My First Engine Build: PDX Flavor

[covertrussian]

I don't think it's AF learning related. Since your have an aftermarket intake your AF learning might be that high because of that. Pull a learning view and you should see learning through airflow ranges, which would be more useful.

 

Are you running a Cobb SF tune?

 

Do you have a real wideband?

 

Fuel pump hitting 100% duty cycle shouldn't trigger a fuel cut, but overboosting or MAF acting up will (intakes will do that without a proper tune).

[lgt503]

I don't think it's AF learning related. Since your have an aftermarket intake your AF learning might be that high because of that. Pull a learning view and you should see learning through airflow ranges, which would be more useful.

 

I dont think its the aftermarket intake because I drove ~500 miles before the A/F went outside the suggested range. If your talking about the AF Learning A B C D the picture in the above post shows the what they were at earlier.

 

Are you running a Cobb SF tune?

 

Yes, I am running the Cobb "MT ECONOMY MODE + SF MAP"

 

Do you have a real wideband?

 

I dont have a real wideband, it would probably be handy right about now.

 

Fuel pump hitting 100% duty cycle shouldn't trigger a fuel cut, but overboosting or MAF acting up will (intakes will do that without a proper tune).

 

Im going to take a look at the MAF sensor. I cleaned it during the rebuild but its most likely original with 115k. maybe its just going bad?

 

Thanks for the reply covertrussian!

[fahr_side]

Sounds to me like you are overboosting and hit fuel. Cobb are loathe to disable the cat efficiency code unless you have a catless DP I think.

[lgt503]

GOOD NEWS! PROBLEM SOLVED:).

 

The Throttle Body (TB) hose popped off on the TB end. the hose was still lined up but the section with the c-clamp was no longer holding the hose to the TB. I discovered this after I plugged the intake and blew into the BOV return hose. The vacuum line wasn't holding pressure and i could hear some noise right around the area I was blowing into. Of course the leak was coming form the hardest to reach hose. Guess this makes sense.

 

I'm going to drive a few trips to get some new AF Learning readings.

[Max Capacity]

Wait a minute, don't you have the GS tmic...How did that hose not get installed right...rookie mistake.

 

I'll have to admit I missed putting the other end of the TB hose on my GS tmic once, but it was easy to figure out what I did wrong and fix it. I fix it in a buddies driveway and was surprised at how much cooler the cold side was from the hot side after shutting the car off. I was last Oct so the evening air was cool.

[lgt503]

Hey Max, how did you align the c-clamp on the TB to tighten it? here is a picture of where im tightening the c-clam but its really hard to reach and was wondering if there is a better way.

 

 

I probably just didnt get if tight enough last time and the boost eventually popped it off.

 

I was also amazed how cold the one side of the IC gets, it feels like an ice cube! I diffidently never noticed this with the original IC.

[Max Capacity]

You should be able to move the two hoses from the blow off valve a little and get a clearer shot at the screw clamp at the TB. It can be done with the GS not installed, just make sure the IC end is flat so the GS tmic drops in.

[rhino6303]

Hey Max, how did you align the c-clamp on the TB to tighten it? here is a picture of where im tightening the c-clam but its really hard to reach and was wondering if there is a better way.

 

[ATTACH]248489[/ATTACH]

 

I probably just didnt get if tight enough last time and the boost eventually popped it off.

 

I was also amazed how cold the one side of the IC gets, it feels like an ice cube! I diffidently never noticed this with the original IC.

I rotate the clip so I can tighten/loosen the clamp from between the runners of the intake manifold.

[Max Capacity]

Just took this,

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x40/92Si/DSCN7473_zps5zm98zhr.jpg

[StkmltS]

My clamp is on 180° from Max's, but facing the same direction (towards the driver side). With a long extension I find it fairly easy to get a socket on it.

[lgt503]

I ended up rotating my to match Max. Its on much better now.

[lgt503]

I got some new goodies!

 

I bought the Cobb Short Shifter from shralp, free delivery to my door and all, Thanks Again! Im really enjoying this mod. The short throw makes me feel like Im driving a race car haha.

