CVT or AT H6?

[Cup_of_Joe]

Hey there! Not new to the forums, I've had a 2010 Legacy 2.5i for a bit, but bit the dust and I have a lease at the moment. I'm in the market for a subie, and I want an H6. Should I grab a newer CVT Legacy, or a pre 2015 for a non cvt? It's just going to be my pretty daily driver, maybe some suspension mods to tighten up the corners when I want to drive spiritly . Suggestions?

[IcEWoLF]

I have the 2018 3.6R CVt and it’s pretty good.

[Pleiades 3.6R]

I have the 2018 3.6R CVt and it’s pretty good.

 

Ditto. I had a Outback XT AT as well. I think the CVT hate is overblown. Yes if you're really paying attention you can feel differences but day in and out it does its job well.

[whitetiger]

The CVT is fine when paired with subaru's N/A engines. no so much in the WRX or FXT.

[Perscitus]

Hence the reason its the ONLY transmission choice for domestic market WRX S4, Levorg GT-S, FXTs. Any/all FA20DIT and FA16DIT equipped Subarus, including the good old BM/BR Legacy/Liberty DITs back in 2012/2013.

 

Not the point of this thread though... EZ36D does fine mated to either slushbox and controlled by either Denso (BM/BR) or Hitachi (BN/BS). If the OP is after significantly increasing the average and peak torque figures, go 5EAT. If drivability and spirited DD duty is the main concern... with/without any power mods keeping torque south of 340-360ftlbfs, especially at low RPMs, go Lineatronic HT-CVT.

 

Bone stock - cant go wrong with either mated to this dying breed engine.

[Pilot1226]

Hey there! Not new to the forums, I've had a 2010 Legacy 2.5i for a bit, but bit the dust and I have a lease at the moment. I'm in the market for a subie, and I want an H6. Should I grab a newer CVT Legacy, or a pre 2015 for a non cvt? It's just going to be my pretty daily driver, maybe some suspension mods to tighten up the corners when I want to drive spiritly . Suggestions?

 

The new (2018) Legacy has some better tuning for the CVT itself, along with what I think is better suspension/handling. I recently took the 3.6 for a test drive and it was really, really impressive. I'm in the same boat as you - I have a 2011 Outback with the same 2.5 engine you have - and I made up my mind to grab the 3.6 next time.

 

However, the 3.6 is probably going to go away when they refresh the OB/Legacy in 2020 to the new model on the "Global Platform" - a lot of good things from the GP as seen in the Crosstrek and others already moved to it, so you might have to weigh your desire for the 3.6 vs. the GP because you probably won't have both.

 

I think the CVT paired with the 3.6 is a great choice for a DD. While the long-term CVT longevity is still not available (High Torque CVT introduced in 2015, and revised a few times since then. They're making them better than ever, now... our CVT in our 2.5 introduced in 2010 in the Outback/Legacy... revised several times also...) I think it's a good choice. The benefit to the CVT is that it produces I think close to 95% of peak torque around 2000 RPM - so you don't really need to "floor" it in any typical start-from-a-stop situation. It moves pretty quickly when you ask it to.

 

(Torque is the amount of work, horsepower is how fast that torque can do the work...)

 

That being said the 2.5 seemed really nice too in the 2018's with the FB engine. The top-mount oil filter is pretty cool, too, making it even easier for DIY oil changes (better than reaching through the ring of fire in our 2.5 we do now on our EJ engine!)

 

You may be so happy with the tuning changes for the 2018 that you might not want to change any of the handling-related things, but if you did, I'd start with the 19 or 20mm rear sway bar. That'll stiffen up the ride a bit. While you're at it, I'd suggest you get slightly stiffer bushings for the RSB also, which'll last longer too since they're poly instead of the rubber OEM ones.

 

As pointed out above, the hate for the CVT I think is because the technology is new, and we don't have long-term data. That doesn't mean it's bad. I truly believe it's among the best CVT's in the business, if not the best. The criticism seems to stem from the non-mainteance of the CVT Fluid itself, since there's no fluid change interval. Subaru USA suggests it's a lifetime fluid, unless you're towing something (which you wouldn't in a Legacy, anyway)... Subaru Canada has a 100,000 kilometer fluid change interval...

 

The old ATF had to be changed, I think, in 30k increments. The newer CVTF is more robust and resilient. It's also a sealed unit, so there's a bit of mystery and a lot of procedure to check the fluid levels.

