2009 SpecB First Rebuild

[birkhoff]

Here are the NPR rings I used (ebay), but from a different seller. These are even in CA so you'd get 'em quick.

 

Careful, that links to a set for a 10 thou oversize bore ( I think). Same seller has them sized in STD which is what you want.

 

Edit: StkmltS has since updated the link to a seller that allows you to select bore size, STD, 0.25 or 0.50.

[StkmltS]

Careful, that links to a set for a 10 thou oversize bore ( I think). Same seller has them sized in STD which is what you want.

 

I think you may be right, kinda unclear though. It's the correct p/n but with a -1 at the end... it must be wrong. I updated the link in my other post to reflect a different item (correct bore, no doubt this time).

Birkhoff, maybe delete the hyperlink from your last post so we don't direct someone to the wrong thing.

[Darth SpecB]

Here are the NPR rings I used (ebay), but from a different seller. These are even in CA so you'd get 'em quick.

 

*edit* link corrected

I have ordered these exact set yesterday. I'm a little iffy with eBay parts but this will have to do because oem is outrageous.

 

BTW I have been using your thread as a step by step to help me with my rebuild. I can't figure out how to realign avcs gears using cams, so more research for me tonight! As far as I know the dowel on the cam should align with the 3 lobe gear that sits in the middle of the housing.

 

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[StkmltS]

I have ordered these exact set yesterday. I'm a little iffy with eBay parts but this will have to do because oem is outrageous.

 

BTW I have been using your thread as a step by step to help me with my rebuild. I can't figure out how to realign avcs gears using cams, so more research for me tonight! As far as I know the dowel on the cam should align with the 3 lobe gear that sits in the middle of the housing.

 

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I'm glad to hear my thread is a useful resource

 

I ordered my rings off ebay and I was pleasantly surprised to find out they were pre-gapped to the STI spec. Amazon has become my go-to place for online purchases, but I still check out eBay sometimes to see if I can get a used "X" item for cheaper. I think these NPR rings are the only thing for my entire rebuild that I bought off eBay.

 

The AVCS sprockets (intake gears) should only go on one way, can you take a picture to help explain what's giving you trouble? Maybe you have the intake and exhaust cams swapped. If something critical ever doesn't feel 100% right: pause, take a breath, think your way through it again until you're confident everything is right, then resume.

[birkhoff]

On the back of the gear are 5 holes. Four small ones and one slightly larger. The dowel pin goes in the larger hole. That sets your intake cam timing -- simple as that. The other holes are oil ports.

 

Except, it is fussy to get the dowel pin to engage. Check out CSlenker802's thread for all you need to know. Skip to around post #105 where things start to go sideways. It is important to fit the gear by hand and make sure it is all the way in before you start tightening down the cam bolt.

 

If you look carefully at the outside rim of the cam gear, I think you will find a small notch that is in line with the bore for the dowel. Make a mark on the back cover that aligns with the cam's down pin and then assemble by hand, matching those marks. That will get you close enough to wiggle the pin into the correct hole. If you can't find the notch, make a mark.

[Darth SpecB]

UPDATE

 

I got my King Main bearings in the mail today! Needless to say I pushed cleaning my avcs gears to the side to assemble the shortblock.

 

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161217/9ef67a60227e198723cd75c34ef8ccc7.jpg

 

Main bearing oil clearances:

 

M1 .001

M2 .001

M3 .001

M4 .001

M5 .0015

 

Rod oil clearances:

 

R1 .0015

R2 .0015

R3 .0015

R4 .0015

 

Measured with plastigauge.

 

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161217/b59c970293bd30882ce8508ae071ee71.jpg

 

Shortblock - Pistons.

I'm still waiting on NPR rings.

 

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161217/81463635240f04ac1e1ac7b82e6d5190.jpg

 

Does anyone know where these O rings go?

 

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161217/099b359ea949d70c0eac273f8becb5a0.jpg

 

Or what about these??

 

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161217/0bc447acb35f341a85bcc72b6abb5c04.jpg

 

Sent from a galaxy far far away...

[Max Capacity]

Doesn't the service manual show where they go, or the opposedforces site show.