 

 

I also installed an Jazzy Engineering Aux-In. I've been wanting this for a while and finally decided to pull the trigger.

 

Whats next????

[lgt503]

A few hours ago I got home and then my coolant decided to overflow from the overflow reservoir. It didn't start overflowing til I turned off my car and let it sit for a minute. After a minute or so I head a dripping sound and a small puddle ensued. checked the overflow tank and it was to the top. I massaged the upper radiator hose and could hear what sounded like are? anyways after massaging for a minute the overflow tank dropped back to a normal range.

 

During the drive I didn't notice anything unusual with the temperature gauge

 

 

My initial forum search of these symptoms alarmed me! everyone talks about head gaskets failure. I didn't see any oil in the coolant which is good, I also have new head gaskets with ARP studs (torqued correctly). I think my heads gaskets are fine. I also have a new thermostat and water pump.

 

Can a newish (~1100miles) thermostat get stuck?

 

I plan on burping my car in the morning also ill see if any exhaust is coming out of the coolant turbo reservoirs.

 

I can always do a compression test but I really don't think I blew a head gasket. I think its more likely one of the heads would be bad.

 

My tune is in 9 days so I really need to have everything in order. At least this didn't happen next Saturday.

 

its really late now and Im sure I forgot some details but if anyone has any thoughts or suggestions they are always appreciated!

[Darth SpecB]

Well you definitely have an external leak. I highly doubt anything is wrong with your thermostat, or else overheating would be a symptom, if it were stuck closed, or installed backwards.

 

We're you running the a/c at all? I have seen condensation puddles from a/c similar to yours but it is hard to distinguish the color of the liquid.

I would smell the liquid puddle to see if it is indeed coolant.

 

If you have access to a pressure tester, you can pressurize the cooling system to help you look for a leak. Or you can run the car, and see if it leaks then.

 

If no obvious leaks are present, from heads, heater/radiator hoses, a good place to check would be the intake manifold. There is a small hose underneath there which may be leaking, if you did not replace or forgot to reconnect properly during reassembly. I believe you have to take off the top Mount intercooler to access it.

 

Definitely seems like air is in the system. I wouldn't worry too much about the heads, unless the engine was overheated during failure or prior to rebuild.

 

Just curious but what was the torque sequence used on the heads? I have found that starting from 30ft lbs, then 60 ft lbs, then 90 ft lbs, helps seat the head evenly. Ofcourse starting from the center out.

 

Also double check the oil, to see if it is "milky"

 

Good luck! And hopefully you find this minor issue, before it causes any other problems.

 

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[rhino6303]

On your first start after your build, how well did you burp the coolant?

 

I'd imagine your issue is just a large air pocket in the coolant system.

[lgt503]

Well you definitely have an external leak. I highly doubt anything is wrong with your thermostat, or else overheating would be a symptom, if it were stuck closed, or installed backwards.

 

We're you running the a/c at all? I have seen condensation puddles from a/c similar to yours but it is hard to distinguish the color of the liquid.

I would smell the liquid puddle to see if it is indeed coolant.

 

If you have access to a pressure tester, you can pressurize the cooling system to help you look for a leak. Or you can run the car, and see if it leaks then.

 

If no obvious leaks are present, from heads, heater/radiator hoses, a good place to check would be the intake manifold. There is a small hose underneath there which may be leaking, if you did not replace or forgot to reconnect properly during reassembly. I believe you have to take off the top Mount intercooler to access it.

 

Definitely seems like air is in the system. I wouldn't worry too much about the heads, unless the engine was overheated during failure or prior to rebuild.

 

Just curious but what was the torque sequence used on the heads? I have found that starting from 30ft lbs, then 60 ft lbs, then 90 ft lbs, helps seat the head evenly. Ofcourse starting from the center out.

 

Also double check the oil, to see if it is "milky"

 

my a/c isnt currently charged, Also I smelled the liquid and it smelled like coolant+ overflow reservoir was all filled up.

 

Torque sequence was 30 60 90 starting from center, easy to remember!

 

I dont have a pressure tester but i might have to pick one up if i dont figure this out today.

 

 

On your first start after your build, how well did you burp the coolant?

