specb LCA bushings

[Underdog]

Whitetiger, Unclemat,

 

What are your thoughts in regard to the Whiteline RC Kit when paired with the following parts:

 

Bilstein HD's

Swift Springs

JDM RSB + AVO bracket

AVO LCA Bushings

Whiteline FSB *bushings* and steering rack bushings

 

My reasoning behind the swifts is that I wanted to reduce lateral and longitudinal weight transfer through spring stiffness and lowered CoG (assuming the HD's properly dampen them). I would rather not use really stiff swaybars to achieve the reduced roll since it reduces the independence of the suspension and does nothing for dive/squat. My guess is that the JDM RSB in conjunction with this setup will yield neutral steady state handling with mild understeer at the limit. It seems like the RC Kit will reduce the roll at the front end without increasing the roll stiffness, simply by shortening the torque arm (roll couple). While it may allow me to have tighter control over my suspension settings, will it require a stiffer rear swaybar to bring it back to neutral handling?

[Guest]

Looks ok, except I'd not mix JDM RSB and Whiteline. I'd do just JDM or pair of Swift sway bars. I do not like Whiteline bars.

 

No experience with steering rack bushings.

 

I also personally prefer non-offset LCA bushings - whitetiger will disagree here.

[Underdog]

Oops, I meant whiteline front sway bushings... not sway bar.

 

Thanks for the input. Now that you're local it will be a good opportunity to compare setups if we ever make it to the same meet.

[whitetiger]

it really all depends on what tire you are running to get neutral handling. to reduce understeer, you need to get more front end grip, or prevent the loss of front end grip. if you are running all season tires, then the grip will be less than a sticky summer tire. to get more grip out of the less sticky tire, you will need more weight tranfer to the outside tire during the turn (but not too much). the weight transfer on to the tire will force the tire in to the ground maintaing its grip. So if you have a less sticky tire, you want softer springs ans sways than if you have really sticky tires. This is just a general rule of thumb as different combinations of components can induce different handleing behavior in exchange for some loss of grip.

 

the whitline RC kit will help maintain the supension geometry better as you go through a turn, but you have to have the right setup to begin with with the more crucial components. In my case, i have the Whiteline roll center kit, but i also am running coilovers with some significant lowering and the very stiff perrin 25mm f+R sways. I have this setup because i run r-comp tires for AUTOX. The difference the Whiteline RC kint will only be fully noticed at the limit. but dont get confused. it will not decrease roll. it decreases bump steer on a lowered car. it maintains the proper distance of the steering knuckle relative to the chassis which reduces odd alignment angles at the limit of the toe arm and lower control arm's travel. Doing this will help maintain front end grip at the limit which is the name of the game.

 

will it make a difference if you buy them, yes. will you notice it, maybe, maybe not. It all depends on how hard you drive your car. IMHO the jdm sway is still too soft for our cars weight. And the bilstiens are still to soft to control aftermarket spring forces, contrary to what alot of people say. Id get a slighty bigger swaybar if i were you. you dont have to go crazy like me with the 25mm bars, but a 21/22 mm bar in the rear may give you alittle more rotation at the rear before the front tire begin to slip and understeer. LCA bushings and the whitline kit will prevent front suspension from moving in ways you dont want and the will keep you in control with grip through the turn. Oh And i cannot stress enough how important a good alignment is.

[whitetiger]

Looks ok, except I'd not mix JDM RSB and Whiteline. I'd do just JDM or pair of Swift sway bars. I do not like Whiteline bars.

 

No experience with steering rack bushings.

 

I also personally prefer non-offset LCA bushings - whitetiger will disagree here.

