2009 SpecB First Rebuild

[Darth SpecB]

I did it without a hone, but used two sets of mains and a bore gauge. As far as I know, there is only one oversize bearing genearlly available, from ACL. STD and + 0.025 mm. I had to mix shells to get consistent clearances with a used crankshaft.

 

If you are considering a long distance line hone, contact Outfront. They have a source on a thicker back bearing so can open up the line a little bit without losing centre. Price is about what you are quoted I believe, excluding bearings.

 

How did you take into account bearing crush? Did you load the bearings, torque down, then measure? If so I may invest in a bore gauge and mic if I can find a sweet deal on amazon. Would a gauge that reads 0.0005 be accurate enough? (Half ten thousands) I have a new crank, but I assume I would still have to measure those journals. Unless they correspond with the markings.

 

Ourfront is a 6 hour drive from Bay Area so if I end up needing a line hone, I will probably end up back at Napa.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[birkhoff]

How did you take into account bearing crush? Did you load the bearings, torque down, then measure? If so I may invest in a bore gauge and mic if I can find a sweet deal on amazon. Would a gauge that reads 0.0005 be accurate enough? (Half ten thousands) I have a new crank, but I assume I would still have to measure those journals. Unless they correspond with the markings.

 

Ourfront is a 6 hour drive from Bay Area so if I end up needing a line hone, I will probably end up back at Napa.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

 

Exactly as you say. The thin web journals on #2 and 4 crush more. There is not much you can do about it. Also, keep in mind the bores are likely to be pounded oval anyway, so you are not really starting from a good base circle supporting the new shell. It is not possible to pre-calculate where you will end up on each journal without a lot of experience. Easier to bolt 'er up and measure. Then adjust accordingly.

 

0.0005 is 5 tenths and running clearance target is 4 tenths to 12 tenths. Seems like 8-12 tenths is a reasonable target, but a gauge that only reads to 5 tenths will be a challenge. Not hard to find one that does 0.0001 or better, but the real problem is managing temps and cleanliness at those tolerances. If you decide to line bore, let the experts do the measuring and hand it back to you.

[birkhoff]

What would be the downside to reusing pistons with new rings? They are already properly sized to the individual bores. I have inspected them and there are no cracked ringlands.

 

 

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

 

Indulge me while I wax profligate on the upsides. What other turbocharged engine do you know where you can buy new slugs for $25 a pop? Plus they look so pretty when everything is back together with freshly decked case halves. They go up and down, and up again, catching the light just so; it's almost heart stopping. You'll feel very clever for a day or so

 

Trust me, you don't want to miss that part.

 

More objectively, the time it takes to clean, inspect and measure the old pistons makes $25 look like a bargain. Plus, you get new skirt coatings (important for the break-in phase), you can select the grade for the (actual) bore you expect to have after honing and you don't have to worry about some hidden crack spoiling your new build.

 

Finally, and this is more philosophy than objectivity, there is going to be a lot of time and money into this project when you finally fire it up. If something is not right at that point, you really don't want to be waking up in the middle of the night wondering if you missed some hairline crack on one of those pistons. Look over StmkltS's thread for more discussions about this.

 

If a new piston set was $500, I'd be all aboard the recycling bandwagon. But that is not the situation. Buy the 'new' pistons and thank all those who are buying modified/built new short blocks for doing you a favour.

[StkmltS]

What would be the downside to reusing pistons with new rings? They are already properly sized to the individual bores. I have inspected them and there are no cracked ringlands.

The downside is that almsot everything about your motor would be new except the pistons (don't worry about your rods, they'll be fine). $100 isn't chump change to me, but considering the total cost it's a very minor expense for the huge amount of piece of mind it brings. I had my pistons FPI'd (link here) and I still bought new pistons. After you think about your situation for a while you'll probably come to the same conclusion as birkhoff and myself. Don't forget to look back to your original plan. Getting new OEM pistons is only a small performance compromise vs forged pistons (insert huge internet argument here), but it's tons better than reusing old pistons. The cost is so low that it's hard to justify reusing old ones.

