Subie Newbie - AWD, F/R Weight Ratio, Turbo...

[issai]

I've been a BMW owner for most of my short "high-speed" career, and definitely appreciate the balance of the 50/50 front/rear weight ratio on those German cars. Unfortunately, the high cost of ownership / not being find the perfect "compromise" BMW has sent me searching elsewhere for options to accommodate my height, my need for *some* speed and cornering, and my need to meld my daily driver + performance car into one. And be somewhat reliable. And keep costs down.

 

I just can't believe the Legacy isn't more popular than it currently is, especially at its price point.

 

Consumer Reports says that the Legacy has a 57/43 front/rear weight ratio, which is what, say, the Camry's weight ratio would be (I am also a Camry owner... my first car...).

 

I'm new to the world of AWD, but I'm interested if and how the Legacy 2.5i's and GT's AWD interacts with the weight ratio difference, especially when cornering. Would the AWD tend to transfer more power to the rear as the front bows into and away from a corner?

 

Also, I remember reading somewhere (forgot the source), and I appreciate being corrected, that the AWD power distribution between front and rear is oh-so-slightly different between the 2.5i and GT. Something about how the AWD in the 2.5i was more front-biased than the GT.

I'm also new to the world of turbos. Short of going for a test-drive (and I plan to do so in the next few days), how's the GT's turbo boost / lag effect compared to NA engines? Will it be very noticeable-- would it send tires chirping as I downshift from 3rd to 2nd, readying for a corner?

 

All advice and suggestions are appreciated!

[zmarko]

how's the GT's turbo boost / lag effect compared to NA engines? Will it be very noticeable-- would it send tires chirping as I downshift from 3rd to 2nd, readying for a corner?

 

It will be noticable. Not necessarily in the situation you give, but from an acceleration perspective, it's VERY noticable.

 

Your best bet on the handling issue is to test drive one, as everyone's views are different.

 

Welcome to the site!

[AWDpower]

I believe the Legacy has a much better f/r weight distribution then a FWD car, like a Camry. A stock Legacy's handling is pretty neutral. Mild understeer on corner entry, but the nose will tuck in with a lift of the throttle or slight trail braking. Once rotated, you can stand on the throttle and the car will drift out of the corner. Lot's of fun, and very easy to drive.

 

I don't think many people put turbo lag into perspective. Turbo cars make a lot more low end torque then naturally aspirated engines of similar output. If you are in the wrong gear in a turbo car, and floor it, you will get a bit of lag, followed by a rush of torque when the turbo spools up. With an N/A car in the same scenario, you get- nothing. The car just bogs until the rpm's get up into the powerband. The cure is- put it into the right gear, and you won't have to worry about it. Especially on the LGT. The realatively large engine and small turbo mean plenty of power as soon as you step on the gas. With nicely spaced ratios in the tranny, it's hard to be in the wrong gear. Car and Driver magazine did a comparo test with the LGT when it came out. I still can't believe what the idiot wrote about the LGT and it's "lag." He complained that he didn't like the turbo lag, when trying to drive at 800rpms- about idle speed- in fifth gear! I couldn't even do that on purpose.

 

The drive trains and torque split are different on the manual transmission cars (50/50), 2.5i with the 4spd auto (primarily FWD?), and the LGT 5spd auto(40/60). I think the 6 speed Spec B is different too, with the STi tranny (33/66? Maybe adjustable like the STi?)

 

Torque split does vary when driving. When accelerating from a stop or charging out of a corner, torque is sent to the rear, for example. Generally, it follows the shift in weight distribution and available traction.

[Garandman]

I'm new to the world of AWD, but I'm interested if and how the Legacy 2.5i's and GT's AWD interacts with the weight ratio difference, especially when cornering. Would the AWD tend to transfer more power to the rear as the front bows into and away from a corner?

 

Also, I remember reading somewhere (forgot the source), and I appreciate being corrected, that the AWD power distribution between front and rear is oh-so-slightly different between the 2.5i and GT. Something about how the AWD in the 2.5i was more front-biased than the GT.

 

I'm also new to the world of turbos. Short of going for a test-drive (and I plan to do so in the next few days), how's the GT's turbo boost / lag effect compared to NA engines? Will it be very noticeable-- would it send tires chirping as I downshift from 3rd to 2nd, readying for a corner?