[birkhoff]

Look at the first sticky post in this sub-forum. There are pictures of all the gaskets with keys to part numbers and applications.

 

Since you already have the case together, I guess you used up the o-rings for the block (red and three black ones?) so best guess for the first picture is the coolant crossovers and maybe the seals for the AVCS gear cover plates? There should be an oil pump o-ring in there somewhere -- perhaps the smaller one you are showing? Or the one in the second picture. I seem to recall now that it is a formed o-ring. There is also an o-ring for the smaller of the two covers at the back of the block. Of course the clip is for the piston pin -- two per piston.

 

If you keep the gaskets with the parts on teardown (bag -em up together) then then you have all the info you need when you start putting things back together.

 

Did you check the piston pin fit in the rods before assembly?

[Darth SpecB]

Doesn't the service manual show where they go, or the opposedforces site show.

I'm not sure if the service manual has a Gasket lost but I will double check or end up using the sticky.

 

 

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[Darth SpecB]

Look at the first sticky post in this sub-forum. There are pictures of all the gaskets with keys to part numbers and applications.

 

Since you already have the case together, I guess you used up the o-rings for the block (red and three black ones?) so best guess for the first picture is the coolant crossovers and maybe the seals for the AVCS gear cover plates? There should be an oil pump o-ring in there somewhere -- perhaps the smaller one you are showing? Or the one in the second picture. I seem to recall now that it is a formed o-ring. There is also an o-ring for the smaller of the two covers at the back of the block. Of course the clip is for the piston pin -- two per piston.

 

If you keep the gaskets with the parts on teardown (bag -em up together) then then you have all the info you need when you start putting things back together.

 

Did you check the piston pin fit in the rods before assembly?

 

Good idea I will use the sticky. Yes I used the red oring and 3 black orings. I added the piston c clip as a size reference. I have most of the gaskets still on the parts that I took off. I believe 1 or 2 got blasted off when I pressure washed the block.

 

I did not check the wrist pins for fitment that would have been a good idea but I got ahead of myself. I was hoping manley's machining process would take care of that for me!

 

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[Darth SpecB]

Unfortunately the Manley Rods do not fit with the stock pistons. Oem pistons and rods are tapered so I'm going to be set back another week. I just ordered 4 new oem rods from heuberger subaru for $245. Hopefully I can return the Manley rods.

 

Sent from a galaxy far far away...

[birkhoff]

Yup, wondered about that.

 

There is so much information out there that one can be led to believe this sort of project is simple. It is not. Even when rebuilding exactly to stock it helps to have some experience.

 

Too bad you have to split the block. I would think the o-rings will be good for one more run since they were not squished for too long, or heated. Take your time with the sealant, just like the first time.

 

You didn't need new rods - just resizing the big ends and checking the pin bores, which is completely standard when rebuilding from stock. Do new stock rods come with pin bushes installed and sized? Anyone?

[Darth SpecB]

Yup, wondered about that.

 

There is so much information out there that one can be led to believe this sort of project is simple. It is not. Even when rebuilding exactly to stock it helps to have some experience.

 

Too bad you have to split the block. I would think the o-rings will be good for one more run since they were not squished for too long, or heated. Take your time with the sealant, just like the first time.

 

You didn't need new rods - just resizing the big ends and checking the pin bores, which is completely standard when rebuilding from stock. Do new stock rods come with pin bushes installed and sized? Anyone?

 

I wish it was that simple. I tend to do things the hard way.

 

The seals were squished for 2 days. Splitting the block was easier this time it practically fell apart.

 

The problem with resizing the rods is I would have to buy new bearings again. I would hope bushes are installed and big ends machined to spec since they are coming from the factory. I will check the clearances and verify when they arive.

[birkhoff]

Not that it matters now, but you wouldn't need new bearings. Resizing the rods means cutting the caps a few thou at the parting line and then re-honing the bore to exact stock size. A pretty common step in any rebuild.

 

The only extra fiddle with a Subaru is there is no base bore spec for rods (or mainline for that matter) in the FSM. But I'm sure a machine shop knows where to look for that information, or they can measure a good rod.

 

Maybe for next time, or for someone else in this situation. Unless the rod is seriously overheated from the spun bearing, they should be good for re-use after resizing, checking for square and knocking out the old bushing and fitting and honing a new one.

