dying to get a Monte Carlo.....for the past 9 years." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerboa113 Posted January 29, 2008 Author Share Posted January 29, 2008 +1. If nascar was going to hold them to the whole production car rule like they used to, the production car should be v8 and RWD like the stockcar, maybe not 500hp, but the same type of powertrain. Sheet metal alone does not make it the same car. "The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underscore Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 Is there anyone besides NASCAR fans that actually buy the Monte Carlo? I just don't see anyone else going to the dealer and saying, "I have been just dying to get a Monte Carlo.....for the past 9 years." cheap people.. the price on them drops really quickly. +1. If nascar was going to hold them to the whole production car rule like they used to, the production car should be v8 and RWD like the stockcar, maybe not 500hp, but the same type of powertrain. Sheet metal alone does not make it the same car. the SS is v8 by the way, I think 300hp, but still FWD. Poor substitute for the Camaro... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
05GT Guru Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 There is no sub Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 That is a Porsche. "Porsche. There is no substitute." And for the most part, perhaps aside from the Cayenne SUV, it's true. The Carrera GT was amazing, the 911 is unique in it's class and never at the bottom of the list of it's competitors, and has been for 40+ years, the Boxster/Cayman is as pure and sublime a mid-engined sports car as most people can afford, shy of $100k. Camaro is MIA. And a Challenger or Mustang, or even the 04-07 GTO is not that drastically different in overall mission. Just differences in execution. But the Monte Carlo is certainly a shadow of it's 80's self, most unfortunately, and certainly has not served Chevy as well as the F-body used to, or possibly will again, if/when it arrives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLegacy99 Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 I dunno why you folks are worry about what GM won't have because of CAFE standards. They are clearly fine. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22887130/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
05GT Guru Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Of course the camaro will come out but im waiting until they release the new Trans Am, Gm always finds its way around standards, they have been lieing about tons of things on there cars, starting with the 69-70 454 ls6 chevelles had almost 500hp the crank they were rated at 400. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artmasterx Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Man... how much would tires cost on that beast if it really does sport 21" front and 22" rear tires, and I would guess wide as hell to boot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mblock66 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Of course the camaro will come out but im waiting until they release the new Trans Am, Gm always finds its way around standards, they have been lieing about tons of things on there cars, starting with the 69-70 454 ls6 chevelles had almost 500hp the crank they were rated at 400. Oh man that is my ideal car but I can't afford it. My fav car ever built is the 1970 chevelle SS 454 LS6. 1/4 mile in low 12's off the factory floor on pencil tires haha I have another one for you. How about the Buick Grand National or better yet the GNX. Rated like 100 HP lower for insurance reasons and to keep up the Buick image lol. The new corvette is sort of another. 2008 Ls3 engines showroom stock are putting down 400 to the WHEELS stock but are listed at 430 HP crank. BS haha 400 wheel is more like 475-480 crank HP they just didn't want to upset the Z06 market just yet so it is 50 hp underrated. I personally can't wait for the new camaro, I was a 1997 camaro owner but I don't know if I can wait ANOTHER year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generalleeharvey Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i217/generalleeharvey/DSCF0031.jpg http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i217/generalleeharvey/DSCF0035.jpghttp://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i217/generalleeharvey/DSCF0033.jpg These are from the PA Auto and Boat Show last Thursday in Harrisburg, PA. I saw the convertible at the GM Nationals and the roof finishes the look, making it more visually seductive. I also got Subie pics (Foresters, 2.5 GT, Outbacks, non STI WRX) but I got annoyed resizing them properly to fit in our VB Garage so I'll get around to that later... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VTGT Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 I think i like the challenger more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 I think I like the G37 more. The retro thing is cool to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there. I don't see how companies can hope to move toward the future, with their heads stuck so firmly up their past. It is fine that they build this stuff, the Challenger, Camaro, and more flavors of Mustang than Baskin & Robbins has ice cream... But they have nothing NEW. Where is the Chrysler Firepower? Where is the new-design Firebird on the Zeta chassis? Where is the Mercury Cougar Eliminator? All three could be new designs on the same chassis as their retro counter-parts, they wouldn't steal sales from their own companies, as people probably have one taste or the other, not both. But those of us who want new things, rather than new-old things, are stuck with very few options. G37/350Z pair, and RX8 are about the only other two RWD coupes (an RX8 is debateable as a coupe) on the market, in that price range, other than stepping up to the newer, blander E92 3-series, or the over-expensive and pudgy yet small 1-series. It kills me that Pontiac and Mercury especially aren't being allowed to have a piece of the RWD coupe pie, while the retro Chevy and Ford, as well as Dodge, get all the coverage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerboa113 Posted January 31, 2008 Author Share Posted January 31, 2008 automakers dont like to move forward with new designs because it makes more sense from the manufacturing perspective to use the same engine in everything, same chassis, same sheet metal etc. If you have the ford explorer mercury mountaineer and lincoln aviator for example, you have "3 vehicles" that are EXACTLY THE SAME.. and you will have people that will say one is better than the other. I have a friend whos parents say that the silverado and sierra are not the same vehicle. Unfortunatley as long as people keep buying the same old crap, they're going to keep making the same old crap. I think the slowdown in domestic sales this year may be an indicator to the manufacturers that people dont beleive there's any reason to buy a new car when their old car is the same damn thing, just not as shiny anymore. People see the retro thing as a return to what they used to perceive as quality. The 67 68 and 69 camaro shared the same platform but were all different. you think if they ever do release this thing that it's going to change in 10 years? probablly not. Automakers (especially GM) find something that works, and they run on it for 10 or more years. When people get tired of the same old design they refresh the headlights or the interior with some new curves, maybe put new rims on it and call it the eXtrEmE or something, paint it yellow and put it on the showroom floor and people flock to it again for another decade. I dont really think of the infiniti G series as anything really innovative either. They took the same motor from the altima and maxima, turned it the proper direction, and put the proper wheels to drive the car. Then they retuned it to make it APPEAR powerful, and then in fine print note that the power figures come from 5800rpm. I think if they're going to rate HP in the industry they should rate it at a set rpm, not at a peak or whereever they please. (that figure should be 3500 or so where people actually drive every now and then..) I blame ford.. but that's just because I dont like ford... I dont have a valid reason otherwise. "The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 automakers dont like to move forward with new designs because it makes more sense from the manufacturing perspective to use the same engine in everything, same chassis, same sheet metal etc. I am suggesting that the only thing they change is the interior and exterior, and maybe the Suspension, in Ford's case. Chassis an motors would be the same. The old method of leaving sheetmetal the same, the age of the Aries/Reliant, as I like to call it, is over. Now you have the Ford Flex/Lincoln MKT, or the Ford Taurus/Lincoln MKS. Same cars (unfortunately for Lincoln), DRASTICALLY different looks. New sheet metal on a new chassis is no longer that difficult, or even expensive for the auto makers, compared to the margins they can mark the cars up (MKS is a 40k+ Ford Taurus, I think they can afford the re-skin.) Your mention of the Lincoln Aviator is old. The Aviator is gone, and was supposed to be re-assigned to what is now called the MKX. Although that is a re-badged Edge, so the point isn't completely destroyed. Unfortunately as long as people keep buying the same old crap, they're going to keep making the same old crap. I think the slowdown in domestic sales this year may be an indicator to the manufacturers that people don't believe there's any reason to buy a new car when their old car is the same damn thing, just not as shiny anymore. That is just it. GM is barely crawling itself out of it's old hole, and CAFE could push it back in, if what Lutz keeps saying turns out to be true. (no new RWD Impala, less powerful engines, E85 emphasis (bogus), and no new diesels which people seem to be turning on to. Ford is in crap-town right now. I don't hate Ford, but they aren't giving me any reason to like