So who wrote to C&D for the month of May?

[S4]

First, 0.5 sec in the slalom IS a big difference.

I didn't read the article to verify that the units are correct, but if it is indeed MPH and not seconds, that is not that big of a difference. Maybe 1-2 tenths of a second, if that?

[IwannaSportSedan]

If Subaru keeps up the hard work, they may come up with a vehical as nice as the Lincoln Zephyr.

 

I did run into one of those on the highway one evening and he was more than willing to show me what it could do with all 221HP. I could do nothing but watch him become a spec on the horizon. It was like someone hit warp speed!

 

Yah. Real high mark there. I hope the horizon was the one in your rear-view mirror, and that you were the one at warp speed.

 

Who would buy a fancy pants Fusion with a lincoln badge? They canned the LS for THAT?

 

the Milan looks nicer, anyway, and they are all FWD automatic bland-mobiles. If the interior materials are anything like my father's 05 Mustang, they haven't got anything besides maybe a few ticks on the option list over the Legacy GT.

[mkaresh]

I've always enjoyed comparison tests, but people put a bit much stock in them. Rarely will those performing the comparisons share your priorities and weights.

 

Full editorial on this topic here, with a focus on C&D: www.truedelta.com/pieces/comparison_tests.php

 

As for the Zephyr vs. Milan, the two actually feel very different.

 

My review of the Zephyr:

www.epinions.com/content_208166555268

 

I'd much rather have an LGT than either.

[S4]

I hope the horizon was the one in your rear-view mirror, and that you were the one at warp speed.

[mkaresh]

Um, yeah, about 1000 mi in my friends car and about 8 test drives. Again, if you don't know how to drive it, it is slow. You MUST rev the engine to near redline to access the power. And is it ever sweet. The great thing is that you have this huge plateau of power with this engine - you have a very fine tuning with the throttle, which is extremely valuable in low and medium speed corners (95 % of the corners driven on public roads).

 

You can drive this car to the limit with precise control. Why do you care about power? There is clearly sufficient power on tap, although it's no 350Z. But who cares? I'll never understand this. So many people who think they love to drive would, for example, choose a late 60's mustang/camaro/whatever with the big ass motor over an underpowered but fine handling british sports car. What is wrong with these people? Drag racing is fun for less than 10 seconds, but a twisty road is fun forever! Not to mention how pathetic those muscle cars are when you need to turn the steering wheel.

 

The RX-8 is an absolute dream to drive - creamy smooth and absolutely nailed to the road. The car communicates exceptionally well with the driver, and although its a light car, it feels very clean and firm on the road.

 

The car compares favorably to a 911 in its packaging and handling, better than any front engined car ever has. I would hazard to say that the RX-8 is a better handling car than the 330 coupe. And it's not about power.

 

If you are looking at a car for total power output, it explains why you have no appreciation for truly great sports cars - and we're lucky enough to have several to choose from.

 

Did I mention that a miata test-drive should be an eye-opening experience? if it isn't, then you have a lot to learn about driving, honestly.

 

I agree 100%. The RX-8 is a car for people who truly appreciate handling. I thought about buying one last summer, had my father buy one instead. Borrowed it for a couple weeks last summer, for a round trip between VA and MI. Hit the best roads in WV and OH.

 

Only one other car compares for driving fast along an unfamiliar challenging road, the current 3-Series. The the Mazda has it beat in many ways; there's just no substitute for the low driving position of a true sports car.

 

The kicker: you can buy a nearly new RX-8 for around $20,000. There's hardly any demand for the car, making it a bargain for those who can appreciate it.

 

I wrote up the experience in detail here: http://www.epinions.com/content_191917493892

 

If I was buying a midsize wagon, though, it'd be LGT over the Mazda6 all the way.

[konrad]

what do you guys expect its HONDA & DRIVER magazine after all.

 

TSX must be on the top its European Honda Accord

[mkaresh]

The fuel economy is awful, the styling isn't stellar, and most Americans put a much higher priority on low-end torque than handling.

 

I'm also not sure how many people have driven the car on a curvy road.

[tantal]

But you gotta ask, why is no one buying the one? Getting one for 20K is a bargain, but I refuse to believe the whole "only real drivers buy them, and therefore most American drivers arent" and that's why it isnt selling argument.

 

I don't doubt that it is a sweet handling car, but as previously mentioned they totally cheaped out on the power. People expect that power to go along with handling. IT has less power then some Hyundais! Is that indicative of a sports car? Yes there are cars like the Miata, but you dont expect 250+ HP out of that one.

 

In addition, it just isnt a "gotta have" in looks or ability like the rx-7 was.

 

Well, two reasons - not many miles to the gallon, and not many miles to the quart (of oil)

 

For me, that's it. That and the fact that I'd like to get another two years out of my 98 A4. sigh.

