Shell v-power gas?

[Carter]

You didn't RTFM properly. It says "minimum" and 91 is the minimum you will ever come across in Canada and the US. If I remember correctly, it says to use premium fuel with a minimum of 91 AKI. You will have to educate yourself about gasoline.

 

 

What are you talking about?? 87 and 89 AKI is all over the place. Where do you come from where the minimum is 91?

[Carter]

You can also find 85 if you look hard enough.

[AWD_Rules3830]

Ok. I'm listening.

 

Ok this might be a long one.

 

 

 

Gasoline prices in america have been artificially low for decades. In comparison to the rest of the world, america almost puts no tax on gasoline.

 

History 101 – The Origin of High Gasoline Taxes.

 

It should be no surprise that high gasoline taxes started in Europe. In the 1920’s and 1930’s, automobiles were only play things for the rich and high gasoline taxes were seen as an easy way to tax rich people. When cars become cheaper and the middle class could begin to afford an automobile however, gasoline taxes of course didn’t go down and it had a secondary unintentional effect on what they bought; smaller cars with smaller engines and drove less. Therefore consumption was less.

 

The America-land Plan – CAFÉ Laws. (P.S. America, they don’t work)

 

A way to reduce consumption that has always been known to work is raise gasoline taxes, as I mentioned in the last point. However they are politically unpopular as Americans hate paying premiums for anything other than BMW’s. So a politically genius solution that Washington politicians and bureaucrats came up with was the CAFÉ (Corporate Average Fuel Efficiency) laws that were put into place after the 1970’s oil embargo. Essentially these laws regulate what automobile companies can sell by saying their fleet (total cars they sell) has to achieve an average in terms of miles per gallon (MPG). Currently it is 27 mpg and Washington D.C. politicians want to make it 36 by 2020. Ok that’s fine but CAFÉ laws are much easier said that done. This quote by Bob Lutz (chairman of GM) might help put it in perspective.

 

"forcing automakers to sell smaller cars to improve fuel economy is like fighting the nation’s obesity problem by forcing clothing manufacturers to sell garments in only small sizes"

 

Essentially they have to sell small cars that people don’t want or pay penalties to the government. When someone buys a car, just a regular car, the price they spend on it is variable to the cost of running it. If I get a premium car with a V8 obviously the cost of running it (fuel) is more expensive than a Honda civic. This is based on my expectation of power and performance that I’m buying that requires more fuel. This puts automakers between a serious rock and hard place because fuel prices don’t go up with CAFÉ laws.

 

Think of it like this, auto firms have to spend gable-de-gook billions of making a V6 get the power of a V6 but the gas mileage better than that four cylinder (~36 mpg). To satisfy the engine power wants and need of the consumer and their expectation of cost to run it as well as efficiency needs of government mandates. To compound things they have to prevent people from wanting a V8 because gas remains cheaper and all the sudden a larger engine becomes more efficient and less expensive to run because of the gable-de-gook billions you have spent on ways to improve efficiency as well as the fact you haven’t raised taxes on gas to encourage them not to drive such a large vehicle. You see the problem … (I hope).

 

What will end up happening is there will be production quotas on how many large engines you can produce that will be in very high demand because the taxes on gas haven’t been raised to discourage people from driving such large engine equipped cars.

 

Smaller companies are also more heavily affected and somewhat unfairly affected more. Lets take Subaru for starters; they produce a range of fuel efficient cars but they best they can get is 30 mpg highway in their smallest engine vehicles. They produce specialty AWD small cars that cater to a niche market (small group of buyers looking for something specific in a car). A smaller company like Subaru doesn’t have the sales volume like a GM or Toyota has; consequently, they can’t sell a couple 10,000 economy boxes every year and keep their high performance AWD cars that get 25 mpg so they can meet this 36 mpg standard. Unable to meet the new standards, they will likely be forced to pay penalties that Porsche, Ferrari, BMW, and VW (non imported cars) are have to pay to the government for not meeting an average of 27 mpg standard. Is that really fair in the free market?? Most of these automakers sell premium cars to people who probably don’t want a 4 banger in their car. It would destroy their brand image. Think of Porsche having to sell an economy box just so they don’t have to pay huge penalties to the government that is only going to grow. In addition, it gives larger companies an even further advantage over smaller ones, which doesn’t promote competition.

