Richard B. Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 Wow, some hostility going on here. The cars listed in the op are definitely not even the same class as the lgt and nowhere in price. LGT's are listed with Passat, TSX, Camry, Accord, Altima, A4, IS250, G35, Mazaspeed6, S60. the a4 gets damn expensive after the very base model. in that case you COULD drag in a 328 stipper. my biggest concern is that people want to bring up price pint in comparison. but then...it's "look, i am faster than an m3 with my mods". even though the m3 has smg and all kinds of other crap, much deeper r&d etc...it costs 45+k for a reason. have you noticed the majority of the cars you list are japanese? I wonder if it has anything to do with how strong the euro is compared to our weakening dollar. it's like i said earlier...it's like comparing a 40$ timex to a 2k$ TAG. it's pretty obvious as well why i have a gt. I can't afford the 335xi. to keep it on point...subaru will lose the hp battle again if they don't give the legacy more than 250hp. i would love to get ahold of an sti legacy with clutchless manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbobum Posted July 17, 2007 Author Share Posted July 17, 2007 what the hell is this thread about anymore anyways? This thread has gone a little...off topic. The point is; the LGT is a great car, for what you pay for. Not as nice as a BMW, but more bang-for-the-buck than a BMW. I'm real happy w/my 05 LGT. However, when it comes time for my next car, as much as I want another Subaru, they don't offer a model after the 2.5 GT. Oh, and I'm sorry, but using the Impreza platform for a flagship is ridiculous. That would be like Ford using the Focus for a flagship or GM using the Cobalt. The Legacy is Subaru's premier car, and should be marketed as such. So, Take the current LGT, as is, w/no changes and use the boxer six which is already available in the car, and use the turbo also already available in the car, and mate the two together. The 3.0 already makes 250 hp, so all Subaru would have to do is get an additional 50 hp (let the aftermarket squeeze out the rest) so there wouldn't be any need to make drastic changes to the motor and reliability and warranty issues shouldn't arise. They even already have a transmission, the six-speed from the sti, so they wouldn't even have to develop that. My point is, for a little development, engineering and manufacturing upgrades; Subaru would get a large return. Sure, I can upgrade my 2.5 to 300hp for less, but I don't want a low-rpm pig w/a voided warranty. Plus, four cylinders are never as appealing as six. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Throttlejockey Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 the 3.0r doesn't need more power. it needs better gas mileage It already does. I'm averaging 22mpg mixed drivinhg and it's still tight. My GT was getting 23mpg when I got rid of it. Show me another AWD car that gets better. There aren't any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krzyss Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 What are EPA numbers for Legacy GT, 335xi, 328xi and IS250? Krzys PS I am sorry but our cars are not that fuel efficient. I wish Subaru was better. A4 2.0T 6sp MT AWD city 22 hwy 31 A4 3.1 V6 6sp M/T AWD city 17 hwy 27 BMW 328 6sp MT AWD city 19 hwy 28 BMW 328 6sp AT AWD city 20 hwy 27 BMW 335 6sp MT AWD city 19 hwy 27 BMW 335 6sp AT AWD city 20 hwy 29 Legacy GT 5sp AT city 18 hwy 24 Legacy GT 5sp MT city 18 hwy 24 Legacy GT 6sp MT city 17 hwy 24 Legacy 3.0R 5sp AT city 17 hwy 24 Lexus IS 250 AWD 6sp AT city 22 hwy 28 Subaru looks pathetic. And this is from company that claims to make as small enviromental impact as possible. No wonder they feature factory in their ads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inthedeck Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 But, you have to remember...which of these companies has Symmetrical AWD? Only Subaru (Maybe Audi, with their Quattro, but even that is a different system). The others only have systems that are biased towards one end (Front or Rear) until the system needs to use the other end. So, in being true...there's no other system like the Subaru system...and to be able to drive all 4 wheels constantly, I don't think Subaru is doing all that poorly. Imagine all the other cars having to use their systems on a constant basis...I wonder what mileage they would extract at that point in time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krzyss Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 my imagination is helped by these 2 entries A4 3.1 V6 6sp M/T AWD city 17 hwy 27 Legacy GT 6sp MT city 17 hwy 24 I see 27 vs 24. You have 2 systems that claim symmetrical split. Krzys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartg Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 