 

All advice and suggestions are appreciated!

 

An excellent reference website - http://www.cars101.com/

 

The H6 and turbo 25 models have the VTD - Variable Torque Distribution - drive system. It's rearward balanced (55% rear under normal circumstances.) which helps make the steering more neutral.

 

I posted the H6 whp/torque plot on another website and if you're interested I can PM you the link. The H6 has a very flat torque curve but is 5EAT only in the US. The H4's are pretty slow, so the turbo 2.5 is your choice.

[leggtnut]

I have been driving subarus for years and my 04 baja turbo was my first turbo and AWD car. I just couldn't believe how well it tracked all the twists and turns of the roads I live on. BTW, the road I live on I see a lot of exhatics (sp) and STI's, evo's, etc.. on it and they are salivating over it. I had the 4EAT w/ sportshift and VTD (veriable torque distribution) and every time I went though a turn and hit the gas in the apex it would just bring the truck thoug it and was amazed every time. After I hit about 20k on the clock, I notced about a 10% increese in power after the full breakin was done.

 

Now that I have my LGT, 5EAT w/ Sportshift (or tiptronic for you bmw owners) I get the shifting buttons on the steringwheel and of corse VTD again. Everything is so much more solid though the turns. I have driven the VW and BMW tiptronic cars in the past and they left A LOT to be desired when driving. the VW systems seemd not to shift for about 2seconds between shifts no mater what you did. And the BMW just really felt disconnected and the shifts didn't feel natural. But the Subaru sportshift system is so easy, natural, and does leave some of the connection to the driver that I was looking for. I know that it doesn't feel the same as a 5MT, but after owning a few and moving close to San Francisco and driving up there once in a while, I began to hate it. Also they have taken out the hill holder clutch out of the line up so I won't by a 5mt till they bring it back. I can also keep up with all my WRX buddies when we go out driving just as well, so I love my 5eat.

 

So the only way you will be able to get a tast for what a subaru is, you need to go and test drive. You won't be able to get it to the limits, unless you drive a used lgt that has been broken already, but most of thet new ones should be under 100 miles if not under 50.

[RacingFish]

i dont think to many cars have 50/50 weight distribution nowdays. my porsche did. and that was one of the best handling cars i have every owned stock. I work at a dealership and we have highline used cars (bmw, mercedes, jag haha) and to tell you the truth my lgt will take any of those. if your talking about reliability... hey its a subaru my techs here get mad because theres hardly any warranty work to be done.

[forestir]

Aside from front/rear weight distr, don't forget about the lower center of gravity. The Subaru definitely feels more agile and balanced than Camry/Accord. Not sure what all the numbers say, but you can feel it.

 

Sometimes you've gotta take numbers with a grain of salt. Think about one of the most acclaimed "best handling" cars today, the Mitsu EVO series... that's based on pretty blah FWD platform, but excellent tuning makes it what it is... So, just goes to show you can't just look at numbers.

 

Do tell us what you think though, after your test drive. Overseas magazine tests rave about the Legacy. USA mags tend to be a bit more blah about it--I wonder if that's because we get dumbed down sway bars and shocks.

[issai]

Another question, following AWDPower's reply: I also like the tall gears on the BMW's. I love how I can pass in 4th gear @ 80 mph (or 3rd even, depending on the car) on Southern CA freeways.

 

How tall are the GT's gears? What's the real-world redline for GT?

[issai]

One of BMW's biggest Achilles heels in their lower-end cars is their automatic tranny. It does suck. The BMW "Sportshift" is a big no-no. I've seen burned out trannies after just 90K miles. Don't even get me started with the MINI's.

 

I'm all about the MT, so I should be with matching power with speed.