 

I'd imagine your issue is just a large air pocket in the coolant system.

 

I thought I burped the system just fine. I changed my radiator before so i was familiar with how to refill the system. I doubt air bubble were in the system for 1000 miles before I had the issue. Anyhow it would be nice if this was just from some air bubble thats been in the system.

[lgt503]

I was going to follow rao's burp procedure

 

1. Fill the radiator to the top and put on the round cap. Once it has been filled DO NOT OPEN THAT CAP AGAIN.

2. Fill the overflow up to the MIN mark.

3. Fill the tank by the turbo and leave the cap OFF.

4. Start the car, heat on max, AC off (so the fan stays off) let it IDLE until the fans turn on, which means that the thermostat is open.

5. Add coolant to top off the tank by the turbo then put the cap on and you are DONE

6. Keep an eye on the tank by the turbo for the next few days and add coolant i f necessary.

7. Also keep an eye on the over flow tank when the engine is cold and add coolant if it is below the MIN line

 

This works every time and is easy.

 

My car seems to idle fine, nothing unusual there.

 

The turbo coolant reservoir was bubbling. I smelled the bubbles but didnt notice any exhaust fumes, it smell like coolant.

 

after a minute the coolant reached the top of the reservoir and started overflowing. the coolant had stopped bubbling almost completely, but was swirling.

 

at this point I turned off the car, cracked the radiator cap to release enough pressure to drop the coolant down on the turbo reservoir. I wouldn't have done this if the engine was any warmer. Also it would have been less messy if I just syphoned straight some coolant out of the turbo reservoir.

 

I capped the turbo coolant reservoir and turned the car back on. The car ran until the temp needle almost reached its normal point. The heater was on full blast, at some point I reved the engine to 2500 for a minute. The radiator fans never turned on which I think is odd.

The CEL is from the the cat efficiency threshold P420.

 

 

Aren't the fans supposed to go on when the thermostat opens? maybe bad thermostat?

 

I also was watching the overflow tank and it did go up 1/2-1 cm. Im going to double check but I didnt see anything leaking.

[rhino6303]

Are you positive the caps are in the correct places?

 

108 kpa on turbo reservoir and 137 kpa on radiator. You coild have your caps pressure tested as one of those may be bad.

 

I really doubt a new oem thermostat would be bad but it is possible.

[Max Capacity]

I thought the caps were different and would not fit on the other tank ?

[Max Capacity]

I was going to follow rao's burp procedure

 

 

 

 

 

.

 

The only thing I see missing from that is jack up the right front corner of the car. I do that.

[lgt503]

Im going to try burping the system again and i will jack up the right front this time.

 

The fuses looked good. Im thinking of testing the fan relays, fans and fan connectors next using a multi meter/battery. there is some information about this in the haynes repair manual.

 

does anybody think its weird my turbo coolant reservoir was bubbling and overflowing when I first started my car earlier?

[Darth SpecB]

Try to disconnect and reconnect the connection to the fans. This worked for me. I would say the bubbles are normal because all the air is escaping from the system. Also while burping, squeeze the heater hoses.

 

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[Sgt.Gator]

Are you positive the caps are in the correct places?

 

108 kpa on turbo reservoir and 137 kpa on radiator. You coild have your caps pressure tested as one of those may be bad.

 

I really doubt a new oem thermostat would be bad but it is possible.

 

+1 on what Rhino says. If you have the caps reveresed all kinds of weird cooling issues will happen.

 

I thought the caps were different and would not fit on the other tank ?

 

They are different internally, but they both fit on each tank, which causes the problems.

 

Note, if you are using an aftermarket cap it is very important you put it in the right place too. Mishimoto specifically has a warning that their radiator cap that comes with their performance radiators is NOT to be used on the radiator! It goes on the reservoir tank.

 

See my post here:

http://legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5596628&postcount=4

[lgt503]

I had the caps reversed. now the 137kPa is on the radiator and the cap with tabs that says 16psi (~110kPa) I put on the turbo reservoir.

 

I also unplugged and reconnected the fan wires.