 

To put it simply, CAFÉ laws don’t work because there isn’t the high gasoline cost incentive to get consumers to drive less and smaller cars. CAFÉ laws only affect cars sold THAT YEAR, they don’t affect the total fleet of cars being used. There is no incentive to sell their larger car to get something more efficient because gas still is relatively cheap. They actually end up consuming about the same amount of fuel because the cost of running the car, again, hasn’t risen thus they live farther and farther form their workplace and drive more because of it. In the long run, because of the added expense to automakers to redevelop products to mean the new standard, it will actually cost us MORE money and will not curve consumption as much as a gas tax will.

 

The Beauty of Gasoline Taxes – Consumer Choice over Government Control.

 

So we raise the price of a gallon of gas to a little under 5 dollars lets say. I haven’t told the automakers what they can and cannot make, but instead I’m leading the free market adapt to the conditions I set. A person can drive a large car that guzzles gas if they want to; they just have to pay the fuel prices for it. Most people will choose to drive a smaller more European sized car that gets much better gas mileage than current American sized car; but they still have the choice.

 

- More money for better roads and public transit.

 

With the 2 dollar tax levied on gasoline, we will have the money to build better roads that last twice as long that are smoother and don’t crack during the winter … and of course, less pot holes and fixing the ones we have properly.

 

We will have the money to improve efficient public transit and build a nation-wide system of European style high speed trains that travel up to 200 mph quietly and efficiently. Smaller cities could afford better transit systems like light rail systems that currently only large cities and afford to have.

 

- Less Money for Big Oil

 

Won’t higher taxes mean more money for large oil companies? No.

 

If you were to go to Europe, Germany or the U.K. and you were to take all their taxes off their gas and take all the taxes off of our gas and compared the two, our gas would be more expensive because demand is greater here. (wholesale price). This means less money for big oil and more money where gas revenues should be going, the transit system. They also consume less oil so more money can go into other consumer goods.

 

Gasoline taxes would help the American auto industry – European cars they already make could easily be imported

 

Ford and GM (GM sells under the Opel and Vauxhall brand in Europe) are actually doing quite well in the European market. Both have seen substantial sales increases (especially Ford) over the past few years with an amazing line of very good products.

 

- With Higher Gasoline Taxes instead of government CAFÉ laws, it would cost companies less money to bring European products and sell them here -

 

All Ford and GM would have to do is retool American factories to produce European-type cars and engines

 

“Ok, so they should just sell those cars here anyway? Then I don’t have to pay your high gas taxes.”

 

It’s not quite that simple. In Europe, the Ford Focus is the same size car as it is here but the similarities end there. Its much more expensive costing in the upper 20,000 (American dollars) and it is the heart of the market (the car that sells the most). You simple can’t sell a compact here for that price unless it has a certain novelty to it (E.G. Mini Cooper). Ford has many cars included the Ford Mondeo (regarded as the best car Ford has ever built) that they cannot sell here because they are not compatible with our market because fuel cost is lower and current size overlap.

 

“Well we can’t just state charging 5 dollars a gallon tomorrow …”

 

Obviously there would have to be a gradual phase in of the gas tax over the course of 5 to 10 years to make sure that larger less efficient cars could gradually be phased out and replaced by more fuel efficient vehicles.

 

Essentially what we are doing is speeding up the market change over to more fuel efficient cars. Gas prices will eventually hit 5 dollars, but adding a tax now to increase the market change over will mean fewer profits for oil companies and more money for consumers and public transportation. You will pay more, but more will come back to you.

 

“What about people that directly depend on gasoline/diesel?”

 

There would have to be tax credits for people like truck drivers, farmers and traveling salesmen who use depend of fuel and don’t have much of an alternative. Food delivery businesses (like a pizza hut) could receive tax breaks to increase the pay of their delivery workers to counter act the high fuel cost.

