Cam's Eternally Broken LGT Oil Cannon

[cSlenker802]

So here's an update for this week:

 

Got stir crazy on Thursday and threw an old tensioner and belt on. Counted teeth this time and everything went smoothly (getting some practice doing timing belts at least. Went to pi intercooler on and dropped a bolt into the ic side of the turbo. Swore A LOT. Brought a magnet wand in today (Friday) and fished it out. With ic air box etc on but no alternator, i tried to start it. Sounded even more promising but still no go.

 

Now here's where things get interesting...

 

Did a compression test per request of instructor. Could not get any sort of reading at all on the left side (cyl 1+3) concluded that was the no start cause. To rule out wear of the rings + possible bent valves again i leaked it down. Got 0% all around again so at least that's good.

 

So i am now thinking those earlier mentioned dowel pins are off. All the timing marks line up perfect and teeth are dead on. I'm obviously taking the belt off again Monday of next week and will investigate. Timings clearly the issue so that's all i can imagine. More to come next week

[xt2005bonbon]

Man, that's a though one..

[Max Capacity]

Sounds like your on the right path. I'm in Ludlow this weekend at Okemo.

[cSlenker802]

On the bright side it gives me time for more of my parts to come in...got a sweet deal on a new inlet and TB hose so i went all in and an got new vac hose, pcv, etc to put on while i have the intake mani off.

 

just never ends with this car lol good chunk of its my errors but stuff like dropping that bolt...thats just shitty luck.

 

Hopefully i can get this all straightened out next week. I'm praying i won't need new cam gears but if i really had the dowel pin off but I'm prepared for the worst.

 

... Maybe I'll paint my coolant crossover pipe while the intakes off

[birkhoff]

Leak down good but no compression on RH bank. Hmmm.

 

I've never heard of a leak down at 0%, but maybe. Are you sure about this test?

 

Valve timing off by a few degrees would normally cause low compression, not `nothing'. I'm guessing your conclusion is there was something wrong with the compression test setup, not that you actually have zero compression.

 

Valve timing off by a lot of degrees would crash the valves, most likely. Then you'd have zero compression! But also >90% leak down loss.

 

If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't start installing any new parts until you get things back to where you were before you pulled the timing gear off. Everything you touch that you don't have to has the potential to introduce some confounding symptoms when you do get it running.

 

Why is your intake off?

[cSlenker802]

Leak down good but no compression on RH bank. Hmmm.

 

I've never heard of a leak down at 0%, but maybe. Are you sure about this test?

 

Valve timing off by a few degrees would normally cause low compression, not `nothing'. I'm guessing your conclusion is there was something wrong with the compression test setup, not that you actually have zero compression.

 

Valve timing off by a lot of degrees would crash the valves, most likely. Then you'd have zero compression! But also >90% leak down loss.

 

If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't start installing any new parts until you get things back to where you were before you pulled the timing gear off. Everything you touch that you don't have to has the potential to introduce some confounding symptoms when you do get it running.

 

Why is your intake off?

 

I would agree something was up with the compression test...For starters the battery was nearly dead and even with a jump pack hooked up was cranking the starter very slow for some reason. At one point I was able to get it to crank over quickly and got to about 80psi on cyl 3. Then it went back to cranking slow and compression dropped without being released.

 

And for the leak down I am sure the test was done correctly. Found top dead in each cylinder and pressurized up to 90 psi. Was able to get about 5% leak in each but then by slowly adjusting the crank I was able to get down to damn near 0%. Is this where I went wrong?

 

And yes obviously I need the car running before installing any other new parts. I am going to figure out the timing first but then I can take the time with the inlet. The intake manifold being off is a funny story. Luckily I didn't have it completely off, just everything unbolted. Because I dropped the bolt in the turbo I panicked and could figure out how to get it out. We didn't have a magnetic wand or anything in the shop and I honestly didnt think of that. So the plan was to pull the turbo off in an attempt to dump it out ...VERY GLAD I never made it that far because it sounds like a horrible idea explaing it now

[cSlenker802]

So got to class today and pulled the gears. Did another comp test all around and still got nothing on the passenger bank (1+3). Went to the driver side and got about 65 on both 2 and 4. Then moved on to the gears. Started with the right (driver side) and immediately noticed oil leaking from outside the metal housing. Pulled it off and I belive it may have been one cutout to the right or left. Couldn't tell for sure but due to the oil leak I believe something was off. Tried to misalign the gear on purpose and it is deffinatly possible to get it on the wrong cutout. The went to the left side.