 

Now that I have my LGT, 5EAT w/ Sportshift (or tiptronic for you bmw owners) I get the shifting buttons on the steringwheel and of corse VTD again. Everything is so much more solid though the turns. I have driven the VW and BMW tiptronic cars in the past and they left A LOT to be desired when driving. the VW systems seemd not to shift for about 2seconds between shifts no mater what you did. And the BMW just really felt disconnected and the shifts didn't feel natural. But the Subaru sportshift system is so easy, natural, and does leave some of the connection to the driver that I was looking for. I know that it doesn't feel the same as a 5MT, but after owning a few and moving close to San Francisco and driving up there once in a while, I began to hate it. Also they have taken out the hill holder clutch out of the line up so I won't by a 5mt till they bring it back. I can also keep up with all my WRX buddies when we go out driving just as well, so I love my 5eat.

[issai]

And you're right. CR does report 60/40 FR weight ratio for the Lancer / EVO. Good point.

 

Sometimes you've gotta take numbers with a grain of salt. Think about one of the most acclaimed "best handling" cars today, the Mitsu EVO series... that's based on pretty blah FWD platform, but excellent tuning makes it what it is... So, just goes to show you can't just look at numbers.

[issai]

That's what I was looking for! Thanks!

 

Sucks about CAFE compliance and how the US market didn't end up with H6's w/ MT . I've read nothing but raves about that H6...

 

Please do PM me your torque plot URL. Does it have comparo's w/ the turbo 25?

 

An excellent reference website - http://www.cars101.com/

 

The H6 and turbo 25 models have the VTD - Variable Torque Distribution - drive system. It's rearward balanced (55% rear under normal circumstances.) which helps make the steering more neutral.

 

I posted the H6 whp/torque plot on another website and if you're interested I can PM you the link. The H6 has a very flat torque curve but is 5EAT only in the US. The H4's are pretty slow, so the turbo 2.5 is your choice.

[leggtnut]

That's what I was looking for! Thanks!

 

Sucks about CAFE compliance and how the US market didn't end up with H6's w/ MT . I've read nothing but raves about that H6...

 

Please do PM me your torque plot URL. Does it have comparo's w/ the turbo 25?

 

yes, that H6 has so much more potential than SOA gives it. They asume that only the fat american ritch bastards that don't care about performance will want it. I almost bought the outback sedan h6 when I was getting my LGT. But I found that it only has beige interior and I fell in love with the black interior.

[leggtnut]

One of BMW's biggest heels in their lower-end cars is their automatic tranny. It does suck. The BMW "Sportshift" is a big no-no. I've seen burned out trannies after just 90K miles. Don't even get me started with the MINI's.

 

I'm all about the MT, so I should be with matching power with speed.

 

 

What I drove was either a 2000 or 2001, don't remember, M5 or 525, I don't exactly remember, but he had one of each in 2000 and 2001. My uncle bought it and let me drive it. I had driven some of the legacy GT's as rental cars from Carter subaru in seattle at the time with the 4EAT sportshift trans, and they had better feelings than that of the bmw. But the bmw did had the 2.5 na subue beat hands down in power. Now with my 06 LGT, I would have to try it again.

[issai]

It had to be a 525. Auto + heavy car = big ol' no-no for hard driving-- although, more than sufficient for the typical cruise, though.

[LIZARD]

Another question, following AWDPower's reply: I also like the tall gears on the BMW's. I love how I can pass in 4th gear @ 80 mph (or 3rd even, depending on the car) on Southern CA freeways.

 

How tall are the GT's gears? What's the real-world redline for GT?

 

Leave it in 5th and step on it, at 80mph you'll be doing 1## in a couple secs.( on a closed course naturally:icon_wink ) Redline I believe is 6500 although some with stageII+ pro-tunes have 7,200+ redlines from what I've heard.

 

lizard.

[issai]

Hrmm... what are the top, real-world speeds for each gear, in a stock GT?

 

Not that I plan on edging the needle toward the red on public roads, oh no .

 

All this makes me wonder how trackable a stock GT would be at, say, Infineon Raceway in an instructor-led CCA course. Lots of curves and turns means can't shift too often, and stayin' in gear more often.

[NSFW]

I've been meaning to take note of the redline speeds for each gear, but the only one I know off the top of my head is 2nd gear, which redlines at (or maybe just a hair under) 60mph.

 

5th gear & 3000rpm is about 70, so the redline would be over 140 - but if I remember correctly there's an electronic speed limiter at 136.

 

Not sure about the other gears.