 

However, I will give you ZERO shame if you do reuse your old pistons

Look at my rebuild, I did some seriously shady stuff. Consider the risk/reward and then move forward.

 

 

UPDATE:

Has anyone been able to fit bearings correctly without a line hone? Assuming I might get lucky and my main bores are in spec, wouldn't it be more logical to use 2-3 sets of mains to get the clearances I need? I would rather pay the 300 for different sets of mains if this is possible.

 

I didn't need a line hone, and I'd bet money that you won't either.

Buy a std set of bearings and some plastigage and see what you get. The important thing to remember is that you're not building a car to run up Pike's Peak as fast as possible. You'll be absolutely fine if a few things inside you're motor are only 99% perfect. 100% in-tolerance is ideal, but sometimes we have to live in reality. You're rebuilding your motor in your garage (like I did) and there comes a time when you need to accept less than perfect. I'm an engineer in the aerospace industry and it's really, really hard for me to say that. Still, in our situation its the truth.

[Darth SpecB]

I will consider new oem pistons, with the holiday season coming up, I cannot guarantee shiny new ones. However I will keep that in mind, depending on my damage for this Christmas.

 

UPDATE:

 

I have ordered a standard set of XPG mains and rods from King. Until then I cannot measure bores sufficiently.

 

I did get around to mic'ing the crank.

 

Mains:

 

M1 2.3614

M2 2.3615

M3 2.3615

M4 2.3614

M5 2.3614

 

Connecting Rods

 

R1 2.0459

R2 2.0459

R3 2.0460

R4 2.0460

 

All measurements were taken in thousandths of an inch to the "tenth"

 

 

 

Sent from a galaxy far far away...

[birkhoff]

Those numbers are coming from a new crankshaft, right? I can't imagine getting consistency to a tenth on the one in your pictures with the wiped journals!

 

Even for a new item, that is pretty darn good. Did you check for out of round? It's going to be close enough, but I'm curious.

 

Stock rods on a new crank with new STD bearings will be within spec. The crush with steel on steel is low and controllable. I'd just have your rods resized and go with it.

 

If you have the time, you can 'calculate' crush in advance with your old bearings. Measure the mainline bores, measure shell thickness with a ball mic, load the shells and remeasure with the case torqued and bearings in. The difference will be your crush number, and it isn't going to change much with new bearings.

 

But all this takes time.

 

I'm not aware that King sells anything with a slightly thicker shell.

[Darth SpecB]

Those numbers are coming from a new crankshaft, right? I can't imagine getting consistency to a tenth on the one in your pictures with the wiped journals!

 

Even for a new item, that is pretty darn good. Did you check for out of round? It's going to be close enough, but I'm curious.

 

Stock rods on a new crank with new STD bearings will be within spec. The crush with steel on steel is low and controllable. I'd just have your rods resized and go with it.

 

If you have the time, you can 'calculate' crush in advance with your old bearings. Measure the mainline bores, measure shell thickness with a ball mic, load the shells and remeasure with the case torqued and bearings in. The difference will be your crush number, and it isn't going to change much with new bearings.

 

But all this takes time.

 

I'm not aware that King sells anything with a slightly thicker shell.

 

Yes this was measured on a brand new heat treated crank from the factory. The old journals were failing the finger nail test on every journal even the mains.

 

I did check for out of round and the "feel" was consistent +/- a tenth.

 

I will be using Manley H-Beam Rods.

 

Unfortunately I do not have access to a ball mic so I guess I will have to wait a week or so for the new bearings to come in. I appreciate the in depth step by step process. [emoji4]

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[birkhoff]

You can make a ball mic from a regular one for a few cents.

 

Get a 1/4 inch ball bearing. Bike stores are good for this. Slip a piece of heat shrink tubing over it, and then over the spindle on your 0-1 inch mic. Shrink the tube and let everything cool down. Check your zero, which should read 0.2500. Ball bearings are crazy accurate.