 

This is where things got ugly. The gear was difficult to get off and when I managed to get it off it was clearly wrong. For starters the dowel pin no longer exists. Pushed fully into the shaft. I have pictures I'll try and upload tonight but it's ugly. I can see on the sprocket where it was sitting and it appears to be just about 180 degrees off...

 

So clearly I need a new driver side sprocket. And a new passenger cam shaft. The cam shaft was long overdue since a previous mechanic stripped out the thread for the cam bolts so I couldn't get full torque on it any way. Now here's my question for you guys. Should I just buy a new cam shaft? I assume I will need to get new buckets and redo my valve lash... What else? Would I just be better off buying all new heads and having them around for parts? In case I get the new cam shaft in and find the valves are fucked now that it's correctly in time??

 

Got a lot to consider now. Today was deffinatly a Monday....

[Max Capacity]

Junk yard head/engine may be...

 

Damn...

 

Will the dealer in Rutland give you a discount on parts...if you tell him your story, sometimes the guys at the parts counter will help you out if you ask.

 

There are on line dealerships that will give you 25% off.

 

Talk with Benny here

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/4-99-flat-rate-shipping-249144.html

[BarManBean]

Sorry, bud. Let me know what head parts you end up needing (if any).

[birkhoff]

So got to class today and pulled the gears. Did another comp test all around and still got nothing on the passenger bank (1+3). Went to the driver side and got about 65 on both 2 and 4. Then moved on to the gears. Started with the right (driver side) and immediately noticed oil leaking from outside the metal housing. Pulled it off and I belive it may have been one cutout to the right or left. Couldn't tell for sure but due to the oil leak I believe something was off. Tried to misalign the gear on purpose and it is deffinatly possible to get it on the wrong cutout. The went to the left side.

 

This is where things got ugly. The gear was difficult to get off and when I managed to get it off it was clearly wrong. For starters the dowel pin no longer exists. Pushed fully into the shaft. I have pictures I'll try and upload tonight but it's ugly. I can see on the sprocket where it was sitting and it appears to be just about 180 degrees off...

 

So clearly I need a new driver side sprocket. And a new passenger cam shaft. The cam shaft was long overdue since a previous mechanic stripped out the thread for the cam bolts so I couldn't get full torque on it any way. Now here's my question for you guys. Should I just buy a new cam shaft? I assume I will need to get new buckets and redo my valve lash... What else? Would I just be better off buying all new heads and having them around for parts? In case I get the new cam shaft in and find the valves are fucked now that it's correctly in time??

 

Got a lot to consider now. Today was deffinatly a Monday....

 

Well that's upsetting.

 

First things first: what do you mean by being 'one cutout' to the left? I don't recall there being more than one hole in the gear backplate. Anyway, only one hole can accept the dowel pin. If you can clean up the back of the gear with a file, you should be able to re-fit it and get the dowel pin in the correct spot. Inspect the seal surface and the backplate hole carefully prior to assembly.

 

You could probably drill and tap the pushed in dowel pin and pull it out. Replace with similar. I would call this a nothing-to-lose situation and you might just save all your labour resealing the cam basket and cover. However, if the cam nose thread is screwed up anyway, a new camshaft seems like the way to go. Currently $165 at Heuberger. In the best of all worlds you'd replace buckets at the same time. In the real world, unless they look suspect, I'd just let them mate with the new cam and deal with that 50K down the road. Or never.

 

Before making a final plan, I'd want to be sure the valves are OK. If you completely trust the leak down, then they are OK. If not, I'd put all the cams into neutral position and repeat the leak down on both sides.

 

If valves are damaged, new (used) head(s) may be the best strategy, but budget for more $$ -- decking the heads and new gaskets.

 

What do you think is up with the oil you found outside the cam seal?

[cSlenker802]

So here are all the pictures

 

http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p469/cSlenker802/Legacy%20GT%20Photos/C2DE325D-4F1E-48D9-957A-4D49C5B6F822_zpscx5t2v66.jpg

 

http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p469/cSlenker802/Legacy%20GT%20Photos/568250B7-5CE7-4BEC-8584-AB69A4FE5415_zps9rlemw2n.jpg

 

http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p469/cSlenker802/Legacy%20GT%20Photos/82A80BDB-DB32-4FF3-B7E3-03242E1B687C_zpskyfmlmvw.jpg

 

http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p469/cSlenker802/Legacy%20GT%20Photos/65B1F0E5-DAA1-483E-8D9D-7CD4283A77FE_zpspiwgy5cb.jpg

 

http://i347.photobucket.com/albums/p469/cSlenker802/Legacy%20GT%20Photos/24306C18-F36F-4F7C-B670-5A3F6C0AFB15_zpsztttrva1.jpg

[cSlenker802]

Junk yard head/engine may be...