 

I raised the right front of the car and massaged the upper and lower coolant lines. I couldnt leave the the turbo reservoir tank cap off since the coolant kept rising, same thing that was happening before. I have also notice a pressure buildup which causes the coolant hoses to be stiffer and harder to squeeze.

 

 

I turned the car off after the temperature got up to 183degrees according to the AP. The upper coolant hose was hot but the lower hose was cool. The radiator fans never turned on. I guess the thermostat never opened.

 

the following Thread I found interesting,

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/interesting-read-subaru-cooling-systems-120477.html

 

The difference between subaru engines and almost all other engines is how the thermostat of the engine is controlled. In a conventional engine the thermostat opens when hot water inside the engine rises to the top and contact the active side of the thermostat. In a subaru engine the thermostat is located right at the bottom of the engine off the water pump. Thus the water on the active side of the thermostat stays much colder that a conventional engine. For the thermostat in a subaru to work correctly it uses the secondary flow system through the cars heater core. Hot water is taken from the top of the engine, were it flows through the heater core and back to the active side of the thermostat. Primarily, this is how the engines temperature is controlled in a subaru.

 

If the heater core becomes blocked or partially blocked heres what happens.

 

1.) The thermostat will open under the wrong engine temperature conditions.

2.) The engine will overheat under moderatly demanding conditions (i.e. a hill).

3.) The overheating will cause the water in the engine to expand and there will be a big spike in the pressure in the cooling system. This big increase in pressure coupled with the distortion of the cylinder heads will more than likely cause the head gasket to blow.

4.) The increase in pressure will override the spring in the radiator cap and the coolant will flow into the overflow bottle.

5.) When the demand on the engine reduces it will cool down. The reduced volume of water will cause the top radiator hose to suck in.

 

For you own sake if you have a blown head gasket and your car is overheating ( i.e. sooty water) try doing the following before you pull the car to pieces. You can either bypass the heater core or remove the thermostat. Both of these options should stop the car from overheating. Of course you would still need to have the head gaskets replaced and eventually replace the heater core but at least you would know what the heck was going on a why the head gaskets blew.

 

The reason why subaru dished out special treatment for the water in the cooling system was an attempt to stop the heater core from blocking and exposing Subaru engineer's for making such a thoughtlessly designed cooling system.[/size][/font]

 

Does anybody think my heater core could be blocked? The heater in my car was blasting out hot air if that means anything. Im really new to a lot of this stuff so thanks for sticking with me, knowing my luck I am overlooking something super obvious, like the caps on backwards.

 

I added the coolant conditioner during my rebuild. I also used conditioner on my car when I replaced the radiator prior to my rebuild. the conditoner has lots of particles that could cause issues like blockages or so Ive read.

 

Maybe the reversed radiator and reservoir caps F***ed something up?

 

Im thinking of calling the dealer tomorrow, It would be cool if they could get my car in and look at it same day. I have AAA so i can get my car towed to the dealer since I dont want to drive it right now.

 

Cobb isnt open Mondays so I don't know if i can get in touch with them tomorrow. I need to let them know whats going on since i have a dyno tune scheduled in just over a week.

[Darth SpecB]

1.) The thermostat will open under the wrong engine temperature conditions.

2.) The engine will overheat under moderatly demanding conditions (i.e. a hill).

3.) The overheating will cause the water in the engine to expand and there will be a big spike in the pressure in the cooling system. This big increase in pressure coupled with the distortion of the cylinder heads will more than likely cause the head gasket to blow.

4.) The increase in pressure will override the spring in the radiator cap and the coolant will flow into the overflow bottle.

5.) When the demand on the engine reduces it will cool down. The reduced volume of water will cause the top radiator hose to suck in.

 

I would bet that switching the caps was your problem. You did not experience overheating. You do not have symptoms of a blown head gasket. The radiator hose was stiff "pressurized" not sucked in. If the heater core was blocked, more than likely, your heater would not work, since hot coolant would not flow through it.

 

It won't hurt to double check the flow through the heater core by pulling off the hoses and flowing pressurized water through. Drive the car, if leak persists. Find where it is coming from. Air in the system can cause an overflow because air expands more than water.

 

 

 

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