 

Actually Im beginning to change my mind about the offset bushings. Im beginng to see what XeonoK was talking about in terms of transitional manuvering and frequent direction change with respect to dynamic camber which is the result of the increase in caster given by the offset bushings. Especailly in autox applications. On the road, id say offset is beter since it gives you better braking stability and better initial steering response and stability on higher speed sweeping turns. But in autox, the need to overcome the increased dynamic camber hurts the car alittle in the slaloms. Im running ofset bushings now and i love the way the car goes though the slaloms now, but im tempted to see if removeing them for non0offset bushings will improve it more at the sacrifice of the other benefits of the offset bushings.

[Underdog]

Wow, awesome advice!

 

I run a 6/6 tire setup, 6 months of 225/40-18 Toyo T1-Rs (38F/36R) and 6 months of 215/45-17 Dunlop M3's (tough to monitor pressure but set to 37/37 @40deg). I do roughly 60 miles of driving a day and can go from sedate highway, bomb through a decreasing radius on-ramp, spirited backroads... etc.

 

Based on your advice it seems like perhaps it would be a better match to go with the Pinks and the AVO RSB. The Pinks because they are ~10% softer than the swifts and 10% stiffer than stock, which may be better suited for the HDs; the AVO RSB to tighten up the rear a bit more.

 

When it comes to bushings, the RC kit, etc.. it would be silly to upgrade the shocks and springs only to settle for less than ideal suspension settings. I would like to run as close to zero toe as possible and see what camber I can get before putting in plates and links.

 

Anyways, I'm going to start with just the struts/springs and see how it is. Do you have experience with the HD's or are you guessing that they still too soft for swifts?

[whitetiger]

if i were you, if get the koni inserts instead of the bilsteins. the konis are a better shock and they are adjustable too. also, they dont cost much more either. Tirerack.com sells them too so they are easy to get. Just to be clear, the shock is the most imporant part of the suspension and its where all the technology is. a good damper with good valveing can make all the difference regardless of what spring you choose. Plus the ability to adjust dampening is very nice to have to fine tune the ride. The pinks are a good choice, so are the swifts. The konis can handle both. BTW running a small amount of rear toe out can also help the rear come around too.

[Underdog]

Ugh, why did you have to say that! I have already ordered the HD's although they are national backorder and not expected to ship until the end of the month.

 

I agree that the strut is the crux of the suspension and had convinced myself that I could put my faith in the non-adjustable Bilsteins based on reviews and recommendations from people on the forum (Bosco and Racecomp come to mind).

 

Also, I don't want to make the car too loose. This is my DD and I see a lot of craptastic drivers out there. The last thing I need is an unexpected panic maneuver that puts me into a situation I'm not ready for. I am more attentive and capable than the average driver but I do not have any experience with limit oversteer.

 

Maybe I am handicapping myself from the get-go by buying the HD's on pretty much blind faith.

[whitetiger]

Hey, alot of people say they are fine. Im just a fan of adjustability. The konis are a true aftermarket strut meant to be paird with aftermarket springs. the bilsteins are not. you may be happy with the bils and pinks. alot of people say they are great. Ive done my fair share of installs and ive have had several take bils out just a few months after getting them to put in somthing else thats better. If i were you, id try to get a ride in LGTs equiped with different setups.

[Underdog]

Seeing as how my neighbor/landlord has a 3.0R, I should probably take it around the block to get a feel for how the Bilsteins feel.

 

I guess I just needed a starting point and the Bilsteins were the least expensive option that had overall positive reviews. The few times I've seen someone replace the Bils it was to go to a coilover setup which I did not want or need. With the Bilsteins on the car, it will free up my stock struts to be Koni'd or allow me to investigate other options.

 

I'm going to start with the swifts and work my way down in spring stiffness, all the way to stock spec.B springs if I need to. However, I like the idea of slight lowering from a CoG and aesthetic standpoint. Assuming the overall stiffness is increased, I would rather have a slightly underdamped ride if it means better ride quality over rough pavement (very common here in MA).

 

I really wish we knew more about the HD's. If they truly are the B6 (rest of the world) model then Bilstein said they are fine with springs that lower upto an inch. I wonder which springs, specifically, they were designed for.