The small environmental impact is in reference to the zero emissions factory. The Legacy has always been their flagship, and the 3.0R is now touted as the flagship Subaru, even over the spec.b. The STI is the flagship Impreza and a very big part of Subaru worldwide.You can see the direction they are going with the legacy, first drop the manual, then drop the wagon, release new flagship model with larger engine. What's next? Turbo? I think it is highly likely, but not with that engine. It will probably come in the form of biodiesel. Neither the STI or EVO are nice cars inside. The EVO has won every performance test slightly higher than the EVO, but the STI always has better reviews because it is more comfy and practical. Now it could be that the guys reviewing at 500 lb monsters and can't fit in a EVO. You don't see me b****ing and moaning because I don't have a 911 or skyline, because I can't afford it. Be happy with what you got, it's not a 328xi and it cost you half as much. When you can afford one and you would rather have that than a highly modified LGT than can kill any 328 with the same budget, don't go crying to their forums. The only way to make power out of a Lexus IS or GS is to drop in a Supra engine. A T88, FMIC, 850CC, Fuel Pump, 3" Straight Pipe, and meth injection is all you need to be in the 10's at that point. But that same Supra/IS/GS is no longer track or street worthy. A LGT and STI are not meant to be drag cars, they are a GT and a RALLY car. Both have their highlights and both have their downfalls. Both are dirt cheap performance. And to clear it up once again, THERE IS NO LEGACY STI. The Legacy 2.0GT spec.B Tuned by STI edition is nothing more than a JDM spec.B with the STI catalog of parts bolted on. No tuning involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praedet Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 I think a high-perf H6 in the 3.6 size might just be on the horizon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLegacy99 Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 What are EPA numbers for Legacy GT, 335xi, 328xi and IS250? Krzys PS I am sorry but our cars are not that fuel efficient. I wish Subaru was better. A4 2.0T 6sp MT AWD city 22 hwy 31 A4 3.1 V6 6sp M/T AWD city 17 hwy 27 BMW 328 6sp MT AWD city 19 hwy 28 BMW 328 6sp AT AWD city 20 hwy 27 BMW 335 6sp MT AWD city 19 hwy 27 BMW 335 6sp AT AWD city 20 hwy 29 Legacy GT 5sp AT city 18 hwy 24 Legacy GT 5sp MT city 18 hwy 24 Legacy GT 6sp MT city 17 hwy 24 Legacy 3.0R 5sp AT city 17 hwy 24 Lexus IS 250 AWD 6sp AT city 22 hwy 28 Subaru looks pathetic. And this is from company that claims to make as small enviromental impact as possible. No wonder they feature factory in their ads. I do believe that you have some 2008 ratings mixed in with 2007 ratings, which is why the Legacy looks god awful. Still, Subaru has room for improvement and oh so many options to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smoss Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 I do believe that you have some 2008 ratings mixed in with 2007 ratings, which is why the Legacy looks god awful. Still, Subaru has room for improvement and oh so many options to do so. My 2001 A4 1.8T got in the 30's on the highway. Less power than the LGT, but better ecomony for sure. No surpise, I expected it when I switched cars. I agree with some of what was said. My LGT lease is up next year. I love my car, but sometimes miss the "german tightness" that ISN'T in the SUBI. I will in no way look at a new GT. Why?? As mentioned, doesn't get me anything I don't have. I will be looking at the G35 AWD, but then there goes my manual transmission (which might be ok). We will see when I test drive it. It's all a compromise, just like almost everything in life However, one thing nobody metioned yet. The 3 series, IS, and Audi are all smaller than the LGT. I was surprised when I sat in all of these cars and felt cramped when compared to my LGT. I forgot how small my A4 was!!! The headliner feels much closer to my head. I am not a tall person either.. If the G35 is more money than I want spend (I would rather put the money into my house where I see a return) then I will buy my LGT out of the lease. Just my two cents. A turbo 6 is not really warranted given low sales of Subaru in general. I was recently in NY at a Toyota/Subaru dealership. The guy told me the Camry is selling like mad, Subarus aren't selling at all. No surprise. Here in VT Subarus sell like crazy, but we get much more snow.. Also, why do some think it is easy to just slap on a turbo the the H6??? Are you an engineer?? It maynot be as easy as you think. Why hasn't Acura simply added SH AWD to the TL?? It requires a redesign of the car. There are a lot of factors that come into play in the design aspect of things that you guys (or myself) aren't familiar with.