[GEE-OTTO]

I guess you are almost past the point of buying an assembled OEM SB but this way you get to know the intricacies of the bottom end. Ive done 1 rebuild in 16 years, on a EJ251 out of a 2.5 RS had two spun crank bearings.

 

Seems like you are making progress given the setbacks

[Darth SpecB]

Not that it matters now, but you wouldn't need new bearings. Resizing the rods means cutting the caps a few thou at the parting line and then re-honing the bore to exact stock size. A pretty common step in any rebuild.

 

The only extra fiddle with a Subaru is there is no base bore spec for rods (or mainline for that matter) in the FSM. But I'm sure a machine shop knows where to look for that information, or they can measure a good rod.

 

Maybe for next time, or for someone else in this situation. Unless the rod is seriously overheated from the spun bearing, they should be good for re-use after resizing, checking for square and knocking out the old bushing and fitting and honing a new one.

Ahh I see what your getting at. Upon reading this I cancelled my conrod order and dropped my rods off at the machine shop. My only hope is that they don't charge me more than it would have been to get new rods.

 

You have been of much help to me so far in this rebuild and I wish I had followed your advice before!

[Darth SpecB]

I guess you are almost past the point of buying an assembled OEM SB but this way you get to know the intricacies of the bottom end. Ive done 1 rebuild in 16 years, on a EJ251 out of a 2.5 RS had two spun crank bearings.

 

Seems like you are making progress given the setbacks

 

I am by far way past the point of buying a new shortblock. It was a rather expensive learning experience I should say.

 

Crank bearings spinning is interesting! I assume a line hone was in order including oversized bearings. I will definitely be more prepared if I ever decide to build a race motor, and it was a great experience to tear this motor apart.

 

Many setbacks mostly waiting for parts. I would hope that I'm making progress because there is no turning back at this point! Maybe someone going through similar challenges can learn from my mistakes and make their rebuild much easier. I have already made plans to what minor modifications I will perform after my engine is running smooth including a tune, turbo upgrade, suspension set up etc.

 

 

 

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[GEE-OTTO]

Yeah mine was simple in comparison my local dealer stocked smaller crank bearings, I think mine were .30 smaller than stock and the pistons were bored out 99.75 again a stock OEM item.

 

You have the right idea assemble and run a reliable engine first then spice it up! That 251 is currently boosted running AVO RS 2.5 Turbokit no issues its been 10 years.

[Darth SpecB]

UPDATE:

 

Rods were resized at the machine shop. Everything went in smooth except the piston wrist pins. A little rubber mallet action got it done. Now it seems my rear main seal is in pretty deep. I used the old seal to hammer the new one in. Any input if this will be a problem?

 

 

I have the heads torqued on with arp head studs. I used the 30 60 90ft lbs with factory torque sequence. Now putting on the cam covers I am having a hard time rotating the cams by hand when they are torqued down via 7 ft lbs for front and 14 ft lbs for the other 4.

 

 

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[birkhoff]

The front and rear cams are dowel pinned, but the middle one is not. Work one journal at a time to find out where it is binding. Most likely, the middle cap. You need to snug up the middle cap on the offending cam until is just starts to bind, then tap it with a soft faced hammer up or down (axially?) to align it. Then torque it down to spec.

 

It may take a little fussing to get this right, but you don't want a binding cam. Ideally, the cams will rotate buttery smooth, but a slight resistance is ok. If you have to put the cam gear on to rotate by hand, definitely not!

[birkhoff]

UPDATE:

 

Rods were resized at the machine shop. Everything went in smooth except the piston wrist pins. A little rubber mallet action got it done. Now it seems my rear main seal is in pretty deep. I used the old seal to hammer the new one in. Any input if this will be a problem?

 

...

 

Could you be a little more specific about how the pins felt? Did they hang up on the pistons or on the rods? If they were tight in the rod bushings, I'd be concerned.

 

Did the shop press in new bushings? If so, they should have had the pins on hand to make the final fit.

 

A good pin fit is sometimes described as a light resistance with the thumb. With everything well oiled, it should be smooth all the way.