[dgoodhue]

I would probably test drive both of them and decide for yourself which transmission and package you like better. IMO the 2015 up have a nicer interior

[scoobydo2.0]

I have been a CVT Hater since I drove a NA Mini Cooper in 2002, and every car I have driven since has left me frustrated by the lag between gears and the incessant revving when "shifting". With that said I was given a 2018 2.5i Premium Outback as a loaner while my WRX was at the Dealership getting some recalls done on it and I fell in love with the way the car drove. I "shifted" where I wanted to hear/feel, but it was a smooth transition. I know that it's not a 3.6R but if the transmission programing is the same you will be happy with how it rides. FWIW, I have a deposit on a 2018 2.5i Limited now after borrowing that Outback for a weekend.

[eagleeye]

if you are tempted to get a 2015 H6 legacy or outback.

 

know that those 2015 High Torque CVTs

are part of the extended warranty to 100,000 miles.

 

(just like all the rest of the plain ones from 2010-15 ).

 

a lady on the outback board asked SOA what the process is:

 

postings around this one tell the tale:

http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/66-problems-maintenance/429481-cvt-warranty-extension-2010-15-a.html#post5352105

 

and the dealers are glutted with 2015s back from 3 year leases,

and won't have 2016s back in quantity until August/ Sept.

 

(and the sales reps are keeping quiet about the ext. warranty as they have to sell that glut off).

[Pilot1226]

10 years and 100k miles is a long time. I would have no problems picking up a used 15 coming off a lease if the mileage was right.

[eagleeye]

10 years and 100k miles is a long time. I would have no problems picking up a used 15 coming off a lease if the mileage was right.

 

but if you were someone that was known to put 20,000 miles on per year.

(pretty typical if someone's only vehicle).

 

and bought a 2015 off lease now with 36,000 on it now.

 

drove it 3.5 years to 101,000 miles. and the CVT shitts the bed.

 

how much is subaru going to ask you for a reman'd 2015 transmission.?

 

...and how much is a 3rd party warranty company going to charge for a warranty on that unfixed 2015 transmission. ...and or a unfixed FB25B 2013-15 US spec engine. on cars with more then 100,000 miles on them.

($$$$)

 

_______

 

this vs. just waiting till fall.

when you can pick any 2016 coming in off lease you want,.

..and walk past the 2015 over ripe unfixed drama queens, just left there stinking up the lot.

[Pilot1226]

I agree it's a crapshoot. But, let's hope that it doesn't fail just out of warranty. And even if it does, Subaru is the kind of company that might meet you half way, ya know?

 

Sure, I don't want to shell out 2-3000 for a valve body replacement but if they make it so it's only 1500 and I end up driving that thing another 10 years - that's $150 a year. Heck of a lot cheaper than a car payment.

[phuzaxeman]

I have the 2018 legacy 3.6r and the CVT is great. Love it. I have also the Tribeca 3.6 auto and the CVT is better.

[cseagle08]

Having owned an older 5EAT, and a new CVT with the 3.6R....

 

The CVT is better and smoother.

[bluesuby]

The new (2018) Legacy has some better tuning for the CVT itself, along with what I think is better suspension/handling. I recently took the 3.6 for a test drive and it was really, really impressive. I'm in the same boat as you - I have a 2011 Outback with the same 2.5 engine you have - and I made up my mind to grab the 3.6 next time.

 

However, the 3.6 is probably going to go away when they refresh the OB/Legacy in 2020 to the new model on the "Global Platform" - a lot of good things from the GP as seen in the Crosstrek and others already moved to it, so you might have to weigh your desire for the 3.6 vs. the GP because you probably won't have both.

 

I think the CVT paired with the 3.6 is a great choice for a DD. While the long-term CVT longevity is still not available (High Torque CVT introduced in 2015, and revised a few times since then. They're making them better than ever, now... our CVT in our 2.5 introduced in 2010 in the Outback/Legacy... revised several times also...) I think it's a good choice. The benefit to the CVT is that it produces I think close to 95% of peak torque around 2000 RPM - so you don't really need to "floor" it in any typical start-from-a-stop situation. It moves pretty quickly when you ask it to.

 

(Torque is the amount of work, horsepower is how fast that torque can do the work...)

 

That being said the 2.5 seemed really nice too in the 2018's with the FB engine. The top-mount oil filter is pretty cool, too, making it even easier for DIY oil changes (better than reaching through the ring of fire in our 2.5 we do now on our EJ engine!)

 

You may be so happy with the tuning changes for the 2018 that you might not want to change any of the handling-related things, but if you did, I'd start with the 19 or 20mm rear sway bar. That'll stiffen up the ride a bit. While you're at it, I'd suggest you get slightly stiffer bushings for the RSB also, which'll last longer too since they're poly instead of the rubber OEM ones.