[whitetiger]

Assuming the overall stiffness is increased, I would rather have a slightly underdamped ride if it means better ride quality over rough pavement (very common here in MA).

 

An underdampend car will ride worse han a properly dampend one. this is why the ride sux on a LGT with stock struts and aftermarket springs. Strut valving is meant to be paired with a specific spring rate. For the Bilsteins, the key is to find out what spring rate it was built to handle. For example, my tien flex coilovers are valved to be with the 8k/6k springs they come with. if i were to get a higher spring rate, i would have to send the dampers in to get revalved for the higher spring rates. Most of the aftermarket springs are all around similar spring rates regarless of how much they lower the car. Its unclear if the bilstiens are valved right for the springs, but i know the konis are. Also i wouldnt be so scared of a coilover setup. the are some very good entry level set that are also no much more expensive than the bilstein setup yet you get a well matched spring and strut with infinite height control and in some cases camber and dampening adjustability too.

 

Basically, the key to the best ride quality and handeling response is the right dampener and matched spring.

[Underdog]

Gotcha. I guess I was thinking in the case that the Pinks are too soft and the Swifts are too firm for the HD's, I would rather go with the Swifts because they would likely ride better over rough stuff at the expense of some floatiness. The alternative would be an overdamped setup (hypothetically) which would be nice and planted in sweepers and on the highway, but would be rougher over small road imperfections. Ideally though, I'd like to use the spring that Bilstein valved the strut for.

 

I do agree that having them matched is the best option. Maybe I should cancel my order on the HD's and look more closely into Tein Basic/Flex, or KW V.2 options. Tokico or Koni's are options too, I guess.

[Guest]

Seeing as how my neighbor/landlord has a 3.0R, I should probably take it around the block to get a feel for how the Bilsteins feel.

 

I guess I just needed a starting point and the Bilsteins were the least expensive option that had overall positive reviews. The few times I've seen someone replace the Bils it was to go to a coilover setup which I did not want or need. With the Bilsteins on the car, it will free up my stock struts to be Koni'd or allow me to investigate other options.

 

I'm going to start with the swifts and work my way down in spring stiffness, all the way to stock spec.B springs if I need to. However, I like the idea of slight lowering from a CoG and aesthetic standpoint. Assuming the overall stiffness is increased, I would rather have a slightly underdamped ride if it means better ride quality over rough pavement (very common here in MA).

 

I really wish we knew more about the HD's. If they truly are the B6 (rest of the world) model then Bilstein said they are fine with springs that lower upto an inch. I wonder which springs, specifically, they were designed for.

 

3.0R has different non-inverted Bilsteins!!! (so the rumor was) Probably even softer than SpecB ones. HDs are supposedly firmer than USDM SpecB.

 

I think JDM Bilsteins (except GT Rev.C/USDM) are great with good springs like Pinks or Swifts. Height adjustability and higher spring rates are the reasons to go with coilovers.

 

Also, I disagree about Konis. These are some hacks that potentially result in unsafe installation. I would never touch them. Not too mention Bilsteins are monotube inverted struts, much better technology.

[Underdog]

You guys are like the little angel and devil sitting on my shoulders. I am going to proceed with the HD's on order and if I need to, I'll get 'em revalved and dyno'd, or replaced. I am also going to start with swifts for the reasons I've stated and the fact that I can get them for ~60% of the price of pinks. It's not like my first try is what I'm stuck with forever, springs seem to have a decent resale value.

 

It will be interesting to compare the 3.0R Bilsteins with what I end up with. I got a peek of their Bilsteins through the huge gap between the wheel and arch, and it looked like the inverted Bilsteins I've seen on the site. Maybe just the valving is different? The p/n must be stamped on there somewhere...