 

 

[Guest Gitster]

Im not reading all that

[JOE_1985]

oh about citco, thats what my job has, remember that insane gasmilage thread where i got 420 highway.........that was on 3/4ths a tank of citgo and 1/4 of some local brand my dad had put in

 

oh btw i can get 100 octane at the sunoco across town:cool:

[Vimy101]

Ok this might be a long one. <snip>

 

Gas taxes are the responsible way to go. It is ironic that CAFE standards have actually increased US dependence on foreign oil.

[AWD_Rules3830]

Gas taxes are the responsible way to go. It is ironic that CAFE standards have actually increased US dependence on foreign oil.

 

it's convincing americans that that is what needs to be done that is difficult.

[Vimy101]

it's convincing americans that that is what needs to be done that is difficult.

 

"Taxes" is a dirty word in the US. The GOP ran campaign ads against Kerry based on Kerry's proposal for a 50 cent gas tax.

 

A big problem in the US is a failure to appreciate the order of magnitude difference between limited personal experience and what it takes to run a country of 300 million.

[rao]

A big problem in the US is a failure to appreciate the order of magnitude difference between limited personal experience and what it takes to run a country of 300 million.

 

Thank goodness that we have you and you understand everyting soooo completely

 

 

[Vimy101]

Thank goodness that we have you and you understand everyting soooo completely

 

 

 

Orders of magnitude are interesting. In the physical universe, various phenomena such as gravity for instance have different effects depending upon the magnitude. An ant is barely affected by gravity but the foundations of mountains become plastic from it. The same principle applies to human organization. What might work on a tribal level doesn't necessarily work on a nation state level yet alone global magnitude.

 

Looking forward to your banal attempts at sarcasm.

[rao]

banal - I'll have to look that one up

 

At least you seem to be starting to understand gravity, although you still don't hvae it right

[Vimy101]

banal - I'll have to look that one up

 

At least you seem to be starting to understand gravity, although you still don't hvae it right

 

Weak force, strong force, electromagnetism and gravity.

 

Try again.

[CTATV]

i didnt see this as i went through the post so i thought it let you know what the octane in fuel works or why its there. Oh this is my first post im on the hunt for a new car and ive decided a 2005 LGT limited sedan is what I want (Preferably in grey with black leather interior). Anyhow... higher octane makes fuel harder to combust under pressure. The reason for running anything above 87 is in engines running higher compression in their cylinders. For example, my old car a 99 Chrysler LHS had a 3.5liter High Output V6, basically had higher compression so i had to run mid grade (89) in it. The turbo Subies are running higher compression so they have to run higher octane. I dont know if you all know how a diesel engine works but it has no spark plugs, it uses compression to ignite the fuel. If you have a car with higher compression and you put lower octane in it you'll get pinging as the fuel is being ignited from the compression before the spark plug ignites it. If your running regular gas in your engine your not getting a rough running engine or pinging from your engine you dont need to run any higher octane and you arent doing any damage to your gasoline. people try to tell me higher octane runs hotter but in truth if you arent running higher compression and you run premium fuel your actually getting a less efficient burn.

[1-3-2-4]

speaking of fuel I've seen many of older owners with a wrx turbo always filling the car up with 87

[Vimy101]

i didnt see this as i went through the post so i thought it let you know what the octane in fuel works or why its there. Oh this is my first post im on the hunt for a new car and ive decided a 2005 LGT limited sedan is what I want (Preferably in grey with black leather interior). Anyhow... higher octane makes fuel harder to combust under pressure. The reason for running anything above 87 is in engines running higher compression in their cylinders. For example, my old car a 99 Chrysler LHS had a 3.5liter High Output V6, basically had higher compression so i had to run mid grade (89) in it. The turbo Subies are running higher compression so they have to run higher octane. I dont know if you all know how a diesel engine works but it has no spark plugs, it uses compression to ignite the fuel. If you have a car with higher compression and you put lower octane in it you'll get pinging as the fuel is being ignited from the compression before the spark plug ignites it. If your running regular gas in your engine your not getting a rough running engine or pinging from your engine you dont need to run any higher octane and you arent doing any damage to your gasoline. people try to tell me higher octane runs hotter but in truth if you arent running higher compression and you run premium fuel your actually getting a less efficient burn.

 

Less efficient burn but more complete power stroke.

 

The knock sensor will retard timing once knock is detected to reduce knock (knock wood).

