Advice Needed: Cusco Front and Rear Lower Bars

[VespaGTS]

Hi guys,

Since its a wagon I am trying to tighten up how the car feels on the road. Do you think adding these Cusco braces are a good idea? What would you do next if you had the mods I have installed?

 

https://subimods.com/legacy/2005-2009-legacy/suspension/chassis-bracing/cusco-type-ii-front-lower-bar-2005-2009-lgt.html

 

The parts I have installed already are:

Koni Yellows

King lowering springs

Whiteline Sways F/R

CKESSP Bushings

Moog Endlinks

Perrin Steering Lockdown

 

Thanks in advance!

[boxkita]

a full whiteline or similar bushing upgrade would have a larger effect. The whole catalog.

 

I didn't find the braces that useful. Then again if you are running anything other than lightweight wheels and high quality low profile summer tires, you're wasting your money. If you have that, then coilovers that are actually tuned for your car (not just adjusting the knob) would be the next upgrade. It should also be noted, suspension components with more than 30,000 miles or 2 years on them are worn out. 1 year if you're really thrashing on them.

 

Solid end links on the swaybars worked better for me. ymmv.

 

At a certain point, you'll have to learn to drive the front of the wagon and ignore the back. There's a delay with rear wheels responding at high loads. Tbf, though, you'll never have this problem on the street more than once. Learning high performance driving while make up for alot of the wagon's quirks, especially if you treat it like a fwd car.

 

if the rear is too tight, it slows the car, if its too loose, not good either. Expect a few trips to the corner balance rack to get it set up right. Having video & gps logging will help. A consistent course to compare changes will help.

 

actually clicked the link. I have this. It replaced an oem part. Did it make a difference, meh. Upgrading the front lca bushings to whiteline motorsport made a huge difference

Edited December 11, 2020 by boxkita

[shralp]

Do have these plus a few more Cusco bits on the track car, notice I said track car probably wouldn’t bother with these on a daily, I won’t be putting these on my Outback daily driver. Agree with Boxkita’s suggestion, poly bushings definitely help your daily if you’re ok with a bit more NVH

[VespaGTS]

Thanks guys! Saved me some cash for sure.

[Max Capacity]

Most of my AVO braces are in the shed.

 

I love the Koni Sport yellows on the wagon. With OEM swaybars it corners fairly flat. They have the Epic springs.

[Underdog]

I agree with the others that tires and dampers are top priority, followed by springs, swaybars and bushings to tune the suspension. However I do like the Cusco braces on my street car. They contribute to the overall tightness and “accuracy” of the chassis. Definitely chasing a diminishing return, but that’s what enthusiasts do...

[xrayspecs]

Agreed with Boxkita above, a full catalog of change to poly bushing would net the fastest/most noticeable change to the chassis. I know i did it to my car and it completely transformed the chassis like day and night.

[VespaGTS]

That’s a lot of bushings! Man, I don’t know if I want to tackle it. Would you prioritize some areas over others?

 

Also, I know that aluminum lower control arms are desirable, why other than bling? Wouldn’t it just be better to replace bushings?

[Underdog]

Reduces unsprung weight a bit and they don’t rust, but that’s about it.

[DoctorDaveLGT]

Main benefit of the aluminum lca's are the reduced weight.

 

I've got this but installed with other parts so I can't say for sure how much of the change in feel could be attributed to it. My front suspension already has the full treatment (koni's, swift springs, aluminum lca's, sway/links and full poly) and I bought the brace when it was on sale. Agree with the others that it should be last on the list of suspension items. Especially if you were looking at the 2 bolt type brace as this replaces an OEM part.

[JmP6889928]

That’s a lot of bushings! Man, I don’t know if I want to tackle it. Would you prioritize some areas over others?

 

Also, I know that aluminum lower control arms are desirable, why other than bling? Wouldn’t it just be better to replace bushings?

 

You can bend a steel LCA and still survive it and limp it home, but if you break an aluminum LCA, which I've see happen, it's tow truck time. The amount of weight you save is worthless.

[boxkita]

rant:

Be mindful of "internet/marketing discussions of a part's increased value". Unless you have a goal in mind ("handles better" will bankrupt you), you will be tempted to skip the order of improvements. If you run snow tires, the vast majority of this list will be nearly useless in attaining your goal.

 

@13yo, every bushing on your car needs replacement. Do you need whiteline? no. Does rockauto bargain work? yes, for about 24 months. The higher quality bushings will, for the most part, give a better feel at increased excitement levels. However the oem replacement parts are still 13 years of use newer than what you have.

