StkmltS Posted April 6, 2017 Share Posted April 6, 2017 I wonder exactly how much is "too much" metal. Certainly all used oil has traces of metal in it, so how much is too much? My DiySB rebuild Got Misfires? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth SpecB Posted April 6, 2017 Author Share Posted April 6, 2017 My greatest fears... It's hard to see in the photos, but there was a lot of copper micro dust. Definitely not as much as when I first posted but enough to have me worried. I believe now is a good time to state FML. My options as this point are to run the engine until it dies again, risking scoring my crank, cams, journals further. Possibly do a few flushes every 100 miles and hope it goes away. Option 2: rebuild number 2? Possibly with forged pistons this time. Everything was going soo well but life always has to throw me a curve ball. Let me know what you guys think I should do! Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jersdunz Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 Get a gasket kit and some main bearings/ rod bearings etc. It really sucks but change those bearings before the whole build is trashed. I'm sorry to see this happen. You could try to flush the hell out of it. Maybe using the priming method with the weed sprayer bottles. I just don't know if it would get everything by just pushing thru the lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth SpecB Posted April 8, 2017 Author Share Posted April 8, 2017 Get a gasket kit and some main bearings/ rod bearings etc. It really sucks but change those bearings before the whole build is trashed. I'm sorry to see this happen. You could try to flush the hell out of it. Maybe using the priming method with the weed sprayer bottles. I just don't know if it would get everything buy just pushing thru the lines. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk How would you recommend cleaning oil galleys in the heads/block, oil lines, turbo, ocvs? I assume I would need a new oil cooler, and possibly ocvs. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rapture Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 Damn, sick thread Welcome Have you confronted the tech? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Gator Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 Remove your oil filter and cut it open. Inspect the folds. If there is a ton of metal jersdunz has the answer. If the metal is not too bad I personally would re-fill with new oil/filter and run the engine for 20 minutes, then drain and inspect the oil and cut open the filter again. If you still have lots of metal plan on a rebuild. If it's mostly clean I'd drive 100 miles and repeat. Then 500 miles and repeat. If the 100 and 500 are clean you're out of the swamp. That's just me though, YMMV. Nothing like a race track to find the weak points in man and machine. "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birkhoff Posted April 8, 2017 Share Posted April 8, 2017 This is always disappointing. However, I think you should have a game plan before you start tearing into things. What steps in the assembly could have led to this? Otherwise you risk repeating the same outcome. If you are indeed sloughing off bearing material, then something in your assembly program failed. A couple of things come to mind: You had a new, full dimension crankshaft but loaded thicker bearing shells based on your measurements. Is there any chance your measurements were off? You also had some trouble with one or more piston pins. If a pin seized, you may be wiping bearing material off the big end of a rod. I'd continue to monitor for a bit like Sgt.Gator proposed until it is clearer about what is going on. If you find chunks in the filter, most of the rotating parts are toast already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth SpecB Posted April 8, 2017 Author Share Posted April 8, 2017 Damn, sick thread Welcome Have you confronted the tech? Thank you!! I'm not much of a confrontational person besides it might not be entirely his fault, although I would like to think so. Remove your oil filter and cut it open. Inspect the folds. If there is a ton of metal jersdunz has the answer. If the metal is not too bad I personally would re-fill with new oil/filter and run the engine for 20 minutes, then drain and inspect the oil and cut open the filter again. If you still have lots of metal plan on a rebuild. If it's mostly clean I'd drive 100 miles and repeat. Then 500 miles and repeat. If the 100 and 500 are clean you're out of the swamp. That's just me though, YMMV. I will get into cutting the filter tonight. I would have thought flushing the engine initially for 20 minutes the first time would have filtered out any remaining debris, if any. If the filter reveals disaster, I will start ordering main and rod bearings, oil cooler, and possibly ocvs. BTW there is about 600 miles of break in miles on this motor. This is always disappointing. However, I think you should have a game plan before you start tearing into things. What steps in the assembly could have led to this? Otherwise you risk repeating the same outcome. If you are indeed sloughing off bearing material, then something in your assembly program failed. A couple of things come to mind: You had a new, full dimension crankshaft but loaded thicker bearing shells based on your measurements. Is there any chance your measurements were off? You also had some trouble with one or more piston pins. If a pin seized, you may be wiping bearing material off the big end of a rod. I'd continue to monitor for a bit like Sgt.Gator proposed until it is clearer about what is going on. If you find chunks in the filter, most of the rotating parts are toast already. The only step I could think of that I missed was failing