their products right now. A real bona-fide sport sedan (or oxymoronic "4-door coupe" moniker) and sport coupe from Mercury, based on the S197 with IRS, or Fords upcoming global RWD platform would be very interesting to me. They don't even have a Mark IX coupe, or MKR rear-drive Lincoln sedan. They really have the second and third verses (Linc/Merc), same as the first (Ford) Chrysler, likewise has not much. 300 and Charger are passable for now, Challenger is a gimmicky, nostalgic throwback on the same chassis. It is going to appeal to mopar fans, but it isn't going to bring a whole lot of new people into Dodge showrooms. Their smaller cars are no-shows, and the Nitro, Aspen, Compass, Patriot, and others are just empty filler. They have very little that is compelling. People see the retro thing as a return to what they used to perceive as quality. The 67 68 and 69 camaro shared the same platform but were all different. you think if they ever do release this thing that it's going to change in 10 years? probablly not. Automakers (especially GM) find something that works, and they run on it for 10 or more years. When people get tired of the same old design they refresh the headlights or the interior with some new curves, maybe put new rims on it and call it the eXtrEmE or something, paint it yellow and put it on the showroom floor and people flock to it again for another decade. SOME people see it that way. I see it as a cheap cop-out. They could do the work, and make NEW designs, but it is easier to pluck the heart strings, and re-hash the 40-year-old past. They could just as easily be building the Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger on the same platforms, or lighter ones, with new designed bodywork. They chose not to. Maybe what you say is true, but it only works with the lowest common denominator of car buyers, which are most vulnerable to economic problems when they come up, (people who lease new cars when they really can't afford to, anyway, or trade over and over and over, and barely keep that loan circulating.) A real enthusiast is not impressed, and the Domestics should be well aware of that, considering their current and recent past fiscal positions. They are the ones slow on the uptake, not necessarily the majority of car buyers. I dont really think of the infiniti G series as anything really innovative either. They took the same motor from the altima and maxima, turned it the proper direction, and put the proper wheels to drive the car. Then they retuned it to make it APPEAR powerful, and then in fine print note that the power figures come from 5800rpm. I think if they're going to rate HP in the industry they should rate it at a set rpm, not at a peak or whereever they please. (that figure should be 3500 or so where people actually drive every now and then..) Actually VQ was designed to be Longitudinal, as well as transverse, and debuted in the 350Z, closely followed by the G-series and M35, FX35, and others, as well as the transverse version being in FWD nissans. It may be a slightly high strung motor. But MOST engines make peak horsepower pretty high on the tach. Just the way it is. Some worse than others below the peak. But this isn't some 8500 RPM screaming 4-cylinder with no torque at all... The VQ 6-cylinder is no slouch, and like the Subaru boxer, is perenially on best engine lists. It isn't a small block V8, but some people don't WANT a small-block V8. 330hp is not too bad for a naturally-aspirated 3.7 liter V8. E46 M3 had nearly as much horsepower, but was more lauded by being only 3.2 liters to do it. AND VVEL is a very interesting development that can vary valve timing and lift, if I remember the info I read about it correctly. It is much more than just Infiniti's brand of VTEC. It is much more adaptive, which makes the engine more efficient all over the rev-band. Personally, I would love to see the 4.5 Liter V8 that infiniti has, updated with VVEL, Direct Injection, tuned for some serious performance, and put into the G37 coupe body with a couple of little dress-up bits, with ATESSA AWD, either with a 6MT, or an automated clutch transmission, similar to the GT-R's transaxle. I blame ford.. but that's just because I dont like ford... I dont have a valid reason otherwise. That is your prerogative. I just wish Ford and Chrysler would build something compelling for those not swayed by blatant nostalgia from 40 years ago. I am only 30 years old, I don't remember 40 years ago, and I am not THAT impressed. GM is trying with the G8 and CTS, and everyone but me seems to be ga-ga about the Corvette ZR1, but they still don't have much that is affordably compelling. Like I said, the past is a nice place to visit, but I don't want to live there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
05GT Guru Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 The vq blocks suck for high horsepower applications, they should have recreated the RB line. Much much stronger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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