/rant

 

improvements to your car's handling, assuming 13yo, in order of biggest effect to least:

driver education (improvements to the nut in the seat has a larger effect on handling than anything else)

tires (60% of the car's handling is quality summer tires)

front control arm bushings & ball joints

rear control arm bushings

steering end links

alignment

swaybar & bushings & end links -at same time

struts (can be combined with springs as coilover upgrade)

springs

coilovers

at this point, you are going into the high dollar to small changes categories

wheels (weight is everything)

brake pads, fluid, & lines

steering/body/subframe bushings

shifter upgrade (shorter, bushings, etc)

differential bushings

corner balance

aluminum suspension parts

braces of any kind

[VespaGTS]

rant:

Be mindful of "internet/marketing discussions of a part's increased value". Unless you have a goal in mind ("handles better" will bankrupt you), you will be tempted to skip the order of improvements. If you run snow tires, the vast majority of this list will be nearly useless in attaining your goal.

 

@13yo, every bushing on your car needs replacement. Do you need whiteline? no. Does rockauto bargain work? yes, for about 24 months. The higher quality bushings will, for the most part, give a better feel at increased excitement levels. However the oem replacement parts are still 13 years of use newer than what you have.

/rant

 

improvements to your car's handling, assuming 13yo, in order of biggest effect to least:

driver education (improvements to the nut in the seat has a larger effect on handling than anything else)

tires (60% of the car's handling is quality summer tires)

front control arm bushings & ball joints

rear control arm bushings

steering end links

alignment

swaybar & bushings & end links -at same time

struts (can be combined with springs as coilover upgrade)

springs

coilovers

at this point, you are going into the high dollar to small changes categories

wheels (weight is everything)

brake pads, fluid, & lines

steering/body/subframe bushings

shifter upgrade (shorter, bushings, etc)

differential bushings

corner balance

aluminum suspension parts

braces of any kind

 

 

You rock Boxkita! I’ll start the next upgrade with bushings.

[boxkita]

the mevotech front lca from rockauto come prepopulated with all the bushings as well as being aluminum. Only 87$ per side

[shralp]

We’re people finding that the Mevotech arms were fine but the bushings they came with were crap? Thought I heard something about this

[boxkita]

We’re people finding that the Mevotech arms were fine but the bushings they came with were crap? Thought I heard something about this

 

crap in what way? Its not whiteline but should be oem. Or it didn't last?

 

update- found a post about the arms: https://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/ball-joint-mevotech-aluminum-lower-control-arm-280704.html?p=5952432&highlight=mevotech#post5952432

 

The bushings last about 2 years, and this is expected. However, the arms in question are 3-4 years old at this point, and mevotech has been improving along the way. The aluminum doesn't fail just ball joints (maybe), because there's no actual failure reported just "internet reports".

 

If you were doing it right, you'd get the S402 suspension and the whiteline catalog for $1000's. $170 for 3+ years seems like a good deal. If you're really bothered, you could upgrade all 3 bushings to whiteline or similar. Or better yet, run them as is until you have replaced all the failed bushings elsewhere. You have to pay to play

Edited December 12, 2020 by boxkita

[shralp]

I just remember reading some posts in the past few years that the bushings they were loading in the Mevotech arms were just low quality and seemed to fail fairly quickly. If I remember correctly, guys were just buying them and then putting in proper bushings, (which is a bummer because everyone that doesn't have access to a press is screwed and thats why this Mevotech option was so good).

[shralp]

You can bend a steel LCA and still survive it and limp it home, but if you break an aluminum LCA, which I've see happen, it's tow truck time. The amount of weight you save is worthless.

 

Interesting point and something I had not considered. I've always wanted to put the Aluminum LCA's on the track car but never have, mainly because I knew the weight etc, advantages weren't particularly worth the investment. But yeah, you're right, I'd hate to ding an A arm at the track and then be stranded from there. Although dang, if I'm going as far as trashing an A arm, I think there may be bigger problems to deal with Sure wish I had a tow vehicle and a trailer. It would make my life so much easier.

[boxkita]

here's covertrussian's guide to bushings - https://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/complete-bushing-guide-bl-bp-281856.html?t=281856

[boxkita]

Interesting point and something I had not considered. I've always wanted to put the Aluminum LCA's on the track car but never have, mainly because I knew the weight etc, advantages weren't particularly worth the investment. But yeah, you're right, I'd hate to ding an A arm at the track and then be stranded from there. Although dang, if I'm going as far as trashing an A arm, I think there may be bigger problems to deal with Sure wish I had a tow vehicle and a trailer. It would make my life so much easier.

 

suburban & trailer just sit. make me an offer. You can store the wagon in the trailer and all your wagon stuff in the suburban.

 

If you break an lca, the last thing you're going to be concerned about when they are loading you in the helicopter is that arm.

 

No disrespect to jmp, but "internet folklore". How many actual broken lca have you seen that didn't involve a youtube moment? Gator did a Dukes of Hazard jump with the race wagon and didn't break his. Losangleslgt misjudged a corner bad enough to break a rpf1 without breaking the lca.

Edited December 12, 2020 by boxkita

[JmP6889928]

Saw a broken aluminum LCA on an EVO at Gingerman Raceway in South Haven and he didn't have a huge crash to do it. He went off the candy stripes and caught a big pothole at the end of the rumble strips and it literally snapped it right off. It did a number on his RF fender and tore the brake line off the caliper and probably bent the CO as well, but he wasn't in much of a mood to talk about it.