[itsme]

Stage 1 and up will give you a 7200 rpm redline. For very little money you can have improved handling($300 F&R swaybars and $170 to $300 for springs) and power(AP @ $700 new and soon V.1 for I think in the $400 to $500 range).

Max speed per gear from manual

5mt

N/A

1st=30mph

2nd=50 mph

3rd=71

Turbo

1st = 32mph

2nd = 54 mph

3rd = 80 mph

 

If you are near LA we have alot of meets. So check the So Cali thread and check us out. You can see the cars and different mods to get a realworld ideal of what these cars really can be.

[issai]

I know this is an old thread, but thanks to all who've contributed before, it helps for me to refer back to it as I find all of your responses valuable. Would it assuage all your egos to know that I'm now giving the Legacy GT a hard look once again, after shooting it down with a 98 M3 sedan that I just bought in December?

 

Although I admit the M3 was downright fun (I just can't help but smile on portions of my daily commute route, where I do about 30 seconds' worth of completely balanced throttle steering) and even somewhat practical, its age and the $$$ for upkeep is starting to spook me. The straw that broke the camel's back was hearing the words-- "engine rebuild."

 

itsme's, your post couldn't have been more appropriate. Thanks for posting those numbers-- them gears are definitely tall enough for me. It effectively seals the deal for me to proceed with my Legacy purchase (provided the particular example I'm looking at mechanically and financially checks out). When I get around to finally having it, I'll definitely have to meet you guys up.

[f1anatic]

The car is geared to reach 62 mph in 2nd gear. It all depends how ambitious you are with sticking it in the red line. Definitely easier with an AP which raises your red line.

 

The weight distribution is 57%-43% (Motor Trend) but the power distribution can range from 50-50 (manual) to 45-55 (auto) depending on the gearbox. For the rest...ask these folks...but one thing you will miss on this car is a tall 6th gear (unless you go for a 07 Spec B). From about 50mph to infinity, I never downshift from 5th to overtake on the highway during normal traffic. You do 50 mph in 5th and rev 2000 rpm, 60 mph @ 2500 rpm and 70 mph @ 3000 rpm (manual car).

[Underdog]

The VTD is only on the 5EAT I believe. The 5mt has a fixed split 50:50 with an open front diff and rear lsd.

[issai]

Wow, 62 mph in 2nd gear @ the redline? Wow. I guess 3rd can hit an eyelash under 100, then.

 

IMO, there's not much use for 6th gear other than for fuel effiiciency, or on track or the Autobahn. It's missing in my current daily driver (but I don't miss it) there's plenty of power to go from 60 to 80 in just a couple of seconds in 5th.

 

Which makes sense-- in 6th gear in a car I previously had, the car actually felt slightly bogged down.

 

Though I do wonder how how much throttle steer a Legacy GT would allow.

[NSFW]

My previous car was a 325iX. On wet roads, I could get it to oversteer a bit with the throttle. With my LGT, the front inside wheel generally spins instead. I have gotten it to throttle oversteer just a little, but IMO it would be a more fun car if it had a more rear-biased torque split like my BMW (35/65 or 37/63 depending who you ask).

 

There is a 35/65 center diff available for the Legacy from Cusco, but it's my understanding that it loses the viscous coupler. If you don't drive slippery surfaces, that might be a reasonable tradeoff (but it's also not cheap, and not cheap to install).

 

The LGT is a fun car though, don't get me wrong. It's way quicker than my iX, and has loads of potential, and will cost far less to reach that potential. And some swaybar changes might be enough to get it to corner more like my iX. It's hard for me to say for sure, right now, how much of the difference in corner handling was due to the swaybar balance and how much was due to the torque spit. After some suspension upgrades I'll know.

[issai]

Aaahhh-- having most of the 15-mph-limit clover leaf interchange all to myself, all 10 seconds of it, this morning was like a wet dream come true~~... until the G35C brick wall at the end of it, in front of me, ended such sinful pleasures.

 

I'm honed in on one particular 05 Legacy GT 5MT sedan up for sale that I hopefully can acquire by the end of this month. And one of the first things I'll do, after having a local "PPI" (first "P" stands for "post" in this case), is to find a nice, open stretch of tarmac and have my own little car control clinic to see how I need to adapt to the LGT's handling characteristics.