[Darth SpecB]

UPDATE

 

Got the pistons all cleaned up. It took about 8 hours of scrubbing.

 

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161206/691a68fd1330248675027f52799d87c4.jpg

 

I also got my king bearings. Mains are in the block and torqued to 36ft lbs, I used a 6 in extension. I wasn't sure which way the thrust bearing went in because it fit either way, so I lined up the K logos on the same side.

 

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161206/23194497c54a81f8109810d197c78627.jpg

 

It will be a few days until I can get a hold of a bore gauge... fingers are crossed, hopefully I don't need a second set...

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[birkhoff]

Eight hours! Better you than me is all I can say.

 

36 ft lbs is about right. FWIW, I found the measurements I got to be quite sensitive to torque on the big case bolts. I followed the FSM exactly and if I stopped short of the final 90 degree step I got something different. So I stopped doing that.

 

I had the case apart maybe 5 or 6 times before I was ready for final assembly and used the FSM multistep sequence each time. You get pretty fast at is after a while

 

Also, I was incorrect when I said King doesn't make a +.026 shell. It seems they do in the race series you are using. I had been trying to locate them in a different line -- that's one reason why I went to ACL. It is a hard thing to do, to buy two sets and then bin half of them. You may decide it is worth it. Or, pick up a second short block and rebuild it with the spares!

 

Joking . . . . not really . . .

[StkmltS]

8 hours!! They look pretty good. What did you use to get them clean?

 

FWIW if you ever do it again... I bought a cheap blast gun, baking soda, built a blast cabinet, and cleaned my pistons in less than 8 hours.

 

I think I put my mains in the same as you did. When I did mine I thought I ordered the wrong set because the King bearings don't have tangs in them like the OEM ones did. I read up a little on the tang-vs-no-tang subject until I felt comfortable and then I slapped 'em in.

[GEE-OTTO]

biggest fear of buying another LGT is what you described I fear the dealer more b/c they only have one goal get the grenade off their lot ASAP. At least you are mechanically inclined and I hope you got a deal on the car or are now planning to keep it for for ever to pay you back for a new engine.

 

Do you wish you regret not buying an assembled SB and reusing your heads and accessories?

 

nice write up!

[Darth SpecB]

8 hours!! They look pretty good. What did you use to get them clean?

 

FWIW if you ever do it again... I bought a cheap blast gun, baking soda, built a blast cabinet, and cleaned my pistons in less than 8 hours.

 

I think I put my mains in the same as you did. When I did mine I thought I ordered the wrong set because the King bearings don't have tangs in them like the OEM ones did. I read up a little on the tang-vs-no-tang subject until I felt comfortable and then I slapped 'em in.

 

I used some Scotch Brite pads, a steel brush for the valve inserts, and simple green the purple stuff.

 

A blast booth would be the way to go, if I ever had to do it again.

 

My mains did come with tangs. This is the first time I have seen black bearings as well.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[Darth SpecB]

biggest fear of buying another LGT is what you described I fear the dealer more b/c they only have one goal get the grenade off their lot ASAP. At least you are mechanically inclined and I hope you got a deal on the car or are now planning to keep it for for ever to pay you back for a new engine.

 

Do you wish you regret not buying an assembled SB and reusing your heads and accessories?

 

nice write up!

 

Thank you! Yes I plan on keeping her forever [emoji4]

 

Let's just say I got what I paid for.

 

Well seeing as there was nothing wrong with my heads, I did not see a problem reusing them. A new shortblock would have been ideal. I would have spent a little less, but I also wouldn't have been able to tear apart the block to see how everything comes together. I'm "upgrading" rods, bearings. Im not a big fan of throwing away a block that is still "good". Do I regret it? No. Would I do it again? Probably not because I expect this block to last lol. But if something were to blow up again I would probably go shortblock route to avoid the extra hassle, unless I had spare time.

 

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[birkhoff]

You'll want to tear down the heads, clean them up and face them, then reassemble and reset your valve lash at the very least. The banjo filters may have kept the metal out of the AVCS system, but there is full flow oil to the cam bearings and a wash of contaminated oil over the buckets etc. You absolutely don't want to restart with the possibility of washing leftover metal from the heads back through the engine.