 

As pointed out above, the hate for the CVT I think is because the technology is new, and we don't have long-term data. That doesn't mean it's bad. I truly believe it's among the best CVT's in the business, if not the best. The criticism seems to stem from the non-mainteance of the CVT Fluid itself, since there's no fluid change interval. Subaru USA suggests it's a lifetime fluid, unless you're towing something (which you wouldn't in a Legacy, anyway)... Subaru Canada has a 100,000 kilometer fluid change interval...

 

The old ATF had to be changed, I think, in 30k increments. The newer CVTF is more robust and resilient. It's also a sealed unit, so there's a bit of mystery and a lot of procedure to check the fluid levels.

 

CVT technology has been around since the 1960s, invented by DAF. Hard to pass judgement yet. Ask a guy with a two year old car how it's holding up? I'm thinking if CVT is so great why are none of the top end automakers using it?

[Pilot1226]

I believe that Subaru did it right, researched thoroughly, and developed something pretty robust. They used a chain-type of "belt" compared to what Nissan and others did. Nissan was notorious for having CVT failures around the 50-60k mark, I believe.

 

Subaru probably has among the best - if not the best - CVT in the passenger car market right now.

 

Top-end automakers are trying to figure out a way to do some type of hybrid-type drive because the electric motors allow instant torque to the wheels, making them exceptionally fast on acceleration compared to their ICE counterparts (where the engine makes power, then the driveshaft turns the flywheel, connected to the transmission, yadda yadda, etc.)

 

In the US the CVT models have been around for over 8 years now, first appearing in the 2010 Outbacks, which has undergone a few revisions so far. While the warranties have been extended for 2010-15 models depending on models/trims/variants, overall, the CVT has had a positive impact for Subaru, especially meeting fuel economy goals.

 

In a perfect world I'd have a dipstick and an easier time draining and filling my CVT so I could do it at regular intervals without jumping through too many hoops. I'd also have ventilated seats and a Touring Outback trim that doesn't force me into Java Brown Leather. Guy can dream, right?

 

From what I've heard on the forums, after you remove the first torque converter design, there have been fewer CVT-related problems compared to 4/5EAT related problems. I don't have an exact number for incidence rate, not sure if something like that is available. Subaru has almost tripled their output over the last 10 years. That's massive.

 

Remember, most of the "millions" of cars they've sold in the few years don't have issues. Aside from we precious few that get out kicks out of posting on Subaru related message boards, why would the average person come onto a site like this unless they actually were having a problem? it may appear to be an observation bias... (meaning, I see 10 posts about bad CVTs and therefore all CVTs must be bad, but in reality, it might be 10 over several different years and variants to that same CVT out of 2 million vehicles sold... 10 out of 2 million is pretty good.)

[laufu]

For what its worth, Schaeffler's Luk brand did help Subaru with the CVT. They made the chain and guide rails. Schaeffler also provides belts to Jatco (Nissan) and use to provide them to Audi when they offered CVTs. So, I think Subaru just did it better.

 

Toyota has a new CVT that has a gear for starting from a stand still. Pretty neat.

 

Also don't forget the Subaru Justy ECVT from 1989!!

[Cup_of_Joe]

Yeah, no idea what I want to go with yet, but I still have a year and a half to decide. I read that the new engines use timing chains, not belts anymore. I was leaning towards the 3.6 for the timing chain, and the rarity of it. But now I'm considering an Impreza wagon. Or if I can afford it at the time, finally get a wrx. I was leaning against a turbo, for maintenance purposes, but I may just say hello with it and get the extra hp. Plus after a few years I can start upgrading things etc.

[Pilot1226]

For what its worth, Schaeffler's Luk brand did help Subaru with the CVT. They made the chain and guide rails. Schaeffler also provides belts to Jatco (Nissan) and use to provide them to Audi when they offered CVTs. So, I think Subaru just did it better.

 

Toyota has a new CVT that has a gear for starting from a stand still. Pretty neat.

 

Also don't forget the Subaru Justy ECVT from 1989!!

 

Yeah the direct drive is interesting. I don’t know Toyota transmission reliability compared to Subaru so i can’t speculate.

 

Yeah, no idea what I want to go with yet, but I still have a year and a half to decide. I read that the new engines use timing chains, not belts anymore. I was leaning towards the 3.6 for the timing chain, and the rarity of it. But now I'm considering an Impreza wagon. Or if I can afford it at the time, finally get a wrx. I was leaning against a turbo, for maintenance purposes, but I may just say hello with it and get the extra hp. Plus after a few years I can start upgrading things etc.

 

Agreed. I like the idea of NA over turbo.

 

All FB series, FA, and EZ have timing chains. The EJ has a belt (hence the STI is the only one left with a belt)