[karlxmas]

Im gonna try and chime in on this the best I can. First off, the RX8 is a cellar dweller in its class. The true enthusiast who are gonna want a sports car are gonna be disgusted by the lack of power in an RX8. Then there is the fact that if you are a novice to track racing or autocross, the RX8 will be exceptionally hard for one to get good times out. You have to be in the right gear and when you are you have to beable to keep that tail planted properly. Not such an easy task for the average driver. That leaves the RX8s potential pretty much wasted. Now that leaves us with the 330 BMW, which dont get me wrong, is a very nice car, but it is not a sports car, and the people who own them probably will never use it as anything more than a statis symbol. Tack on the very high price and a real enthusiast to automobiles will probably pass it up. There are a hell of a lot more fun rides that handle better than a 330 for around the same cost. All the comments about handling are awefully funny because I seriously doubt you are pushing your commuter BMWs and RX8s to there handling limits. As a previous Supra owner I can attest to the fact that cars like these are not forgiving. You get that tail loose at 80 plus and your average joe is in trouble. You also have to factor in tire wear and cost and not to mention how much noticable of a difference in handling is there without actual track times to back it up. If you werent racing someone in the Subbie would you not have a huge smile on your face as you 4 wheel drift an exit turn? I guess what I am saying is when it comes to racing the subbie it will win the straight line race. It will probably win on the track also due to the fact that its low end punch and acceleration will make up for its minor inadequacy in handling. Then there is the fact that it is extremely forgiving, and by this I mean it doesnt take a pro to make this car go fast and go fast safely. The AWD system keeps you in control.

 

PS everyone who is into modding cars, mods suspensions also. The 330 and RX8 are no exception to suspension mod bug.

[PGT]

Please?

http://www.bikeforest.com/CAD/faq/enter_key.jpg

 

http://www.bikeforest.com/CAD/faq/enter_key.jpg

 

http://www.bikeforest.com/CAD/faq/enter_key.jpg

 

http://www.bikeforest.com/CAD/faq/enter_key.jpg

[mkaresh]

I suspect that many of the people who comment on the RX-8 have never actually driven one but simply repeat what they've heard.

 

As for getting the tail loose at 80:

 

1. Stability control

 

2. Your average joe has the sense not to take turns at 80 on public roads

 

One advantage of the RX-8 is that the handling feels great well short of the limit. Nothing with a sedan's driving position can compare. Though the new 3 comes closest. I'm quite puzzled by your opinion that other cars out-handle the 3.

 

As for power, go back a few decades and the handling vs. power debate used to separate imported sports car buyers from domestic muscle car buyers. The import guys used to claim that power was far less important than agility, and that focusing on power was a sign of a low IQ incapable of understanding the finer things in life.

 

Yet these days import car enthusiasts focus at least as much on power as your typical Mustang buyer. Import car people used to argue that American cars had senselessly large engines. Yet these days imported cars have engines at least as large as their domestic counterparts.

 

Was Detroit right all along?

[flyboy333]

Shouldn't this thread be retitled [RX-8 vs. LGT: smackdown!] ?

[BDII]

Thats where Tide lives.

[BDII]

Im gonna try and chime in on this the best I can. First off, the RX8 is a cellar dweller in its class. The true enthusiast who are gonna want a sports car are gonna be disgusted by the lack of power in an RX8. Then there is the fact that if you are a novice to track racing or autocross, the RX8 will be exceptionally hard for one to get good times out. You have to be in the right gear and when you are you have to beable to keep that tail planted properly. Not such an easy task for the average driver. That leaves the RX8s potential pretty much wasted. Now that leaves us with the 330 BMW, which dont get me wrong, is a very nice car, but it is not a sports car, and the people who own them probably will never use it as anything more than a statis symbol. Tack on the very high price and a real enthusiast to automobiles will probably pass it up. There are a hell of a lot more fun rides that handle better than a 330 for around the same cost. All the comments about handling are awefully funny because I seriously doubt you are pushing your commuter BMWs and RX8s to there handling limits. As a previous Supra owner I can attest to the fact that cars like these are not forgiving. You get that tail loose at 80 plus and your average joe is in trouble. You also have to factor in tire wear and cost and not to mention how much noticable of a difference in handling is there without actual track times to back it up. If you werent racing someone in the Subbie would you not have a huge smile on your face as you 4 wheel drift an exit turn? I guess what I am saying is when it comes to racing the subbie it will win the straight line race. It will probably win on the track also due to the fact that its low end punch and acceleration will make up for its minor inadequacy in handling. Then there is the fact that it is extremely forgiving, and by this I mean it doesnt take a pro to make this car go fast and go fast safely. The AWD system keeps you in control.

 

PS everyone who is into modding cars, mods suspensions also. The 330 and RX8 are no exception to suspension mod bug.

 

Iwannasportssedan AE?