to blow out the oil passages in the head before installing. Instead of compressed air, I used brake clean. As well as verifying the AVCS gears were completely cleaned correctly. I highly doubt my measurements were incorrect as I triple checked them. Initially my clearances were .001 too loose. With the "smaller" thicker bearings in place, I verified with plastigauge to make sure they were still within tolerance. The piston wrist pins had almost no resistance sliding through the bushings, however the problem was with getting the pin to seat against the other side of the piston against the c clip. After installing each piston, I turned the crank only to feel minimal to no resistance. There was definitely chunks of bearing found in the drained oil. However no rod knock or engine seizure yet. I am lead to believe my problem has something to do with oil contamination. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth SpecB Posted April 10, 2017 Author Share Posted April 10, 2017 Double checked my oil pressure readings today. At cold start running 5w30 I'm getting 100psi. Dropped to 40 psi for hot idle. Pulled the filter apart, I found barely any evidence of bearing failure. I might just be freaking out because I'm not used to seeing glitter in my oil pan. It seems what I observed is just piston ring material wearing in. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jersdunz Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 Double checked my oil pressure readings today. At cold start running 5w30 I'm getting 100psi. Dropped to 40 psi for hot idle. Pulled the filter apart, I found barely any evidence of bearing failure. I might just be freaking out because I'm not used to seeing glitter in my oil pan. It seems what I observed is just piston ring material wearing in. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk VADER I'm rooting for you!! I hope that is all you have to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Gator Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 I'd drive it for 100, but no more than 500 miles. Drain the oil, catching a sample and send to Blackstone Labs for analysis. Cut the filter open and inspect. If your visual of the filter and Blackstone's analysis come back good you're in the clear. http://www.blackstone-labs.com/ Nothing like a race track to find the weak points in man and machine. "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth SpecB Posted April 10, 2017 Author Share Posted April 10, 2017 VADER I'm rooting for you!! I hope that is all you have to deal with. Thank you!! I'd drive it for 100, but no more than 500 miles. Drain the oil, catching a sample and send to Blackstone Labs for analysis. Cut the filter open and inspect. If your visual of the filter and Blackstone's analysis come back good you're in the clear. http://www.blackstone-labs.com/ I plan on doing this most definitely! I was surprised how my filter looked. Fairly clean.That glitter is some scary stuff! Still can't seem to shake that P0852 code though!! This mornings engine oil pressure readings: Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth SpecB Posted April 10, 2017 Author Share Posted April 10, 2017 I have calculated the approximate total cost of the build. Keep in mind this does not include the tools that I already had, and the many hours of labor that I put in. Build List: Master Gasket Kit $250 STI Oil Pump $125 Oil Cooler $200 King Performance Main/Rod Bearings $100 NPR STI Piston Rings $100 STI Heat Treated Crankshaft $300 Aisin Timing Belt Kit $250 OEM Oil Control Valves $200 ARP Head Studs $200 Moroso Oil Pickup $100 Flex Hone $60 Rebuilt Heads With New Seals/Buckets $400 Oil + Oil Filters $150 Miscellaneous $100 Total Cost = $2560 Now I'm broke, but I love Nisrina! Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jersdunz Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 I have calculated the approximate total cost of the build. Keep in mind this does not include the tools that I already had, and the many hours of labor that I put in. Build List: Master Gasket Kit $250 STI Oil Pump $125 Oil Cooler $200 King Performance Main/Rod Bearings $100 NPR STI Piston Rings $100 STI Heat Treated Crankshaft $300 Aisin Timing Belt Kit $250 OEM Oil Control Valves $200 ARP Head Studs $200 Moroso Oil Pickup $100 Flex Hone $60 Rebuilt Heads With New Seals/Buckets $400 Oil + Oil Filters $150 Miscellaneous $100 Total Cost = $2560 Now I'm broke, but I love Nisrina! Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk Oh my, I'm so jealous, in the last couple of weeks I have created two excel files that I'm now using to track my to do list, and completed and incomplete cost sheet. My project has already hit me for over 8400 & is looking to be close to 12000 if I go for the whole list. It'll definitely be a few more months. If you decide to do some heavier mods--- ready that budget...lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Gator Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 I have calculated the approximate total cost of the build. Keep in mind this does not include the tools that I already had, and the many hours of labor that I put in. Build List: Master Gasket Kit $250 STI Oil Pump $125 Oil Cooler $200 King Performance Main/Rod Bearings $100 NPR STI Piston Rings $100 STI Heat Treated Crankshaft $300 Aisin Timing Belt Kit $250 OEM Oil Control Valves $200 ARP Head Studs $200 Moroso Oil Pickup $100 Flex Hone $60 Rebuilt Heads With New Seals/Buckets $400 Oil + Oil Filters $150 Miscellaneous $100 Total Cost = $2560 Now I'm broke, but I love Nisrina! Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk I don't see a rebuilt or new turbo on here. Did you not do that? Nothing like a race track to find the weak points in man and machine. "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth SpecB Posted April 10, 2017 Author Share Posted April 10, 2017 Oh my, I'm so jealous, in the last couple of weeks I have created two excel files that I'm now using to track my to do list, and completed and incomplete cost sheet. My project has already hit me for over 8400 & is looking to be close to 12000 if I go for the whole list. It'll definitely be a few more months. If you decide to do some heavier mods--- ready that budget...lol 12k jeez! I hope that thing is gonna pushing some serious powa lol. I'd like to see that build list. I'm gonna wait a year or two and hopefully the prices for mods drop down, then I can catch up to ya. I don't see a rebuilt or new turbo on here. Did you not do that? Yup, you caught me. While the turbo was off I checked the shaft play on the compressor and turbine sides. I had zero play. Also no waste gate cracks or oil leaks. I did put 600 miles on this turbo, it was supposedly brand new. It pulls fine however I have not checked how much I'm boosting yet since I avoided boost for the first 500 miles. I'll be using this turbo until I can save up for a VF52! Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birkhoff Posted April 11, 2017 Share Posted April 11, 2017 What did your oil look like when you dumped it after first startup? I don't recall you mentioning any metal in it. If that is the case, and now you are seeing some, that isn't consistent with washing out metal particles left in the system pre-rebuild. 40 PSI at hot idle sounds awfully high. I'm sure the pump can produce that pressure, but not at the volume you would normally push around. Do a couple of oil changes and monitor the contamination. Glitter usually means bearings, not rings or cylinder walls. I don't think you need oil analysis to differentiate that scenario. If the oil clears up, then you could get some peace of mind with lab analysis. Keeping my fingers crossed, but as you see, I'm still thinking some kind of bearing clearance issue is lurking. I really hope NOT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth SpecB Posted April 11, 2017 Author Share Posted April 11, 2017 When I flushed oil after the initial 20 minute idle the oil came out looking like how it went in. Surprisingly with barely anything resembling assembly lube. Honey color, not too hot to the touch. It was about 65F that day. Now I am realizing that I did not fully clean out the catch pan I used which gunk grease deposits that most likely held in a lot of the previous bearing material. At my 500 MI oil change, the oil was hot enough to almost burn my hand. Which I believe melted that grease in the pan down, exposing the old bearing material, and making me scared to death. I will be sure to use a clean pan for the next oil change. My measured clearances for the mains were .001 for 1-4 and .0015 for thrust bearing. Which is well within the 4 tenths to 12 tenths range, closer to the open side, which is why I'm running 5w30. This is with the case torqued down to spec to take into account bearing crush which i learned from Birkhoff the man himself! The rods came out around .0015 +/- a tenth. I verified my measurements with plastigauge. Everything checked out. I was super meticulous about getting the clearances right. By the 500 MI oil change I noticed more assembly lube then my previous flush, possibly from the heat cycles. Assembly lube might have some of this glittery stuff in it, but I'm not sure because it was black when It was applied. I have read other threads of some people having light "glitter" in their oil for up to 3 changes. Which some believe are piston rings braking in to the new hone. Which takes the appearance of copper material since it's covered in oil. Also, most with super tight out of tolerance clearances don't make it past the 100 mile mark. Yes I agree my 40 psi is pretty high pressure. My engine was not completely hot when this was measured so it may have dropped down to 30 if I had idled it for more than 15-20 minutes. I was more so looking for evidence of lower pressure incase my bearings really did get worn down causing the clearances to open up. Keep in mind I am running a 1mm bigger oil pump. However I am not ruling out the possibility that I may in fact have a bearing issue due to improper clearances or oil contamination. So I most definitely will monitor the oil and get a Blackstone lab sample assessed. I'll pray to the oil gods that it comes out "clean" the next time around! Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Gator Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 I hope you get lucky with your turbo. A lot of folks here have learned thru hard knocks that if you blow metal thru your motor and rebuild it you should rebuild or get a new turbo. The reason being that the metal in the blown engine went thru the turbo damaging it even though it seems ok. Then a few thousand miles or less it let's go in and blows metal thru the oil into your engine. Now you're rebuilding the engine again. It's SOP to replace your turbo or have JMP rebuild it when rebuilding an engine due to metal bits in oil failure. Nothing like a race track to find the weak points in man and machine. "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birkhoff Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 Leftover metal in a dirty drain pan would be a perfect solution! I know you took the time and got the tools to get the bearings right. And you were smart to check with plastigauge -- even professionals sometimes get caught out with their calculations. So you have every reason to be confident in your clearances. If the next oil change comes up clean, then you are good to go. With this new twist, I'd be wanting to dump the current oil ASAP and see if you discovered the source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jersdunz Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 What are the collectives thoughts on this.. https://m.summitracing.com/parts/ear-230304erl?