 

If it were me, I'd pull that seal and put in a new one. Awfully far in. Not clear the inner lip is actually riding on anything and if not, you'll have a major leak. Have a look at your old crank and try to estimate where the seal used to run. Then duplicate that position. There is no shoulder to seat the seal against (as you found out) but mostly you find them a little further in than flush with the outside of the block bore.

 

One way to get the seal out without messing up the crank is to punch two or three holes in the seal with an awl, screw in some long sheet metal screws and then grab them with a slide-hammer-type puller. Going to be hard to get one of those crude seal removers in there. An awl, not a drill, so you don't get chips into the engine.

 

Never had much luck using a seal driver on that big boy. Just get it started, then use light taps with a hammer and a wood block to ease it in perp to the block.

[Darth SpecB]

Could you be a little more specific about how the pins felt? Did they hang up on the pistons or on the rods? If they were tight in the rod bushings, I'd be concerned.

 

Did the shop press in new bushings? If so, they should have had the pins on hand to make the final fit.

 

A good pin fit is sometimes described as a light resistance with the thumb. With everything well oiled, it should be smooth all the way.

 

If it were me, I'd pull that seal and put in a new one. Awfully far in. Not clear the inner lip is actually riding on anything and if not, you'll have a major leak. Have a look at your old crank and try to estimate where the seal used to run. Then duplicate that position. There is no shoulder to seat the seal against (as you found out) but mostly you find them a little further in than flush with the outside of the block bore.

 

One way to get the seal out without messing up the crank is to punch two or three holes in the seal with an awl, screw in some long sheet metal screws and then grab them with a slide-hammer-type puller. Going to be hard to get one of those crude seal removers in there. An awl, not a drill, so you don't get chips into the engine.

 

Never had much luck using a seal driver on that big boy. Just get it started, then use light taps with a hammer and a wood block to ease it in perp to the block.

Well I got the cam covers to sit flush with some wiggling. The cams now turn by hand without sprockets. I also used a thin coat of permatex ultra black for the covers where the FSM indicated.

 

The wrist pins slid right through the connecting rod bushings but getting back through the piston on the other side is where it got hung up. No new bushings were pressed in.

 

The mark on the old crank shows that the main seal was further out just like you said. Unfortunately, I have already torqued on the flywheel so I can start putting on the oil pump. I will order a new seal and it will be a bitch to get off since the engine is on a stand.

 

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[Sgt.Gator]

UPDATE:

 

Rods were resized at the machine shop. Everything went in smooth except the piston wrist pins. A little rubber mallet action got it done. Now it seems my rear main seal is in pretty deep. I used the old seal to hammer the new one in. Any input if this will be a problem?

 

 

I have the heads torqued on with arp head studs. I used the 30 60 90ft lbs with factory torque sequence. Now putting on the cam covers I am having a hard time rotating the cams by hand when they are torqued down via 7 ft lbs for front and 14 ft lbs for the other 4.

 

 

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Your main seal is in way too far, and will surely leak. It's supposed to be even or just barely (1/16") below level.

The fix is to pull the seal out and install a new one. You will ruin this one getting it out.

See multiple threads on this on NASIOC. Here's one with a pic just like yours:

https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=29435820&postcount=13

[Darth SpecB]

I know you guys are disappointed that I didn't get a shot with the pistons in with the arp studs sticking out.

 

Today I set the timing, and bolted down everything I could find. In my excitement I stripped the bolt hole for the coolant crossover pipe. Yes in the aluminum block. I am pretty sad about it. It's in there though and the other 3 bolts are good.

 

 

 

 

I'm looking forward to dropping it in very soon!!

 

 

 

 

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[Colodano]

To offer a bit of advice from my rebuild last year... Fix that bolt now.

 

I had the head snap on one, and figured I would be safe with the other 3, got it all buttoned up and running, and leaking coolant from the side that only had 1 bolt torqued on.

 

Had to pull the intake manifold and all of that off in the car, pull the crossover pipe, drill the old bolt out, tap it, and install new hardware and o-rings again.

 

One dumb thing is the little nub on the bottom of those bolts. Just to ensure I wouldn't bottom that one before it bit good thread, we cut off the nib, and I used loctite just to make sure it stayed...