 

Cam journals run on aluminum, so expect bores to be a little scored and maybe the journals too, if metal embedded in aluminum. Bores can be cleaned up by cutting the caps and a light hone if not too bad.

[Darth SpecB]

You'll want to tear down the heads, clean them up and face them, then reassemble and reset your valve lash at the very least. The banjo filters may have kept the metal out of the AVCS system, but there is full flow oil to the cam bearings and a wash of contaminated oil over the buckets etc. You absolutely don't want to restart with the possibility of washing leftover metal from the heads back through the engine.

 

Cam journals run on aluminum, so expect bores to be a little scored and maybe the journals too, if metal embedded in aluminum. Bores can be cleaned up by cutting the caps and a light hone if not too bad.

I had the heads rebuilt at my local machine shop. They were hot tanked. I will be sure to use compressed air to get out any remaining junk in the oil galleys.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[Darth SpecB]

Measured clearances were taken at 3&9 O clock.

 

Mains:

 

M1- .002

M2- .002

M3- .002

M4- .002

M5- .0025 (thrust bearing)

 

These seem pretty lose considering the factory spec is .0004-.0012

 

The question is should I run higher viscosity oil? IE 5w40-10w40 or 50weight? Or should I look around for .001 undersized (tighter) bearings? Keep in mind I will be using a 11mm oil pump.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[birkhoff]

Measured clearances were taken at 3&9 O clock.

 

Mains:

 

M1- .002

M2- .002

M3- .002

M4- .002

M5- .0025 (thrust bearing)

 

These seem pretty lose considering the factory spec is .0004-.0012

 

The question is should I run higher viscosity oil? IE 5w40-10w40 or 50weight? Or should I look around for .001 undersized (tighter) bearings? Keep in mind I will be using a 11mm oil pump.

 

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

 

Yes, that is pretty loose. On my rebuild I ended up at 12, 13, 14, 16, 14 in tenths. I was curious what the oil pressure would be with all the mains opened up beyond spec, but it is ok. I get about 18psi at hot idle with 10W30. I was reusing the old crank so it was a lot of fiddling to hit even this close. With a new crank, you are way ahead of me in terms of consistency.

 

You have two options here. You could put in a half shell all the way down the line and end up at 0.0015 (except for the thrust position, where it looks like you should use a full +0.025 shell to hit that spec). That is if you prefer to keep things a little open.

 

If it were me, I'd just run them all to a full oversize shell on all journals. That will bring you to 10 tenths down the line, except the thrust bearing at 15. The cost will be the same, given that you need a full set of oversize mains to do either.

 

If your starting measurements are accurate (did you use a bore gauge, or is this estimated from plastigage? Torque to spec? Measurements perp to parting line; that is how I interpret 3&9 o-clock, with the block flat on the bench) then changes from here on are pretty predictable.

[Darth SpecB]

Yes, that is pretty loose. On my rebuild I ended up at 12, 13, 14, 16, 14 in tenths. I was curious what the oil pressure would be with all the mains opened up beyond spec, but it is ok. I get about 18psi at hot idle with 10W30. I was reusing the old crank so it was a lot of fiddling to hit even this close. With a new crank, you are way ahead of me in terms of consistency.

 

You have two options here. You could put in a half shell all the way down the line and end up at 0.0015 (except for the thrust position, where it looks like you should use a full +0.025 shell to hit that spec). That is if you prefer to keep things a little open.

 

If it were me, I'd just run them all to a full oversize shell on all journals. That will bring you to 10 tenths down the line, except the thrust bearing at 15. The cost will be the same, given that you need a full set of oversize mains to do either.

 

If your starting measurements are accurate (did you use a bore gauge, or is this estimated from plastigage? Torque to spec? Measurements perp to parting line; that is how I interpret 3&9 o-clock, with the block flat on the bench) then changes from here on are pretty predictable.