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-earls-performance&gclid=CjwKEAjwoLfHBRD_jLW93remyAQSJABIygGpyk2Z3UHR2kT5_pal2_TipJfFicHVkjNGmG8Jp2QvMxoCqA3w_wcB Darth get one of these under your turbo. And check it weekly. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StkmltS Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 Talk about a sense of relief! (hopefully) Next time you change your oil, use a clean glass jar to catch some of the oil as it drains from the motor. Also, wipe down the area around the drain plug before you unscrew it. That way you'll know exactly what your oil looks like without having to wonder if it's dirty for some other reason. My DiySB rebuild Got Misfires? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Gator Posted April 12, 2017 Share Posted April 12, 2017 What are the collectives thoughts on this.. https://m.summitracing.com/parts/ear-230304erl?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-google-_-shopping-_-srese1-_-earls-performance&gclid=CjwKEAjwoLfHBRD_jLW93remyAQSJABIygGpyk2Z3UHR2kT5_pal2_TipJfFicHVkjNGmG8Jp2QvMxoCqA3w_wcB Darth get one of these under your turbo. And check it weekly. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk I have that One.. I'll be glad to sell it to you! That listing is inaccurate by a mile. It says it's 140 microns, it's not, it's 900 microns. Here's the direct link to Earl's and I can confirm the screen is huge in mine: https://www.holley.com/products/plumbing_an_fittings_and_hose/cooling_systems/oil_filters/parts/230304ERL The problem is the screen is way too large to be of any benefit for the turbo. 900 microns is larger than beach sand! It's only useful as a screen between a Dry Sump pan and a DS scavenge pump. But not for engines/turbos. You need to be down around 100-150 microns. I've thought about this one, or building my own equivalent, but it means you have to check it constantly because if it plugs up your turbo will be toast just like the Subaru OEM Banjo filter issue. http://www.ebay.com/itm/170797783756?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT Nothing like a race track to find the weak points in man and machine. "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth SpecB Posted April 13, 2017 Author Share Posted April 13, 2017 Is there a way of verifying the turbo is good or not? I will be purchasing a VF52 in the near future. Leftover metal in a dirty drain pan would be a perfect solution! I know you took the time and got the tools to get the bearings right. And you were smart to check with plastigauge -- even professionals sometimes get caught out with their calculations. So you have every reason to be confident in your clearances. If the next oil change comes up clean, then you are good to go. With this new twist, I'd be wanting to dump the current oil ASAP and see if you discovered the source. I plan on dumping the oil tmrw. I will post photos of the oil and filter. Talk about a sense of relief! (hopefully) Next time you change your oil, use a clean glass jar to catch some of the oil as it drains from the motor. Also, wipe down the area around the drain plug before you unscrew it. That way you'll know exactly what your oil looks like without having to wonder if it's dirty for some other reason. A good idea. I will put some oil in a jar. Hopefully not as much glittery stuff as last time! I have that One.. I'll be glad to sell it to you! That listing is inaccurate by a mile. It says it's 140 microns, it's not, it's 900 microns. Here's the direct link to Earl's and I can confirm the screen is huge in mine: https://www.holley.com/products/plumbing_an_fittings_and_hose/cooling_systems/oil_filters/parts/230304ERL The problem is the screen is way too large to be of any benefit for the turbo. 900 microns is larger than beach sand! It's only useful as a screen between a Dry Sump pan and a DS scavenge pump. But not for engines/turbos. You need to be down around 100-150 microns. I've thought about this one, or building my own equivalent, but it means you have to check it constantly because if it plugs up your turbo will be toast just like the Subaru OEM Banjo filter issue. http://www.ebay.com/itm/170797783756?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT I'm not quite sure how this filter works. Does it attach to the hard line? Would I need a new turbo oil feed line? I like the idea of having filtration to the turbo. I will keep this in mind. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jersdunz Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 I have that One.. I'll be glad to sell it to you! That listing is inaccurate by a mile. It says it's 140 microns, it's not, it's 900 microns. Here's the direct link to Earl's and I can confirm the screen is huge in mine: https://www.holley.com/products/plumbing_an_fittings_and_hose/cooling_systems/oil_filters/parts/230304ERL The problem is the screen is way too large to be of any benefit for the turbo. 900 microns is larger than beach sand! It's only useful as a screen between a Dry Sump pan and a DS scavenge pump. But not for engines/turbos. You need to be down around 100-150 microns. I've thought about this one, or building my own equivalent, but it means you have to check it constantly because if it plugs up your turbo will be toast just like the Subaru OEM Banjo filter issue. http://www.ebay.com/itm/170797783756?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT Everything has to be too good to be true.. Of course Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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