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyjay1089 Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 Wow this thread went berserk... Kinda mad I missed it. I understand your complaint about not having a turbo 3.0. I think whole 1000hp shows how when a few Supra owners go wild, you get cars that aren't daily drivers, but give the stock cars a better name. The first thing you think when you hear about crazy modded 700+ cars is probably Supra. And it isn't that Subaru wouldn't like to have that sort of praise from tuners (it already has a lot), but it doesn't make sense when it comes down to money. Even Toyota wasn't making enough money off of the Supra to say they couldn't go on without it. I know it's coming back, but the Camry never went on hiatus because it's a cash cow. The Supra wasn't. Why waste money on developing a higher priced 3.0GT if you're having trouble selling your existing line with a feasible target demographic. America has a brand-based consumer who is often blinded by the name of a car. Subaru isn't BMW. They can't just put anything they want out and expect it to sell, regardless of whether its a good product or bad. Someone who can afford a BMW will often buy a BMW just so he can say so. Speaking of BMW, they're afraid of putting out the 1-series because of how it may tarnish their prestige. Acura pulled the RSX because, among other reasons, it was too cheap for the name, despite being a great car. That's how fragile and important branding is. When you compare the Legacy to the Camry's, Mazda6's, Accord's, and Sonata's you can see it has a shot at becoming a class leader. But if you move it up past that, the brand, not the actual car, becomes more of an issue. A Turbo H6 just won't work because who wants a $35k+ car that can be confused with an $18k- car (the 2.5 version)? Maybe a few passionate car lovers-- but for someone who wants to wow the neighbors, I'm sure a Merc or Bimmer would do much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoopMan Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 Turbo H6 has been done before by aftermarket tuners.... Should be a LOT easier than engineering an AWD system. Anyway, I agree A4 and 3 series too small (wagon market for me). A6 and 5 series too slow and expensive. Volvo V70 R more impressive on paper, more expensive, but less fun to drive IMO. All this talk about 1000 hp cars is rubbish. Only box stock car you can get with this kind of power is the Bugatti Veyron for $1.4 million. Of course the 'Fast and Furious' crew can claim whatever they want until they grenade their motor. How useful and clever. I think engine power is mostly a marketing tool that manufacturers use to maximize profit margin for a model range. Does a $50k S4 really have $20k more content than a $30k A4? Is an $80k RS4 really $50k better? Most drivers never get near the mechanical limits of these cars anyway. Maybe they have the money, but they probably don't have the talent (except in a straight line maybe), and Officer Friendly would not take too kindly to this kind of behavior anyway. So it boils down to 'mine is bigger than yours'. BFD. I have a blast with my inferior and obsolete LGT, I can safely blast past at least 95% of cars on the road, and my only power mod is an AVO filter and a reflash. Actually, I think the LGT is an extraordinary car for the money, which is why I got it! But a turbo H6 WOULD be nice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyjay1089 Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 The 1000hp may be bull, but it causes quite a stir when tuners come out with them. Most STi buyers have once looked on in awe at someone else's high-horsepower STi or WRX. Not to say you want one, because that wouldn't be practical if its your everyday car, but you look at your humble STi in a different light given it's potential. It adds to its appeal and reputation. In the case of the S4/RS4, Audi need jack up the price because development cost and any profit is going to be covered by a smaller amount of people since the cars are in limited production. You're definitely getting more car; maybe not the entire amount more, but don't think that they're making off with all the extra money you're paying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoopMan Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 I would partially agree about production numbers, and needing to spread out development costs over fewer units. However, these companies follow the laws of supply and demand, and if the demand is there they jack the price. The big 3 were doing this for years with SUV's, to compensate for poor margins with their passenger cars. Now that those days are over, they are sucking wind. Small cars are sold with VERY small margins. That is why the Japanese got smart and rolled out luxury brands, Lexus, Infiniti and Acura. They are doing very well on those. The big success story is Porsche, they make bucketloads by selling ONLY high end cars. They were going to buy VW, I think, but I believe the German government nixed the deal (Not sure of my facts on this deal, I freely admit). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krzyss Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 I do believe that you have some 2008 ratings mixed in with 2007 ratings, which is why the Legacy looks god awful. Still, Subaru has room for improvement and oh so many options to do so. Straight from horse mouth, this time according to http://www.fueleconomy.gov/ manuals Legacy GT 18 24 (17 24 spec B) BMW 335i 17 26 Audi A4 (V6) 15 25 Audi sucks in city and Legacy on highway. Krzys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vimy101 Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 ^ All three cars have similar power/performance as well. I'm getting 26.7mpg as per nav for the last 5000 miles 75/25 city/interstate. The Gas milage poll shows most folks getting 22-23 total average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbobum Posted July 18, 2007 Author Share Posted July 18, 2007 Anyone complaining about the gas mileage of the LGT or upset it runs on premium bought the wrong car. Subaru provides you the perfect car, the 2.5i. For those who enjoy driving, and don't mind spending a little extra at the pump (still not near as much as people flush away in SUVs and pickups), and don't want to spend $40k+ on a car, the 3.0 GT is the ticket. The 3.0 GT would allow one to drive a 300hp AWD car with full warranty (something aftermarket parts tends to void) for thousands less then an Audi, BMW or Mercedes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EyeFlyIsTheEye Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 For almost three years of ownership, I think I got a good car for $25k that's only major drawback is the shiatty service from SoA and the dealers in my area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zmarko Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 I can't believe people are still discussing/arguing about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLegacy99 Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 Anyone complaining about the gas mileage of the LGT or upset it runs on premium bought the wrong car. Subaru provides you the perfect car, the 2.5i. For those who enjoy driving, and don't mind spending a little extra at the pump (still not near as much as people flush away in SUVs and pickups), and don't want to spend $40k+ on a car, the 3.0 GT is the ticket. But you could buy an IS 250 AWD, which aren't too expensive and gets better gas mileage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
05LGTLtd Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 I think Subaru has really missed a chance to shift the power up the model line with the new STi/WRX. They could have taken the the wrx to the 243hp mark with our 2.5T set up. Taken the STi up a bit with some dependable tweaks, or better yet Direct injection. Then given the spec B the current STi 2.5T set-up... Everybody would be happy, for a short while at least.. All I need now is a hill holder and a center passing light... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyjay1089 Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 But you could buy an IS 250 AWD, which aren't too expensive and gets better gas mileage. Mm maybe if you don't mind being boring. Those things don't perform nearly as well as any performance cars I'd ever consider. The 350 is nice, but once again the fuel economy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_sharp Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 Everybody would be happy, for a short while at least.. No, If that happened, the bitching would migrate to fuel economy. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vimy101 Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 No, If that happened, the bitching would migrate to fuel economy. Sharpy, I don't think you've participated in the gas mileage poll: http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45938&page=7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkaresh Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 I don't think Subaru can justify a Legacy going faster then their flagship WRX/STI. I would be down for one! Correct me if I'm wrong, was the Supra the last 6 cylinder Turbo import? anyhow, a Turbo 6 would be a MONSTER! on top of AWD!!! Companies only hurt themselves when they limit one model to aid another. If they don't produce what buyers want, someone else will. Note that the Tribeca now has a 3.6. Lots of potential... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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