[Bear]

I use regular..when it gets colder out..around 50 degree's, my car feels like it has more of a pull.

[heh2k]

There's some serious misinformation on this thread. Trucks do not hook right up to the pipeline - it's for bulk, scheduled deliveries of fuel to the terminal. Yes, there is some slop in the pipeline between products. Incompatible fuel mixes go into the slop tank. A little diesel is ok in gasoline, since gas is spark fired. No gasoline is allowed in diesel, since it would lower the ignition temp. That lower octane slop goes in the regular 87 octane tank, so the regular you get may be slightly higher than 87. If you get caught selling an octane below what it should be, you're in trouble. 89 is a mix of regular (87 octane) and premium (91 or 93). There are no 89 tanks at fuel terminals. Newer gas stations don't have 89 octane tanks in the ground, either (it's blended at the "pump", where you select your grade of gas).

 

Base gasoline is a commodity, but there are several types of base gas. There's conventional (available with different vapor points, depending on if it's summer or winter) and there's reformulated, which as someone mentioned earlier, which also has a winter and summer version. Ethanol is required as a oxygenate, except in areas where conventional gas can be sold. Ethanol allows the use of a lower octane base, since ethanol raises octane. It's almost always used at 10%.

 

Ethanol cannot be sent thru pipelines, since it absorbs and mixes with everything (water, rust, other fuels). It must be delivered by trucks, which is why it cannot be a main use fuel. That's just one of the many reasons ethanol will never work in this country (unless maybe oil hits hundreds of dollars per barrel). Yes, ethanol does reduce milage. I lost ~2.5 mpg thanks to it. It has less energy per volume (and mass) than gasoline.

 

As gas is loading unto a tanker truck (for delivery to a gas station), the branded additive is injected. Those are proprietary additives. Shell really does inject a lot more volume than most. Their additive might be more dilute than others, but i suspect not, since it does seem to actually clean engines. Generic additive is used for non-branded mom & pop gas stations (altho sometimes "generic" is really a branded additive, just injected at a lower rate).

 

(I work in the industry and have been to fuel terminals all over the country, if anyone's curious how i know this stuff.)

[Vimy101]

^ Excellent input, heh2k. Thanks.

 

Ethanol should only be used for drinking.

[AbsolutShyam]

Here is a question: Does it really make a difference if you get the same gas from the same gas station only? A friend of mine had told me a long time back, that he only got gas from this one BP station, and that was all his truck had ever had. He didn't even go to a different BP, it was the same station every single time.

 

Since I have a Chevron very close to my house, I have been only filling up there, ever since I got my car. Does this really matter? How bad is switching around fuel in the car, say between Chevron and Shell?

[Vimy101]

^ I wouldn't worry about it.

[spacejunkiehsv]

I don't know if the local competitors' gas is bad or what, but my turbo cars (old WRX and now the Legacy GT) run better on Shell 93. I could never notice a difference in my 04 GTO though. I ran 93 octane in all three cars.

 

I buy shell now, but it is usually $.05-.10 higher than the gas stations next door, which are Chevron and crappy Raceway. Chevron is acceptable to me, but I prefer Shell. Cheap gas like at Raceway or other no name places will give me some stutter sometimes at part throttle.

[1-3-2-4]

I think they have raceway in NJ or is it called Speedway gas?

[oppamen]

I have 08 I limited Legacy and it saids on the manuel I can put 87 octane in my car. I currently have around 18,000 miles and I drive about 70% highway and 30% local. For the first 17,000 miles Ive used Shell V-power (93 octane) and got around 27 mpg 450 miles out of full tank. After 17,000 miles I tried using regular 87 octane from shell and ive been getting 25.5 mpg 390 miles out of the tank with the same driving pattern.

 

Im just throwing out the numbers ive seen from using v-power to regular gas from shell station. I might change back to V-power if I dont feel any power loss or anything bad happening to the engine.

[ilh]

Were these the same time of year? Formulations change, specifically for the winter months, and also your car will perform differently in different temperatures.

[oppamen]

Were these the same time of year? Formulations change, specifically for the winter months, and also your car will perform differently in different temperatures.

 

No it wasnt same time of the year but Ive tested this when there werent drastic temperature change.