[matt]

I'm suprised at the number of folks here who would/did cross-shop the RX8 and LGT closely enough that giving the RX8 a torquier, less peaky engine would make the difference to them. I've never driven an RX8, but from everything I've read I think I'd really enjoy it. I'd enjoy it for almost entirely different reasons than what I bought my LGT for though; there's pretty much no overlap for me.

 

Are all your needs out of a car really so general or vague that RWD vs AWD and coupe vs sedan or wagon (albiet a much more practical than average coupe with those rear mini-doors) doesn't make a bigger difference than a peaky engine vs a torquier one?

 

I bought an LGT for ski trips. It's my only car so of course it has to be good for driving around town and other road trips, but my last car was good for those too and ski trips are the sole reason I replaced it. Obviously the RX8 wouldn't be a good car for that.

 

Similarly, if I had $20k+ to spend on a second car that was mainly for driving enjoyment, an RX8 would definately be on the list to test drive. Even if I didn't own one already an LGT would not be, nor for that matter would any other sedan or wagon that comes to mind.

[GTTuner]

I admit I did write a letter blasting them out for not having the LGT in there and Having TWO Honda products. It was similar to the one they published.

 

The Mazda Speed is not even in the same class as the compared vehicles. It's a Limited production vehicle (I think).

 

The Road and Track article was clearly right on the money.

[tantal]

I can only speak for myself, but I didn't cross shop the two. In my mind, the question is do you want a sporty wagon or a sporty four-seater? There are VERY few choices for the former, and a good number of the latter. IMO, the LGT does not hold up well against the competition in the sporty four seater market, however it is a clear best choice in the sporty wagon market.

 

There is just no comparison to the quality of the handling found in the RX-8 and 325Ci or 330Ci (pre-2006 imo), for anything less than 50 k, and even above that, you have to be careful to avoid a track car to find "better" without knocking your kidneys into next week, at least on typical public roads (bumpy).

 

I'm suprised at the number of folks here who would/did cross-shop the RX8 and LGT closely enough that giving the RX8 a torquier, less peaky engine would make the difference to them. I've never driven an RX8, but from everything I've read I think I'd really enjoy it. I'd enjoy it for almost entirely different reasons than what I bought my LGT for though; there's pretty much no overlap for me.

 

Are all your needs out of a car really so general or vague that RWD vs AWD and coupe vs sedan or wagon (albiet a much more practical than average coupe with those rear mini-doors) doesn't make a bigger difference than a peaky engine vs a torquier one?

 

I bought an LGT for ski trips. It's my only car so of course it has to be good for driving around town and other road trips, but my last car was good for those too and ski trips are the sole reason I replaced it. Obviously the RX8 wouldn't be a good car for that.

 

Similarly, if I had $20k+ to spend on a second car that was mainly for driving enjoyment, an RX8 would definately be on the list to test drive. Even if I didn't own one already an LGT would not be, nor for that matter would any other sedan or wagon that comes to mind.

[PaulNEPats]

Wow, some of you guys really are knocking on the LGT

[tantal]

Wow, some of you guys really are knocking on the LGT

If you are referring to me, I really don't mean to sound that way at all - sorry. The thing is, the LGT really is a good handling car. However, it is really frustrating to read people comparing it favorably to a VERY good handling car, such as the 3-series (coupe is a definate step above the sedan), the RX-8 (which I maintain is a better handling car than the 3, with much better steering feel - and this is saying a lot), the G35 (again coupe better than the sedan like the 3 but in this cas it is MUCH better =), and maybe even the Acura TSX - but the LGT just may be on par with that guy.

 

I have a strong preference for rwd cars, and I cross-shopped the 525 Touring when I bought my LGT wagon. But for 2005, Subaru FINALLY learned how to do a nice interior - not only is this car a quantum leap ahead of the old legacy - I feel it is TWO quantum leaps over the old legacy =\. Now I still like the look of the (Pre-2005) 5 series touring a lot more than the legacy, but the interior of the GT is close enough for me to the 5 series, the handling is close, and of course the power is much better, and service is cheaper for the LGT. The sound of the LGT motor is not very nice, particularly when compared to that lovely BMW I6, but one cant have everything - I saved enough money to buy a new base miata by buying my LGT instead of the 525, and that is a tradeoff I'm willing to live with.

 

Even if money were not an issue, I would very likely have purchased my LGT wagon - it is that good, and there is almost no significant (fine handling) competition - A4 me no A4, that car is a fat cow =\, and its too small like the 3 touring, and even in the 540 touring I'm not sure you can get a manual but again that car is too heavy for my tastes. However, were I in the market for a sedan, there is no way I would have chosen the LGT - but not because I feel that there are SO many cars out there that are better - no way, not at all. It's that, for me, the 3 series and the RX-8 are just so much more interesting and fun to drive, that there's little competition in my mind. The G35 coupe is excellent, too, but it is very heavy and storage space is very limited. The RX-8 is bigger, believe it or not. I don't buy fwd cars, so I wouldn't consider even the Acura.

 

Just wanted to clear up my opinion.