 

Damn...

 

Will the dealer in Rutland give you a discount on parts...if you tell him your story, sometimes the guys at the parts counter will help you out if you ask.

 

There are on line dealerships that will give you 25% off.

 

Talk with Benny here

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/4-99-flat-rate-shipping-249144.html

 

Thanks for the heads up! My Subaru parts guy in Rutland is great so I'm sure he'll help me out when he hears about this...last time I was there it was for oil filters so he'll be just as disapointed as I am I've considered buying all new heads but I really rather not fork out the money for that. Especially with cam shafts being so reasonable... But we'll see

[cSlenker802]

Sorry, bud. Let me know what head parts you end up needing (if any).

 

I really appreciate it man....just out of curiousity how much were you looking to get for the heads as a whole? If you don't feel comfortable throwing out a price on here I'll pm you but I'm considering all my options at this point

[cSlenker802]

Well that's upsetting.

 

First things first: what do you mean by being 'one cutout' to the left? I don't recall there being more than one hole in the gear backplate. Anyway, only one hole can accept the dowel pin. If you can clean up the back of the gear with a file, you should be able to re-fit it and get the dowel pin in the correct spot. Inspect the seal surface and the backplate hole carefully prior to assembly.

 

You could probably drill and tap the pushed in dowel pin and pull it out. Replace with similar. I would call this a nothing-to-lose situation and you might just save all your labour resealing the cam basket and cover. However, if the cam nose thread is screwed up anyway, a new camshaft seems like the way to go. Currently $165 at Heuberger. In the best of all worlds you'd replace buckets at the same time. In the real world, unless they look suspect, I'd just let them mate with the new cam and deal with that 50K down the road. Or never.

 

Before making a final plan, I'd want to be sure the valves are OK. If you completely trust the leak down, then they are OK. If not, I'd put all the cams into neutral position and repeat the leak down on both sides.

 

If valves are damaged, new (used) head(s) may be the best strategy, but budget for more $$ -- decking the heads and new gaskets.

 

What do you think is up with the oil you found outside the cam seal?

 

Check out the pictures I posted above. If the dowel pin cut out is at 12 o'clock there are oil passages at 11 and 1. Then like 4 and 7? 5 all together including the dowel pin cut. I'm gonna pull the shaft out today and try to drill the pin out. Unfortunaly I'm thinking it pushed it's way into the actual cam shaft and made a larger hole so there may not be any replacing of the pin.

 

As for the new cam shaft, I can't believe how reasonable they are brand new. I'm a huge fan of ebay and paypal so I'll likely purchase it off a nearby seller on there to get it faster. Either way ill do the valve lash on that one intake cam. New buckets (unless for some reason I can get them in spec) but I should only have to do that one cam correct? The last mechanic checked and replaced any out of spec buckets when he was in there so everything else should be on point. Please correct me if I'm wrong in understanding this but at this point that's the plan.

[cSlenker802]

 

Before making a final plan, I'd want to be sure the valves are OK. If you completely trust the leak down, then they are OK. If not, I'd put all the cams into neutral position and repeat the leak down on both sides.

 

If valves are damaged, new (used) head(s) may be the best strategy, but budget for more $$ -- decking the heads and new gaskets.

 

What do you think is up with the oil you found outside the cam seal?

 

and to touch on the valves yes I'm sort of perplexed. No longer have a belt on it so doing a leak down is a bit trickier now but I guess is do-able. Reguardless, both times I leaked it down last week the results were great so I'm hopeful about my valves. Even though I was completely out of time I was still able to get good result so I'm thinking I may have gotten lucky. Because no matter where the piston was in the cylinder, I was able to get the valves sealed at some point. So I guess that's good.

 

Also on the driver side cam gear I think the oil was leaking from a passage in the gear becausw it was aligned wrong. Again go check out the pics I posted of it.

[Max Capacity]

I agree, with the pistons mid cylinder and all valves closed, the leak down numbers should be real good.

 

Good luck

[BarManBean]

I would think you should only need to check lash on the 4 buckets that interface with the cam, but honestly I don't think they will change. I think the buckets are more based on valve stem length than they are on cam thickness

 

BUT, if you are right there with feeler gauges in hand, not like it would be that hard to check the lash for the other cam.