 

I've also seen wheels broken and SB endlinks fail too and without a huge crash to do it.

[boxkita]

Saw a broken aluminum LCA on an EVO at Gingerman Raceway in South Haven and he didn't have a huge crash to do it. He went off the candy stripes and caught a big pothole at the end of the rumble strips and it literally snapped it right off. It did a number on his RF fender and tore the brake line off the caliper and probably bent the CO as well, but he wasn't in much of a mood to talk about it.

 

I've also seen wheels broken and SB endlinks fail too and without a huge crash to do it.

 

Kind of makes my point, doesn't it? An evo had an off with a pothole, pretty much worst case scenario for suspension damage. This Evo crash made the rounds awhile back - front suspension broke but wheels are still attached-

 

I'm guessing Vespa isn't going to be flogging his/her LGT on a track at 10/10ths anytime soon. Suspension failures, involving destruction of LCAs, are 99% on a track or in a YT moment. There's always the edge case who finds their Darwin moment.

 

Avoiding a reasonable solution because of track damage seems [insert politically correct word for stupid]. The race track is a great place for testing ideas, but its a crappy source for determining best parts selection for your road car.

 

The race wagon has S402 aluminum arms, and the steel ones for backup. Unless I was in an enduro and racing for money and I could fix all the other damage, I'd never swap the LCA during a race. I say that from the comfort of my lazy-boy chair. I know, from past experience, I'd do just anything to get the car back on track.

 

/grumble. marketing hype.

[JmP6889928]

Kind of makes my point, doesn't it? An evo had an off with a pothole, pretty much worst case scenario for suspension damage. This Evo crash made the rounds awhile back - front suspension broke but wheels are still attached-

 

I'm guessing Vespa isn't going to be flogging his/her LGT on a track at 10/10ths anytime soon. Suspension failures, involving destruction of LCAs, are 99% on a track or in a YT moment. There's always the edge case who finds their Darwin moment.

 

Avoiding a reasonable solution because of track damage seems [insert politically correct word for stupid]. The race track is a great place for testing ideas, but its a crappy source for determining best parts selection for your road car.

 

The race wagon has S402 aluminum arms, and the steel ones for backup. Unless I was in an enduro and racing for money and I could fix all the other damage, I'd never swap the LCA during a race. I say that from the comfort of my lazy-boy chair. I know, from past experience, I'd do just anything to get the car back on track.

 

/grumble. marketing hype.

 

I respect all you say, believe me, but if you don't have a rig to haul your car and you drive your car some distance to the racetrack for a track day and then have to tow it home, it's expensive. If you bend a LCA a bit, unless of course, it's completely folded over, you can GENERALLY limp it home even it if cashes in a tire.

 

I've been forced over a curb at about 30 mph in one of my early minivans by an asshat that cut in front of me with about a foot to spare and it scraped the hell out of the steel LCA on it, knocked the tire off the rim, and basically stopped me dead in place. With that kind of real world mishap, if I had had aluminum LCA, it could have certainly broken and then been stuck waiting for the tow truck. Instead, I was able to put the spare on and at least get it home. I took it in for alignment early the next week and it was way off, BUT, he was able to bring it back into spec (albeit at the very edge) and I was able to keep driving without needing to replace the LCA right at that time.

 

The minivan had some ground clearance, my LGT not so much as I have to drive it up on specal ramps I made out of 2" x 12" just to get it up enough to get an aluminum race jack underneath. That impact and the height of the curb would have definitely broken an aluminum LCA, probably bent the CO, and most likely wrecked the SB, and that doesn't even count the damage it would do to the wheel or the front bumper cover and fog light.

 

Folks, do as you will, but I'll remain with the steel and put good WL or SuperPro bushings in them and good BJ in them and paint them heavily to avoid rust and know exactly what I have and not worry. Plus, I like the look of the freshly painted (and I put polished aluminum snap in covers over all of the holes with clear silicone to prevent water and crap getting inside) beefier steel anyway.

 

I also considered filling the LCA with geocell foam as I believe that would give it even more strength without making it heavier, but I don't track the LGT anymore, so a moot point.

Edited December 20, 2020 by JmP6889928

[boxkita]

Cheers. We are firmly on opposite sides with good reasoning. What should we debate next?

 

btw, if I still lived in Michigan and owned an lgt, I'd have run steel arms with a full length aluminum undertray. And carried a full size spare. I remember the roads being terrible in the mid 80's. Hitting a pothole at 100mph usually required a trip to the alignment shop unless you could clip one with the other side. Pre-cellphone? everyone drove fast.

[JmP6889928]

But his is what happens when you pull out to pass someone at about 85 mph and what you see immediately is a 4" x 6" is laying across the lane. Threw it out of alignment, but no snapped LCA's! By the way, I do have the center caps for sale if anyone is interested. These were SSR Comps 18 x 8 with direct Subaru fitment.