[REM87O]

if i were you, if get the koni inserts instead of the bilsteins. the konis are a better shock and they are adjustable too. also, they dont cost much more either. Tirerack.com sells them too so they are easy to get. Just to be clear, the shock is the most imporant part of the suspension and its where all the technology is. a good damper with good valveing can make all the difference regardless of what spring you choose. Plus the ability to adjust dampening is very nice to have to fine tune the ride. The pinks are a good choice, so are the swifts. The konis can handle both. BTW running a small amount of rear toe out can also help the rear come around too.

 

Great post.

[whitetiger]

Also, I disagree about Konis. These are some hacks that potentially result in unsafe installation. I would never touch them. Not too mention Bilsteins are monotube inverted struts, much better technology.

 

 

Bah! Konis have been making inserts for many different cars for many years. the valving in the konis are better than any fixed perch bilstein strut for our cars. they are easy to install too. You just dont like doing this kind of work yourself so it doesnt seem attractive to you. And just because the bils are monotube, does not make them better. Again, its all about the valving.

[Underdog]

what is better about the valving in the Koni's? I would think stiffer valving is subjective and application-specific. Is the Koni technology better? Admittedly, I don't like the idea of opening up the KYB's to retro in the Koni insert.

 

To say that the valving in the Koni is better than any fixed perch bilstein is a pretty general statement. Can you back it up?

[Guest]

Bah! Konis have been making inserts for many different cars for many years. the valving in the konis are better than any fixed perch bilstein strut for our cars. they are easy to install too. You just dont like doing this kind of work yourself so it doesnt seem attractive to you. And just because the bils are monotube, does not make them better. Again, its all about the valving.

 

Let's assume valving is better. Are there any springs designed for Konis that would match that alleged better valving?

 

At least with Bilsteins (JDM) you can get Pinks there were specifically designed for them.

 

Truth is, noone offers really stiff springs for struts in our application. In other words, if one wants stiffer valving and springs, coilovers are the only option.

 

Finally I would not discount gas monotube inverted design from Bilstein. I need yet to repeat my comparison, but my initial impression was that JDM Bilstein valving is "quicker" than e.g. KW Variant 2 coilovers.

[Underdog]

Well I think what Whitetiger is saying is that the Koni's can be adjusted to match a sport-oriented spring.

 

It would be nice if those with the HD's and various springs would post up more comprehensive reviews of their setups. Usually the comments are to the effect of:

 

"Wow! This is how the car should have come from the factory! It's not too stiff and may actually ride better than stock. Car feels really planted!"

 

But they rarely post about how the capability in different circumstances, how the handling balance is affected, overall NVH, etc... This is why I decided I had to find out for myself...

[bgLGT]

Let's assume valving is better. Are there any springs designed for Konis that would match that alleged better valving?

 

At least with Bilsteins (JDM) you can get Pinks there were specifically designed for them.

 

Truth is, noone offers really stiff springs for struts in our application. In other words, if one wants stiffer valving and springs, coilovers are the only option.

 

Finally I would not discount gas monotube inverted design from Bilstein. I need yet to repeat my comparison, but my initial impression was that JDM Bilstein valving is "quicker" than e.g. KW Variant 2 coilovers.

 

The konis are adjusted to perfectly match a wide range of spring rates, basically, any spring out there for our cars. The length of the spring for JDM tophats is the only real issue. The Bilsteins are a great out of the box setup, no need for tuning. That's a definite plus for alot of people who just want to install something and forget about it. However, if you're willing to put in the extra work the Konis are simply more flexible.

[Guest]

The konis are adjusted to perfectly match a wide range of spring rates, basically, any spring out there for our cars. The length of the spring for JDM tophats is the only real issue. The Bilsteins are a great out of the box setup, no need for tuning. That's a definite plus for alot of people who just want to install something and forget about it. However, if you're willing to put in the extra work the Konis are simply more flexible.

 

I understand and appreciate adjustability. It's sure useful for those who want to fine tune their suspension.