[birkhoff]

Right, forgot about the oil return holes

 

You don't need the belt on for a leak down. Once the valves are in neutral position everything should be sealed. And you can safely move the pistons up and down wherever you want them. So a leak down is even easier without the belt. You can do all four cylinders at once!

 

Cam nose looks good, even on the bad side. Is there no way to drill and pull the pin in place? It would be great not to undo all the work you already did. If you end up pulling it, probably a new cam is the way to go given the thread is messed up in the nose. However, the exercise of pulling the pin may be helpful to others as a proof of concept exercise, even if you do it at the bench.

 

The back end of a numbered twist drill makes a good replacement pin. It won't be as hard as the one in there, but it will work. Mic the dowel and choose a size that is as close as possible. If undersize, seat it with some bearing mount loctite.

 

If you look at the rim of the cam gear, I think you will find a little mark on the outside -- it's been a while (obviously, I couldn't even remember what the back looked like) and I don't have a spare gear handy to check, but if you find it, I think you can confirm it aligns with the dowel pin hole. Before you mount the gear, make a mark on the plastic timing cover plate that points to the dowel pin. Then as you ease the gear on, align the notch on the gear with your mark. That will get you close enough to wiggle onto the pin. As I said before, fit everything by hand and do not use the cam bolt to pull things together.

 

You shouldn't need to change buckets, but of course check valve clearance once everything is back on. I wouldn't expect it to be out by much. The clearance is measured to the cam base circle, and that doesn't wear at all. The only difference will be the factory tolerance on cam grinds, which must be pretty good.

 

I know this looks pretty bleak right now, but if you are planning to be a mechanic, this kind of challenge is what separates the good ones from the parts swappers. Done with care and intelligence, a repair like this will last the life of the engine.

[birkhoff]

It occurred to me I should follow this up. I don't think you are going to be able to hit centre close enough on that pin to drill it out. I would drill and tap it, thread in a bolt and then use a slide hammer to pull it out. Maybe start drilling for a #10-24. If that breaks off or pulls out, move up to 3/16 if you can still squeak it in. IIRC, the pin is about 6mm (or 1/4 inch) in diameter.

 

If you still can't get it out and end up with an oval hole, that would count as a FAIL but the (dis-) proof-of-concept would still be valuable for the rest of us.

[starionesir]

Agree with birkhoff. 0% leakdown? I've done a ton of leakdown tests and never got 0. Always get some % of leakage. Engine can't be sealed that tightly.

[cSlenker802]

Agree with birkhoff. 0% leakdown? I've done a ton of leakdown tests and never got 0. Always get some % of leakage. Engine can't be sealed that tightly.

 

Yeah I was sort of confused with that low of a number too... Just figured it's better then high leak down so went with it. I went to 90 psi is that too high pressure maybe? Also I don't think it was 0% on the dot. But deffinatly below 5%. Maybe 1-3%. I'm gonna leak it down again when it's re-assembled anyway.

[xt2005bonbon]

I used 100 psi when I did my leakdown test. Easier to figure out how much it is leaking.

[cSlenker802]

Also ordered a new cam shaft and gear for the other side yesterday. Hopefully they will show up late this week but I'm not holding my breath on it. Checked valve clearances before removing the cam. All were in spec as the last mechanic claimed they were. Buckets looked good too. When I get the new cam shaft I will torque it down and recheck them. Got my fingers crossed they will be ok. Also the lobes on my cam shaft looked great. Little to no wear. Might post pics later...

[cSlenker802]

I used 100 psi when I did my leakdown test. Easier to figure out how much it is leaking.

 

Ok well at least I wasn't using too much pressure then our fancy snap on set in school has a % reading on it so I read 90 online and got a good reading with it...so naturally sent it lol

[cSlenker802]

It occurred to me I should follow this up. I don't think you are going to be able to hit centre close enough on that pin to drill it out. I would drill and tap it, thread in a bolt and then use a slide hammer to pull it out. Maybe start drilling for a #10-24. If that breaks off or pulls out, move up to 3/16 if you can still squeak it in. IIRC, the pin is about 6mm (or 1/4 inch) in diameter.

 

If you still can't get it out and end up with an oval hole, that would count as a FAIL but the (dis-) proof-of-concept would still be valuable for the rest of us.

 

I'm gonna bring and home and try drilling it for shits and giggles I'll let you know how it goes. But got a new cam shaft on its way anyhow.