 

I have ordered these "tighter" main bearings which I believe are undersized. They are suppose to be .001" tighter which would bring me to 10 tenths from 1-4 and 15 tenths on the thrust.

 

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161212/3095c79c17f27349fe688117feb25722.jpg

 

I used a bore gauge but this gauge was reading down to 5 tenths. I tried with the 36ft lb torque as well as the factory torque spec including 90 degree and 20nm. The measurements came out the same. And yes with the block flat on a bench I measured perpendicular from the parting line.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[birkhoff]

If you use both shells in the +0.026 oversize, you will indeed end up 0.001 tighter just like you plan. That will make a very nice mainline, and well worth the trouble. Now you can run whatever oil you want, and even leave the pump alone.

 

If you didn't mark up the previous bearing set too much with the gauge, then you can always sell them.

 

I think buying a new crank like you did is an excellent idea for these engines even if the old one looks ok. By the time we rebuild at 120 - 180 K or so, the old crank is out of spec enough to cause a lot of extra fussing around trying to hit these tight clearances. You could grind it undersize, but then that costs quite a bit too. At around $350 for a new factory crankshaft, think of it as bargain that really simplifies and improves the rebuild.

[Darth SpecB]

If you use both shells in the +0.026 oversize, you will indeed end up 0.001 tighter just like you plan. That will make a very nice mainline, and well worth the trouble. Now you can run whatever oil you want, and even leave the pump alone.

 

If you didn't mark up the previous bearing set too much with the gauge, then you can always sell them.

 

I think buying a new crank like you did is an excellent idea for these engines even if the old one looks ok. By the time we rebuild at 120 - 180 K or so, the old crank is out of spec enough to cause a lot of extra fussing around trying to hit these tight clearances. You could grind it undersize, but then that costs quite a bit too. At around $350 for a new factory crankshaft, think of it as bargain that really simplifies and improves the rebuild.

 

I'm still having problems understanding the difference between undersized and oversized. From what I read undersized bearings have added thickness on the surface facing the crank side. Oversize has added thickness on the surface facing the bore. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

The plan is to use the ordered bearings to maintain a level rotating crank with minimal imbalance. I will be using the 11mm pump regardless since that is what I have.

 

Selling the bearings has come across my mind, but if no one is willing to buy then I will save for a possible built block.

 

I would highly recommend purchasing a new crank. I got mine for 301$ shipped. Much better than taking material off, it would probably cost around the same. The heat treated cranks are machined pretty well and my measurements back up that statement.

 

 

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[birkhoff]

 

Selling the bearings has come across my mind, but if no one is willing to buy then I will save for a possible built block.

 

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

 

^^^^^ That! I said this could lead to trouble . . .

 

The terminology oversize/undersize does not seem to be consistent. It may depend on whether you are the manufacturer, the user, or somewhere in between. If there is a machinist on the forum, maybe they can add some clarity.

 

What I know is that when a bearing for Subaru is listed as +.026 that means a thicker bearing (oversize?) to match a smaller journal (undersize?). During my rebuild I checked with a ball mic at the grade point and the shell was indeed .013 mm thicker.

[Darth SpecB]

UPDATE

 

I got the Manley Rods torqued to 45ft lbs on the crank. I used 5w30 oil on the threads. ARP 2000 3/8 bolts. I used King standard size rod bearings. I got .0015" oil clearance on all 4 rods according to plastigauge. Didn't take any photos yet but I will soon have some up.

 

The piston rings I ordered were for an EJ22! [emoji37] [emoji35] I have submitted a return request hoping to exchange, or purchase new ones. I found this out when I noticed the compressed ring gap was about 1/4 inch... wasted 50$ plus my time. If anyone has a link for a good deal on some NPR rings, please let me know.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[Max Capacity]

Contact msprank for the rings, PM him, or www.infamousperformance.net He's in CA and is someone your going to want to get to know.

[StkmltS]

Here are the NPR rings I used (ebay), but from a different seller. These are even in CA so you'd get 'em quick.

 

*edit* link corrected