 

Now, the claim was that Bilsteins are not sufficient for aftermarket springs. It's not true simply because there are no stiff springs available. Even Pinks/Swifts are barely stiffer than stock springs - people confuse lowering and resulting reduction in body roll with stiffer springs.

[bgLGT]

Now, the claim was that Bilsteins are not sufficient for aftermarket springs. It's not true simply because there are no stiff springs available. Even Pinks/Swifts are barely stiffer than stock springs - people confuse lowering and resulting reduction in body roll with stiffer springs.

 

100% agree, those Bilsteins are just fine for any pink/swift combo. In my case I want every last drop out of my struts. The Konis are able to handle far stiffer springs than I am currently aware even exist for the LGT. Some companies like TC Klein build coilovers around Koni inserts. So you get a coilover that you don't have to take off the car every 12-24 months to rebuild. I'm running Konis because the coilovers in my price range just aren't good enough.

[whitetiger]

Let's assume valving is better. Are there any springs designed for Konis that would match that alleged better valving?

 

Well, thats the point of adjustability. It gives the konis more of a range of use compared to the bils, and im sure that includes a range of springs that are stiffer than what the bils can handle.

 

At least with Bilsteins (JDM) you can get Pinks there were specifically designed for them.

 

Maybe so, but its almost impossible to buy brand new JDM Bils which turns people off to them, including me. They are nearly all used, and still pricey.

 

Truth is, noone offers really stiff springs for struts in our application. In other words, if one wants stiffer valving and springs, coilovers are the only option.

 

Exactly. this is why I am a strong beliver in (good)coilovers. But if you insist on having a fixed perch strut, the konis, tokicos or ohnlins are the way to go. They are just better suited for aftermarket springs.

 

 

Finally I would not discount gas monotube inverted design from Bilstein. I need yet to repeat my comparison, but my initial impression was that JDM Bilstein valving is "quicker" than e.g. KW Variant 2 coilovers.

 

I believe you here, because KW2's are not a high end coilover. they dont have very spophisticated valving. But that has nothing to do with the monotube deisgn. The benefits of the monotube are better more even heat dissapation and more support surface area for stability. Without the proper valving, these smaller benefits are trival. Its muvch better to have a better valved twin tube shock than to have a poorly valved monotube shock.

 

 

 

I know you have been through alot of different setups, but you cant compare the bils to economy entry level coilover like the kw2s or tien basics. Id compare them to the tien flex's, cusco zero2, RCE tarmac, or endless zeals.

 

With my Tien flex. Im beginning to see the limitations in their valving as i use them for DD/autox in the warmer months. they are much bettter than stock, but it would be nice if they took the small bumps alittle better. It would be nice if, in the future, i could get Ohlins sportline coilovers and get rid of my tiens. Those have some uber nice valving.

[whitetiger]

Well I think what Whitetiger is saying is that the Koni's can be adjusted to match a sport-oriented spring.

 

It would be nice if those with the HD's and various springs would post up more comprehensive reviews of their setups. Usually the comments are to the effect of:

 

"Wow! This is how the car should have come from the factory! It's not too stiff and may actually ride better than stock. Car feels really planted!"

 

But they rarely post about how the capability in different circumstances, how the handling balance is affected, overall NVH, etc... This is why I decided I had to find out for myself...

 

Well, what would be even nicer is if you could get the bils valved preciesly for a specific spring rate.

 

People post that becuase they dont have much experiance with driving the car on the limit. All they feel is the stiffer ride and assume that means less roll and better handling. Its really more complicated than that.

[Underdog]

Do you think it would be a worthwhile expense to send the struts to Bilstein after I've recieved them to have them dyno evaluated? $25/strut with a print out + any shipping. Maybe I could do one front and one rear? I'm not sure how you look at the shock dyno to figure out what spring rate is best... Is that something you guys could help with?

 

Revalving is $75/strut plus development costs if the valving target is not standard/recommended.